IDML ISSUE - Layout completly changenged

[frederic.piton]

Hi all, again...

I have a big issue when saving my INDD file to IDML, when I want to send it to our translator.

Some Layouts totaly changes!! Texts blocs aren't alligned anymore, our out of layout, or the pages becomes asymetrics... that's make we have to start back all our job when we put some layout into translation.

How can it happend... for a 460 pages book, it's not possible to loose so many time with this kind of problem... please see pictures.

[Manan Joshi]

This can happen with IDML, i would suggest you never depend upon IDML for collaboration. The only option for that is to use the same version of InDesign at all ends. Using IDML is bound to have these issues and there is no way you can predict or avoid this, it will hit you when you least expect

-Manan

[frederic.piton]

Hi Manan, thank you for your message, I know that...

But, when we work with a translator, that works on trados or Redokun, we don't have any choice to work with IDML files.

My thought is : how is it possible, with a professional expensive app like Indesign,  developped since... 15(20?) years, that all the community accept this fact -> IDML dosn't work, we can't really know why, and what you get if you use this format.

The problem I have here is on my own work station...  the IDML file doesn't go anywhere or dosen't be open or transformed by someone else.

If the problems has arrived with a file that was used and resevaed by another people, or on another version, I can understand the layout can be changed, but here, I save in IDML, I Re-opren directly the document, and all the layout has changed.

I think that adobe's engineers and developpers should stop working on improvements that do nothing more, come to the bases and ask them if the bases are good.

For example, something else ;o) : the ''books'' issues. When you flash a entire book, when you sync it, when you collect informations... All the PC stops and de mouse lags ! And that, as long as I remember... I allready think that's a big joke that, in 15 years, engineers didn't find a solution to improve this simple part.

I don't kow if you have a PC, when flashing a book  on mine, indesign only uses 1 Core to do his flashing job, and here, with 10 files open, only 8Gb RAM memory... There, that's something to improve !!... But no, all the comunity, and adobe's developers seem's to find it 'normal'... It's like that...

As creative people, and considering the time I pay to use the Adobe's apps. I can't accept the ''It's like that'' answer. It's not professionnal, and Adobe products professionnal App's for professionnals developpers shouldn't accept the ''It's like that'' answer...

So, jJust like that, when we work with a translator, that works on trados or Redokun, we don't have any choice to work with IDML files.

Have a nice day 😉

[Derek Cross]

The next version of InDesign will have a document share for review feature, due for release on June 15.

[frederic.piton]

Hello Derek, thank you for your answer. It's a good news 🙂

[jmlevy]

Bonjour,

Je trouve étonnant que la mise en page change à ce point lors de l'export idml. En ce qui concerne, le changement de format de page, es-tu certain de ne pas avoir utilisé à un moment l'outil pages sur la page qui pose problème ?

As-tu essayé de réinitialiser les préférences ? Il faut relancer l'application tout en appuyant simultanément sur Maj, Ctrl, Alt [Windows], Maj, Ctrl, Alt et Cmd [Mac] jusqu'à l'apparition du message demandant confirmation.

[frederic.piton]

Bonjour JM, et MErci 🙂

Oui, j'i tout essayé, jusqu'aux changements dans les gabarits, j'ai encore passé la journée dessus...

Ce n'est pas un changment de format de page, c'est la page de droite du gabarit qui change, en en fait, les coordonnées des blocs changent également en fonction de ce décallage.

A n'y rien comprendre, car, j'ai plusieurs ''liés'' 1 dépendant de l'autre et parfois d'un troisième.

J'ai essayé de restreindre les gabarits à leur plussimple expression, et, la plus simple expression est de tout mettre sur un seul gabarit de base, là ça passe...

Donc ici, pour envoyer à la traduction, j'ai dégagé tous lien avec des gabarits, et laissé uniquement la mise en page active, les gabarits seront trduits dans un autre fichier qui leur seront consacré.

Comme je le disais plus haut, ça fait bientôt 15 ans que je travaille avec indesign, que j'ai lâché un moment pour m'amuser avec le Web. ici, j'ai eu de manière consécutive, deux volumes de près de 500 pages avec un index à réaliser sur chaque de +/- 3000 entrées, + un gros catalogue 300 pages avec utilisation intensive des ''livres'' et de leur fonctions, ce même catalogue 1 fois traduit, puis décliné en un 500 pages (+/- 45 fichiers Innd dans le livre) et ce même document à traduire...

Et bien, je peux te dire qu'on voit très clairement les limites des outils indesign. à partir du moment où il faut se mettre à la recherche d'extension et ce genre de choses, c'est qu'il y a de sérieux manquements au programmes (ce que je sais depuis longtemps concernant indesign).

Et tou cela, sans pouvoir contacter qui que ce soit faisant partie de la team développement Adobe.

Et comme dit plus haut, ce n'est pas normal que le programme en soit toujours là où il en est, vu le nombre de demandes de la part de la communauté, et ce n'est pas normal non plus que les gens,l'équipe adobe se content d'un ''c'est comme ça'', quand on parle des lags en flashage PC, des problèmes avec l'IDML, ou de fonctions toutes bêtes qui ne sont pas intégrées.

Alors, comme pour un site internet, une fois que ton programme est criblé d'extension et que ça plante, on est parti pour la gloire pour arriver à savoir qui fait merder quoi... et je ne trouve pas ça normal. Surtout quand on voit le coût des programmes...

Bref, merci pour ton aide 🙂

[Derek Cross]

The forthcoming Indesign Share for Review feature is described on the InDesign Secrets website:

https://indesignsecrets.com/creativepro-week-attendees-get-a-sneak-peek-at-indesigns-new-share-for-r...

[frederic.piton]

Thank you for your link Derek, I would like to ask it to you.

So, I think it's a good idea to develop this kind of possibility, and if they thiks about linking this features with main Translate assisted app, it would be great.

Best regards,

Frederic

[Joel Cherney]

I've seen these kinds of of issues many times, as 100% of my InDesign work is preparind INDD for translation, and desktop-publishing of IDML after translation. Certain formatting techniques are more likely to create problems, not because of the actual technique used, but because the IDML filter written for the TM tool in question is more likely to fail on it. For instance, one TM tool (I recall that it was Wordfast) had an IDML filter would ignore all ICML assignments. Every TM tool has flaws, and knowing what those flaws are will help you prepare your INDDs in such a way as to prevent these glitches. 

However, if you're experiencing these formatting problems when you're merely exporting IDML and immediately re-opening it on your own workstation, you're not experiencing a TM-tool IDML-filter issue. It's an issue with InDesign's own filters, either at IDML creation or at IDML import. Looking at the way stuff is shifting in the images you included with your original post, I would start by just isolating a single spread in a separate file, testing it by exporting IDML and then seeing the objects shift in the resulting file, then heading over to indesign.uservoice.com and posting an explanation of the problem, accompanied by the INDD. By doing so, you can also identify what elements in your layouts are causing the problems upon re-importing the IDML:

1. open the single-spread INDD.
2. delete any one design element.
3. save the INDD.
4. export IDML.
5. re-open IDML... is the resulting file broken?
   If yes, go back to 1 and try again.
   If no: congratulatons! You found the element that the IDML-filter is choking on, try rebulding it using a different formatting technique. 

[frederic.piton]

Hello Joel,

Thank you for your complete answer.

As I said in another reply, I try of course to isolate the problem, trying to decrease the number of 'linked' master pages, and when I arrive at 1 master page and having an idea of the object that causes problem... => I try the process on another master page and, there, the problem stays, for another the problem desapear,... impossible to isolate it. @ last, I delete all my master pages, and give All the pages of my documents the [WITHOUT MP] Style. (I don't know all terms in english)

I try Indesign uservoice for other problems, proposal... never had any reaction... it's impossible to have contact with a developper or someone who hear your problem directly... In the comunity, You hope that someone will read your subject... On uservoice too... You hope having enought votes to be read by someone of Adobe...

If there's some tool to see and/or debug the problems... If there's a direct link with developpers that take your file and analyse it... if, if... I hate loosing my time, even much more when I'm in full production... 

It's not acceptable, professionnal app doing homebrew things, having to loose time searching why this, or this doesn't work... And finaly asking poeple who are not from Adobe, to spend time to find something for others.

I would be curious to see the reaction of my client if I said : ''Ok, your job doesn't work as expected, please ask friends or your comunity or your printer if they can help you, I sell you the project, that's all'' 🙂

And yes, it's an issue with Indesign filters, each time I send something to a translator (they uses Trados). The file comes back identicaly.

This problem with Master pages is not new for me, I've allready see it with a completely diffrent project of the same client. and project that uses Multiple Masterpages with a based masterpage too...

In futher project, I had to creat my masterpages in diffrent ways, with less creativity an possibilities to earn time changing the beses of the layout.

In fact, if Adobe creates a way, for the books, to use Master stylesheets, In stead of Masterpages, the file would be lighter, and the project too... posted on uservoice... never had any reaction... ;o)

Best regards,

Frederic

[Sheena Kaul]

Hi there,

I am hoping that your issue has been resolved till now. If not, please feel free to update this thread else let us know if any of the suggestions shared above helped you or not.

Regards,

Sheena

[frederic.piton]

Hi Sheena,

Not solved, no. I had to delete all Master_layouts out of my documents > save them in IDML to have something +/- correct, and thant, after translation reintegrate all of my documents with master_Layout...

Many loss of time !

[Derek Cross]

Which version of InDesign and OS?

Does your translator use the same version of InDesign as you and are you sure s/he has identical fonts?

[frederic.piton]

The last version, and at least 3 versions since I've posted this issue.

The translator have nothing to make with that issue : when I reopen my 'just saved'' idml, I have the problem.

[Derek Cross]

Can you repost with a new thread, clearly stating the exact version of InDesign and OS and detail the issue you're having.

[frederic.piton]

Too late Derek, Thank you. The problem exists since 12 June... we are in september.

If you want to see the problem, the first post contains screenshots of the isue. It's clear enough (windows 10, and the INDD versions sinces ... march, the first time I saw this problem)

But so, It doesn't matter now, the job is nearly done by my side. I've lost many time here and on Indesignvoice, explaining and waiting for an answer, and many time deleting all master layouts in my 53 files. (and thanw builkding ma catalog abck in a second language).

What I just want to say here is : I have NO support of Adobe on this issue, nothing.

And the Adobe employee that comes 2 weeks after the tread saying  'hello, can you please close your tread'' is not good for frustrating peoples that have issues like that.

What I mean : paying for licences since 2002, and having NO contact with someone who works for adobe when you have issue is just a big joke, not normal, and not commercial !

And users takes that as 'NORMAL' that Adobe gives no support for paying programs : ''ask the community''... wow !

Not a support ticket, not a place to contact engeeners, not a place to post a file with issue and someone who takes this file and analyse... No... And during this time, I lost tu much time finding a solution to my problem and not working on my client's catalog...

I can't accept that... We are a small structures, 1 hour counts for us.

[Derek Cross]

Well you can either spend your time complaining or, do as I suggested, and start a new thread with the details I asked for so that the next time you (or others) need to undertake this process we can (hopefully) come up with a solution.
Over to you!

[frederic.piton]

Lol, sorry Derek, 'HOPE' is good for churches...

I'm waited for a solution on june 12 but there's no  adobe employee manifestation or solution... I don't know why now there's something new or an interest...

My layout is simple, The layout changes between INDD and IDML, but not only the layout : the pages position in double page. and that's the major problem, and a programming problem !! 'cause its impossible to place 2 pages like this in indesign.

@Sheena_Kaul, adobe employee ''HOPE too'' there's a solution, I just tell her that were not... ;o)

[Tony5C2A]

Salut Frederic!

I've got the exact same issue, that's a real pain and making the whole translation process very unpractical. 

With Trados, there are no other options, we have to IDML files as you said, there is no way around that...

I was hoping to find a solution in here, apparently there's no solution to that issue.  I just cannot understand why all text alignment, etc are completely mayhem in the IDML files..

Feel free to update us if you found a solution to this?

Cheers

[frederic.piton]

Hi Tony, I understand the pain this situation can cause.
The only ''solution'' I've found is to erase all the ''template'' and ''main template'' (I don't know the translation for ''Gabarit'' into french) and than I save and send my IDML to translation.

When I recieve the files back, I do a synchronisation with a file that contains all the template,  re-assign the right template the the pages, and than save to INDD file...

I saw that it's possible to unpack an idml file, with winRAR for exemple, and in this unpaked folder there's xml files. When my job will be closed, I will go in thos XML files and try to identificate if there's a way to find the changement, or what's the cause of this problem.
I have to try the v16 version of indesign and see if the problem is allready there, too.

If I find something, I can tell you, no problem.

Regards,

Frederic

[Johanes]

Hello,

I think you should try to delete Character Styles that came with imported text. Then export to IDML.

All the best!

[frederic.piton]

Hello Johanes and thank you.

There's no character style imported. The Layout is completely clean and new, and I've created all the styles.

Thank you and best regards,

Frederic

[Laubender]

Hi Frederic,

don't know if this will change something for you, but I would do a Save As to the same document name before the export to IDML. That could perhaps clear the internal structure of the document a bit before the export filter for IDML takes over.

Just a thought…

Regards,
Uwe Laubender

( ACP )

[frederic.piton]

Hallo Uwe,

Tht doesn't work , save, save as, save a copy...

The only thing I've found to do before exporting is erasing all the template and just keep all the text that have to be translated.

Regards,

Frederic