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InDesign Backwards Compatibility in CS5 an MAJOR issue

New Here ,
May 18, 2010

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I am a print designer who works in InDesign. I bought CS3 Design Premium in late summer of 2008. Shortly thereafter CS4 came out, but after just having forked out a big chunk of change, I decided against upgrading to CS4 right away. Recently I considered upgrading but then heard CS5 was coming out so I decided to postpone the upgrade and wait for the new software. I've just checked out the trial version of CS5 InDesign and after speaking with Adobe Support have come to the conclusion that I can't upgrade to CS5. Why? BACKWARDS compatibility to CS3. The previously offered export features that supplied a path for backwards compatibility via an .inx file are gone.

I design freelance for a lot of different customers and once the design is complete, I have to deliver the InDesign file along with all associated fonts ad images to my clients. Most of my clients are still on CS3. If I upgrade to CS5 I will instantly not be able to work for 2/3 of my clients, as I will have no means by which to save a file backwards to CS3. I was informed by Adobe support that I would need to buy CS4 and CS5, as I could save my CS5 file in the IDML format and open it in CS4 and then I could save the file from CS4 as an INX file and open that is CS3. ARE THEY INSANE??? First off that requires keeping 3 version of InDesign up and running on my machine all of the time and secondly, why should I have to buy CS4 when I'm paying an additional fee to upgrade to CS5 because I didn't upgrade from CS4? This is so screwed up that it has to be an oversight---please tell me there is a patch in the works!!!

PS- I've never posted to a forum before, so if I have broken any rules of forum etiquette or offended in any way, I offer my apologies now and if I (and the Adobe Support staff I spoke to) have overlooked something, please enlighten me!

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Correct answer by BobLevine | Most Valuable Participant

Just semantics, Cynthia.

Retail, commercial. Same thing.

Upgrades are exactly the same as their full commercial/retail counterparts except for the price.

Adobe also has student and academic pricing.

The link I supplied you with is for the Mac CS3 to CS4 Design Premium upgrade and assumes that you have one of the CS3 suites.

Bob

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InDesign Backwards Compatibility in CS5 an MAJOR issue

New Here ,
May 18, 2010

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I am a print designer who works in InDesign. I bought CS3 Design Premium in late summer of 2008. Shortly thereafter CS4 came out, but after just having forked out a big chunk of change, I decided against upgrading to CS4 right away. Recently I considered upgrading but then heard CS5 was coming out so I decided to postpone the upgrade and wait for the new software. I've just checked out the trial version of CS5 InDesign and after speaking with Adobe Support have come to the conclusion that I can't upgrade to CS5. Why? BACKWARDS compatibility to CS3. The previously offered export features that supplied a path for backwards compatibility via an .inx file are gone.

I design freelance for a lot of different customers and once the design is complete, I have to deliver the InDesign file along with all associated fonts ad images to my clients. Most of my clients are still on CS3. If I upgrade to CS5 I will instantly not be able to work for 2/3 of my clients, as I will have no means by which to save a file backwards to CS3. I was informed by Adobe support that I would need to buy CS4 and CS5, as I could save my CS5 file in the IDML format and open it in CS4 and then I could save the file from CS4 as an INX file and open that is CS3. ARE THEY INSANE??? First off that requires keeping 3 version of InDesign up and running on my machine all of the time and secondly, why should I have to buy CS4 when I'm paying an additional fee to upgrade to CS5 because I didn't upgrade from CS4? This is so screwed up that it has to be an oversight---please tell me there is a patch in the works!!!

PS- I've never posted to a forum before, so if I have broken any rules of forum etiquette or offended in any way, I offer my apologies now and if I (and the Adobe Support staff I spoke to) have overlooked something, please enlighten me!

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Correct answer by BobLevine | Most Valuable Participant

Just semantics, Cynthia.

Retail, commercial. Same thing.

Upgrades are exactly the same as their full commercial/retail counterparts except for the price.

Adobe also has student and academic pricing.

The link I supplied you with is for the Mac CS3 to CS4 Design Premium upgrade and assumes that you have one of the CS3 suites.

Bob

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 18, 2010

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You've echoed the sentiments of many. It's really bad support from Adobe regarding backward compatibility in InDesign.

But even if you did have CS4 and wanted to go back to CS2, you'd have to open your INX file in InDesign CS3 and export again to INX (there was a double downsave trick of editing the INX file)

But regardless, Adobe has only ever allowed one version back compatibility for InDesign.

Frustrating.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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InDesign has NEVER allowed more than one version backsave via INX. Beginning with CS5 you can save back to CS4 using IDML but this is horrible workflow anyway.

Saving back means lost or badly mangled features and reflowing text and going back two versions makes even worse. If you absolutely have to work with people in CS3 then you'll need to work with that version whether or not you decide to upgrade.

I currently have CS3, CS4 and CS5 installed just in case. And I'll repeat what I've said over and over again. I support Adobe 100% in the way this is handled. Major new feature make it nearly impossible to keep compatibility from one version to another.

Finally, if you buy CS4 now (Amazon still has some stock) you may be eligible for a free upgrade to CS5. But using that when you know the end result must be a CS3 file is not a very efficient way to work.

Bob

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Explorer ,
May 18, 2010

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If you think this is an Adobe only issue, think again. Quark is the same way, only one version back will it save to.

Maybe Markzware could do an InDesign version of their MarkzTools they have for Quark that has this feature of saving to lower versions and allowing you to open higher version Quark documents.

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New Here ,
May 18, 2010

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I am all for working with better workflow practices and I understand that saving files backwards is less than ideal but Adobe needs to look at the real world uses of their software as well. I have to work with firms that aren't upgrading now--especially with the economy we are now in--and most of the items I design for them are ads-- one page- nothing too complex--really nothing fancy. I obviously wouldn't save a book or a very complex document backwards in this way, but simple things have translated just fine in the past. In the real world we hit situations like this.

I bought my software 21 months ago and in this time Adobe has expected me to upgrade twice--I haven't even finished expensing  the initial cost of the software on my books yet. Upgrading that often just can't happen in a small firm--it's prohibitively expensive for a one man shop.
So now from what I understand, to do this properly, I am supposed to buy the upgrade and keep both versions running on my machine and track with every client which version of the software I need to be working in. What happens when I have to add an employee? I will have to buy the CS3 version of the software in addition to the CS5 Suite because otherwise we can't work on the same files. I'm finding this frustrating.
Your suggestion of buying CS4 from Amazon is a good one. I will look into that further.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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Cynthia, did you read the responses?

If you want to work with people in CS3 you'll need to use CS3. Folks on CS4? Same thing.

Nobody is forcing you to upgrade. In fact, if you're clients aren't upgrading and you need to be part of a collaborative workflow, then you shouldn't upgrade. Again, the new features are so advanced from one version to the next, in many ways it's like a new application.

You elected to get into this business and software upgrades, as well as hardware upgrades are cost of doing business. I find it rather amazing when I read comments such as yours. So let me ask you a question.

Do you do one thing for a client and then never call them again looking for more business? By releasing new products, that's really what Adobe is doing. Like you, me and most of the others on this forum, they're in business to make money. Adobe does that by creating products that they hope people will buy. I find it funny that the many of the same people that rush out to the Apple store to buy the latest and greatest are the same ones to complain that Adobe puts out upgrades too quickly.

If people felt that way about other technologies, we'd still be watching radio...in black and white.

Bob

Edit: Please note that if you have the CS3 suite you must upgrade the suite. I have an article on my site with some advice on buying CS4 now wth links to Amazon and the Adobe article which discusses free upgrade eligibility: http://theindesignguy.com/purchase-advice.shtml

Buying CS4 Design Premium now and gettng the free upgrade would save you more than $200.

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Mentor ,
May 18, 2010

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Cynthia Ryan Graphic wrote:

I am all for working with better workflow practices and I understand that saving files backwards is less than ideal but Adobe needs to look at the real world uses of their software as well. I have to work with firms that aren't upgrading now--especially with the economy we are now in--and most of the items I design for them are ads-- one page- nothing too complex--really nothing fancy. I obviously wouldn't save a book or a very complex document backwards in this way, but simple things have translated just fine in the past. In the real world we hit situations like this.

I bought my software 21 months ago and in this time Adobe has expected me to upgrade twice--I haven't even finished expensing  the initial cost of the software on my books yet. Upgrading that often just can't happen in a small firm--it's prohibitively expensive for a one man shop.
So now from what I understand, to do this properly, I am supposed to buy the upgrade and keep both versions running on my machine and track with every client which version of the software I need to be working in. What happens when I have to add an employee? I will have to buy the CS3 version of the software in addition to the CS5 Suite because otherwise we can't work on the same files. I'm finding this frustrating.
Your suggestion of buying CS4 from Amazon is a good one. I will look into that further.

DISCLAIMER: I'm an Adobe stockholder. REALITY: My holdings are probably in the same proportion as the number of bits it takes to store a period character (".") on an Internet server is to the entire Internet's storage capacity. So, while I may have some self-interest here, it's not driving me to encourage you - or even all the participants on this forum - to buy more software than you want to or need to.

If you're simply interested in test-driving a new release, you can do that with the free 30-day trials. If you run out time, you can probably figure out a way to trick out your system to get another 30-day shot.

However, if you use the software commercially - either to train others, or to create new material or revise old material for clients or employers - you need to decide if you can continue to do this with the software versions you own, or if the commercial needs will require you to license new versions.

Regarding "expensing the initial cost of the software on my books" If I understand the US income-tax policies, purchases under a rather modest amount can usually be expensed in the year of purchase. If, because of your accounting method or preference, you're using a longer expensing time period, you might want to reevaluate your approach. If you attribute a portion of the software cost to each project you use it on, and, in this case, in 21 months your work hasn't let you recapture the investment, they you may want to use that information to decide how to pursue more paying for the software, or decline that stream of work and forgo upgrading.

An alternate way to evaluate the software, especially as an employer of users, is to compare the product cost vs. how many more billable hours you and your workers can complete in a given time with it and without it, and, how competitively you can bid projects, due to the product's efficiency.

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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I dont really care what Abobe says. It is appaling that you can't back save. In InDesign. My freelances can't afford continual upgrades. Quite simply dont add new features at the sacrafice of alienating everyone who is on an older version. Or if you do KEEP a backwards path!

Adobe I love your products but in this instance you suck!!

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Then you shouldn't upgrade, either.

I'll take the new features over backsaving any day.

Bob

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Engaged ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Which is why I use Illustrator for 90% of my graphics projects. Now that it handles multiple art boards, it's even better. You can save back all day long (except the multiple pages).

I still need to use ID CS3 for any ID projects that interface with others, particularly with those on CS4 (80% of the freelancers and magazine staff I deal with -the rest are CS3). Easy to give a CS3 file to a CS4 user, and then get an .inx file back. Never had any issues in months of doing this.

Not a huge amount of practical feature differences either between CS3 and CS5, though I do use CS5 for all my inhouse projects that go directly to PDF.

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Enthusiast ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Bob: I respect your opinions the vast majority of the time but your support of the inability to open an ID at least one version back doesn't make sense. So what if CS5 has 500 new bells and whistles. So does AI and PS and I can open legacy files in either one. If I do a simple text business card with no graphics, anyone should be able to open it in any version of ID. Or at least one version back. If the new revamped AI and PS can open legacy files, certainly ID should be able to. It's clear that this is an option a large number of very vocal ID users would like to have. I grit my teeth every time I have to inx (idml now) a file for someone sitting next to me. It's nice that you think everyone should upgrade their apps every single time Adobe releases a new version. But most of us do business in the real world and that is not an option. I can only justify upgrading every other release. I try to stagger it so one machine is on 4 while the other is on 3. I put CS5 on my iMac and can't put 4 or 5 on my G5 since it's not intel based. So I have to get money together for a new imac and then the CS5 or decommision CS4 on one machine and move to the new imac. It's fiscal reality.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Illustrator's not the brightest light on the street for doing heavy-text docs, newsletters, etc.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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second'd, third'd, 4th'd 2

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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No, we should all upgrade as and when we can afford to, otherwise

nothing will ever move forward will it!

But at the same time Adobe has to be a recognise user needs. My 'off

site' freelancers can't and in fact some of

my sister agencies can't afford to spent £1000's a year on upgrades!

I work with agencies both large and small and all run different

versions! Get real!

Thanks and regards

Paul

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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$500 for a standard upgrade is only 50 jobs x $10. That's less than inflation in my fiscal opinion.

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Enthusiast ,
Feb 22, 2011

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I agree. Freelancers are struggling. You have no steady income and you're supposed to update at every single drop of a CS release. I'm moderately busy and I'm just scraping by. Profit margin is non-existant and the cost of everything (food, gas, paper, supplies) has gone up sharply. Can't raise prices all that much. Sometimes I think only Adobe experts are the only people making money. Feels that way sometimes.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Beg to disagree... the advancements in technology more than offset increased costs--witness the 'content aware' feature in Photoshop... that more than paid for the upgrade for the whole standard suite for me.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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I'm no expert, no Bob Levine by any means, but I always manage to easily pay for the 18-month upgrades, come hell and high water... it's a legitimate cost of my business, I feel.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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The basic point of this thread is that the lack of ability to save an InDesign file back to an older version is a problem that Adobe should address. Yes, in a perfect world everyone would have the latest version of the whole Creative Suite the moment it comes out, but that's not realistic, so as a favor to people who have spent the money to upgrade, there should be a way to save back to older versions. I think most people would see this as sensible. This has nothing to do with being an expert or seeing the value in upgrading.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Ok, good point. But if you've ever done any software programming, you'd appreciate why doing as you wish would result in even higher R&D costs with Adobe which in the end would come out of our collective pockets.

Pay me now or pay me later...

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Ah well you Americans are all rich so can afford all these upgrades!

Try paying about 9.6 dollars a gallon for fuel and then the rest

to the British Government because little old England is broke!

Hell me thinks I am going to emigrate to the States. All that wide

open space singing "home, home on the range..."

Paul Phillips

Arclight East Ltd

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Guaranteed you won't miss a beat, if obama has anything to do with it.

This country's going the same route as your majesty's.... seems we don't know how to understand history books over here any more, at least not in washington, d.c.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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I actually do some programming for websites (php, html, css, mysql) as well as iPhone development, and so I can appreciate the extra work it takes to implement extra features, however I don't believe that Adobe has left this functionality out because of the added cost of development. More likely it a business decision. They must believe that not allowing people to save backwards will put pressure on others to upgrade.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Oh oh…now we've slid into politics. Yikes!

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Feb 22, 2011

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bsnebold wrote:


They must believe that not allowing people to save backwards will put pressure on others to upgrade.

More consipiracy theories. Keep 'em coming.

Bob

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Feb 22, 2011

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bsnebold wrote:

there should be a way to save back to older versions    

There is. You export to IDML or INX depending on how far you have to go back.

Bob

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LEGEND ,
Feb 22, 2011

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bsnebold wrote:

The basic point of this thread is that the lack of ability to save an InDesign file back to an older version is a problem that Adobe should address. Yes, in a perfect world everyone would have the latest version of the whole Creative Suite the moment it comes out, but that's not realistic, so as a favor to people who have spent the money to upgrade, there should be a way to save back to older versions. I think most people would see this as sensible. This has nothing to do with being an expert or seeing the value in upgrading.

But the point is that there IS a way to backsave. It's the Export to .inx/.idml. The complaint is there is no way to backsave from all versions of ID to ALL previous versions, rather than just the single most previous version.

I sympthatize, to a degree, with users who think they cannot afford to upgrade with every release, though I also am a firm believer in budgeting for known business expenses. I've suggested in the past that there should be some mecahnism for purchasing an older version license along withthe current upgrade, but I don't believe it should be free.

But more to the point, realisitically, there are certainly hundreds of users who don't upgrade every cycle, probably thousands, but how large a percentage of ALL users dopes that represent? Of those users, how many actually need or want to backsave more than a single version? Currently there are 270 posts in this thread, which is a lot, but there aren't 270 unique users participating, and not evryone posting is complaining. To add the ability to backsave to all versions (and anything less than ALL versions will simply move the argument to "why can't I back save to version x-1"), if it's even possible, is going to be VERY expensive in terms of engineer time and effort. Who pays for that? Ahould all the users for whom this is not a problem be subsidizing the small group who want it? Would any of you be willing to pay twice as much for your upgrades? You already say you can't afford the current price.

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Contributor ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Amen... sounds like zactly what I said before, but in far fewer words!

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 22, 2011

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A conspiracy takes more than one player. In this case we're only talking about one: Adobe. So it's not a conspiracy theory, just a guess.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Feb 22, 2011

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Fiscal reality doesn't just exist for us. It exists for Adobe, too.

And here's the reality. What people here are clamoring for is that Adobe should put out new versions, less often with less new features to support people who have no intention of spending money on a new upgrade regardless.

Here's a newsflash for you. The only thing that will create is less new customers, which will mean a)higher prices and b)less innovation and in turn even less new customers.

Sorry, but I stick to my stance here. Adobe needs to pay attention to those willing to spend money and for those who do choose to continually upgrade and wish to work with those who don't, keep the old versions installed and work with those when needed.

With apologies to non-North Americans, the price for the Design Premium upgrade every 18 months remains an absolute bargain. For less than the cost of a cup of coffee everyday you get all new versions of Bridge, Flash Professional, Fireworks, InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop Extended and Dreamweaver.

Bob

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Contributor ,
May 18, 2010

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Lo Bob. Talk about backwards workflow. I'm opening docs in CS4 just to activate the fonts required; then re-opening in CS5.

FAP & Explorer apparently are a long ways off in upgrading their font managers.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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I don't even bother with font managers anymore. No need for what I do.

Have you checked with them to find out when / if they'll be updating their plugins?

Bob

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Contributor ,
May 18, 2010

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Called Insider Software last week and one of their techies said "they've considerable work to do yet"... I take that as 2-3 months at best. Got an email response from Monotype/fonts.com that just said to subscribe to their newsletter to find out more.

That was quite helpful of them.

I refuse to consider Fusion/Suitcase because of major problems with them in the past, and from what I've heard fairly recently too. Just queried MasterJuggler people down in Texas.

;-(

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Participant ,
Jun 13, 2010

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peterpica wrote:

Lo Bob. Talk about backwards workflow. I'm opening docs in CS4 just to activate the fonts required; then re-opening in CS5.

FAP & Explorer apparently are a long ways off in upgrading their font managers.

FAP has updated plugins for CS5 now, didn't take them very long, although I notice now a lag in Illustrator when opening files.

In regards to the main topic, I would never give my customers the raw InDesign file anyway so it doesn't matter what version I am running. This is what PDFs are for. If a customer insists on being able to edit the file then they would have to keep up with the upgrades when I do.

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Contributor ,
Jun 13, 2010

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Oh yey, oh yey, oh yey!

Right; FAP was updated about 2 weeks ago; works great in InD & PS;

sloooow in Ily if at all.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Jeremy AB wrote:


In regards to the main topic, I would never give my customers the raw InDesign file anyway so it doesn't matter what version I am running. This is what PDFs are for. If a customer insists on being able to edit the file then they would have to keep up with the upgrades when I do.

So you wouldn't take a job creating a template if the client wants it in a version you don't own -- not that I think you should, mind you, but others here feel they should have the ability, and I agree that there should be a way to buy the previous licenses to accomodate them. I would never suggest "downsizing" a late version file as anything but an emergency solution.

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Disagree totally... giving an average customer a

template is like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a child. Lord

help the poor designer who has to support their creation (without

charging for support and fixup that is).

And when they are charged, they won't be a customer for long.

Experience can vouch for that on this end.

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New Here ,
Jun 14, 2010

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This is quite an assumption that clients are almost all

inexperienced. I work for a couple of large corporations that have

their own in-house production departments but still use my services

for the art and creative direction for foundational pieces. Their

staff knows exactly what to do with the InDesign documents I provide

them (and yes, they have purchased all of the fonts for their own

designers as well.) They have not all upgraded to CS5 yet. I'm now

trying to keep track of the various versions of InDesign I have on my

machine and which client has which version and NOT double click on the

files to open them accidentally in the wrong version and from this

point on always save the files with a code letting me know which

version I am working in. Personally, I'd rather see some backwards

compatibility rather than a new feature at this point as this is

cumbersome to say the least. At least I have all of the various

versions of InDesign now, so that is working.

Cyndi

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Does that mean you managed to get CS4 and the free upgrade to CS5?

Bob

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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That well and good, but when are you going to say enough is enough?

In 15 years when CS10 is available? That means you'll have 10+

versions on your machine, or... probably on several machines because

the OS of the future won't support the older apps. Talk about a

Pandora's Box!

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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peterpica wrote:

Disagree totally... giving an average inexperienced customer a 

template is like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a child. Lord 

help the poor designer who has to support their creation (without 

charging for support and fixup that is).


In my experience, using templates is a great way to work with less experienced users. Lock up what needs to be locked, provide the styles they need, and almost anyone can be trained to populate a template. I coach a student newspaper, and we have people putting together pages using a template who've never seen ID before they walk into the office. Do they get everything right the first time? No, but you 'd be surprised how fast they catch on if all they have to do is File > Place and use the guides or apply a style.

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New Here ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Yes, Thank you so much with your help on that. I'm now trying to

figure out the workflow so that I don't screw things up.

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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No argument IF customer is willing to pay for the template, which most

of them probably will not be.

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New Here ,
Jun 14, 2010

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I think everyone is really just asking for two versions backwards

compatibilty rather than one. Most people do eventually upgrade but

right now I am working with clients in CS4 and CS3 and only just got

CS5 myself. I would ask any client I was working with to upgrade if

they were still on CS2 or tell them they would have to work with at

least a CS3 file from me, as I would be unwilling to work that far

back--things have improved too much over that time.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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peterpica wrote:

No argument IF customer is willing to pay for the template, which most 

of them probably will not be.

If someone hires me to make a template it's the same as if they hire me to make a print-ready file. Why should it be free and why do you think they would expect that?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jun 14, 2010

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What's wrong with sending InDesign files to someone else? I have lots of projects that need to be coloborated with clients, proof readers, other designers, freelance designers etc. that I send out and receive back fairly regularly. We all use the same version of InDesign. Because one day one of the proofreaders unknowingly opened a file in CS4 and then the INX backsaving didn't work and I had to spend a day fixing the problem.

I could do with a backsave option. But I can get by without it.

What I really want is Adobe to build into the files what version to open the files with. Like that Soxy program does.

But dragging and dropping from Explorer into InDesign works, but only if I don't have the open document maximised.

Dragging and dropping to indesign is ace, for opening files. I have all my folders where all my files are on my taskbar and I can access them much quicker this way when I need them in a hurry.

Prior to InDesign CS5 being installed all the files opened in CS3 just fine. But now they all want to open in CS5 and I have to keep them at CS3 level to use with other people for the time-being.

So I do want a way to save backward, and I do want Adobe to build into the files what version to open the files in.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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In 15 years if I have a client who still needs version 2.0 files I'll continue to maintain a version 2.0 installation while I explain the benefits of upgrading to version CS14.

I do have clients still on CS3, and they don't have the hardware to support CS5, or enough volume at the moment to support the purchase of both hardware and software, so they'll stay where the are for the time being. That will be fine until they come up against a project that can't be done in CS3 for lack of features. At that point they'll probably say just give us the PDF and we'll let you handle the editing in future if it needs an update.

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Most customers of bucket-shop printers think that templates are free

in general, mainly because of their inexperience and/or experience

with basic apps only, i.e., word, publisher, etc., that do supply

canned templates.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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Eugene Tyson wrote:

So I do want a way to save backward, and I do want Adobe to build into the files what version to open the files in.

I don't really care about being able to backsave (probably becuse I have ID back to version 2 installed and don't NEED to work inthe wrong version), but I could really support a naming convention that would allow files to be opened by default in the correct version. Sometimes the first clue I notice is the "save" command opens the "Save As" dialog, and I've just spent an hour editing.

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New Here ,
Jun 14, 2010

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My experience is that there are plenty of clients out there who

understand that a custom template that works with their brand is going

to require a great designer and some money. Off the shelf templates

are what they are, and some are quite good, but they will never be the

kind of custom templates that the clients I am talking about are

looking for.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 14, 2010

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peterpica wrote:

Most customers of bucket-shop printers think that templates are free 

in general, mainly because of their inexperience and/or experience 

with basic apps only, i.e., word, publisher, etc., that do supply 

canned templates.

And there are plenty of free templates out there for those people. They wouldn't be calling on you for a custom template.

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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wanna bet?

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Contributor ,
Jun 14, 2010

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No argument there... but your clients are obviously of the

sophisticated genre.

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New Here ,
Jun 25, 2010

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Our design department has over ten artists, who don't all have a Mac computer with a multi-core processor. So while we are going to upgrade from CS3 to CS5, only a handful of us can actually use the new software until we can get the remaining new computers in house. This is a frustrating problem, because now there will be a steep learning curve, and we need to plan out who works on what project so that we don't get stuck. Having CS3 running on the new multicore computers (that automatically come with Snow Leopard) would be ideal, so that our learning curve could be more gradual and not as frustrating.

That said, I've done some experiementing, and although I've heard that CS3 does not work on the new Macs, I have found that it DOES. We're not using complex inDesign files with multiple pages, text linkages, and all that fancy stuff. So I'd like to share the news with possible readers out there to give it a try, it might not be so painful after all.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jun 25, 2010

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Who told you CS3 wouldn't work? CS2 would be a real crapshoot but CS3 should be just fine until you get everyone up an running.

Bob

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New Here ,
Jun 25, 2010

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I read that on some forums while researching CS5. Boy am I glad that

was wrong information!

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LEGEND ,
May 18, 2010

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There si no reason you can't continue to use your CS3 installation and also install CS5. Choose the version to suit the client.

Back-saving is at best a crapshoot as far as text reflowing, and you risk a lot of file damage if you inadvertently use a new feature. It just isn't a good workflow.

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Enthusiast ,
May 18, 2010

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I don't see keeping 3-5 versions of InDesign as being too much to expect of a freelancer. Also probably a good idea to keep Illustrator CS3 at minimum for the compatibility. I think it just comes with the territory. This isn't MS Word where years of format confusion all culminates into DOCX and everyone is sick to their stomachs because they've had years of compatibility on a stagnant format designed a decade ago. It beats digging ditches.

Real complaints could be directed at Freehand, not InDesign.

An auto mechanic has to buy new tools as new cars come out, but still has to use the old ones to work on older cars. A bad analogy maker has to make new analogies when car analogies no longer work, but still have to use car analogies to explain why my Epson GS6000 solvent printer, like gasoline in a car, performs differently with different substrates. There is a point where you have to tell your client that you don't work on Trans AM's if you can't handle keeping all the tools around.

We used to make steel in this country. We are talking about gigabytes that cost less than a couple of dollars and a couple of minutes application launch time. I've got hundreds of custom dies eating up space that I can't get rid of because the moment I do someone will need a job printed and cut with one. Physical space costs money, the storage space for 4 versions of InDesign will cost less than the delicious sandwich I will soon eat.

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Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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I also think it's ridiculous not to have a better workflow for backward compatibility. I've been working with InDesign CS5 and have yet to see a feature that suggests a new file format was necessary for this version. I suppose it's the dynamic/interactive content enhancements that are behind the format change. Since a key client is using CS3 and doesn't have any reason to upgrade, I'll likely set Bridge to default to the older software and may, on occasion, use CS5 when I have time to diddle around with it. It's tiring to be a working designer and see the Adobe fan club beat someone up because they're exasperated with the treadmill logic of the annual upgrade. Adobe could provide a compatibility mode of operation of InDesign, but they don't. That makes my job harder and I'm less likely to use the "wonderful" new scheisse I got in my Master Collection. Living on the bleeding edge doesn't pay my bills.

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LEGEND ,
May 18, 2010

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I'm a very small one-man shop, and I've yet to see an upgrade to InDesign that wasn't able to pay for itself many times over in very short order from increased productivity, not to mention some of the things that each version has brought that expand the repertoire of what's possible.

I was a heavy Quark user until 2002, but I've never looked back since the release of ID 2.0, and I've never felt an upgrade was merely window dressing. Some have had more new features than others, and CS5 seems more geared to multimedia people than print guys like me, but there's pleny of stuff there that makes my work go faster. The faster I get the paying stuff done, the more time I have to spend here, and I spend A LOT of time here.

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Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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(Eyes rolling) Good for you and your 14K posts. Glad you have time to make this work to your advantage and evangelize for big A too. I'm just tired of you happy campers telling others with real workflow issues that we should be just as gleeful as you.

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LEGEND ,
May 18, 2010

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I'm sorry you have issues. What makes you think I don't?

I upgrade when I can afford it, by budgeting, and I leave previous versions installed so I don't have backward compatibility issues. I still have clients who need CS3 files and some will need CS4. This is not rocket science.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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BJN3 wrote:

I'm just tired of you happy campers telling others with real workflow issues that we should be just as gleeful as you.

Nobody's telling anyone to be happy about anything. It's been explained over and over.

If you need a CS3 file, work in CS3. If you need CS4, work in CS4.

It's so simple I fail to grasp the complaints or the problem.

Bob

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Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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Thanks, I appreciate condescention in lieu of helpful advice

and consideration.

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Most Valuable Participant ,
May 18, 2010

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It's very useful advice. The fact that you don't see it that way doesn't change a thing.

Bob

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Explorer ,
Jul 04, 2010

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I simply cannot understand how somebody who is in business for themselves can claim that they're not turning over enough money that they can't afford an upgrade every 18 months or so. I do know there's more to an upgrade than the $199 cost for the box of software, but what are you in business for if you don't want the new tools that can give you a competitive edge?

I'm always on the edge of my seat waiting for "The Next Big Thing", whether software or hardware... even getting burned using beta software.

I'm 63 and have run my own graphic design and advertising agency businesses all my working life, in Australia and here in the US. With a positive attitude you can make a lot of money in this business.

Do I miss cutting Rubylith? Not likely. But, please, forget being a Luddite and enjoy this exciting business and its wonderful new creative tools.

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Contributor ,
Jul 05, 2010

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Yes, of course--about as much as I miss opaqueing (sp?) negs on a

light table!

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jul 05, 2010

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Doing what on who? 🙂

Bob

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jul 05, 2010

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Hey, my very first job!

The special red ink pens alone costed my first boss a couple of $100 a year. He sometimes complained me using too much of them, but if he needed to re-make a costly printing plate because of a missed dot I'd really done it.

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Advisor ,
Jul 05, 2010

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And don't forget if your hand slipped and you opaqued part of the film that you weren't supposed to, you had to scrape it off with an X-acto knife.

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Contributor ,
Jul 05, 2010

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Who's hand ever slipped?

My biggest problem was keeping cigarette ashes from dropping and

burning the film!

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Most Valuable Participant ,
Jul 05, 2010

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It taught me to read mirrored and upside down text as easy as anything. Not something I can use in everyday life, though -- I don't spend much time standing on my head behind shop windows.

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Contributor ,
Jul 05, 2010

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Was great being able to read quotation summation sheets and/or

purchase orders from the other side of the desk too... so you could

see what you were up against.

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LEGEND ,
May 18, 2010

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BJN3 wrote:

I've been working with InDesign CS5 and have yet to see a feature that suggests a new file format was necessary for this version. I suppose it's the dynamic/interactive content enhancements that are behind the format change.

I suspect multiple page sizes and span/split columns had a lot to do with changes, too, and those were very frequently requested features from ordinary users. Nobody here or at Adobe is holding a gun to your head and saying you must buy or use CS5. You say your clients have no reason to upgrade, so maybe you shouldn't either.

And lack of backsaving is neither limited to ID or a new issue. I'm not even sure that Publisher <shudder> is able to backsave more than one version, and Quark certainly can't -- and they won't let you keep the earlier versions installed anymore.

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