InDesign Backwards Compatibility in CS5 an MAJOR issue

[Cynthia_Ryan_Graphic]

I am a print designer who works in InDesign. I bought CS3 Design Premium in late summer of 2008. Shortly thereafter CS4 came out, but after just having forked out a big chunk of change, I decided against upgrading to CS4 right away. Recently I considered upgrading but then heard CS5 was coming out so I decided to postpone the upgrade and wait for the new software. I've just checked out the trial version of CS5 InDesign and after speaking with Adobe Support have come to the conclusion that I can't upgrade to CS5. Why? BACKWARDS compatibility to CS3. The previously offered export features that supplied a path for backwards compatibility via an .inx file are gone.

I design freelance for a lot of different customers and once the design is complete, I have to deliver the InDesign file along with all associated fonts ad images to my clients. Most of my clients are still on CS3. If I upgrade to CS5 I will instantly not be able to work for 2/3 of my clients, as I will have no means by which to save a file backwards to CS3. I was informed by Adobe support that I would need to buy CS4 and CS5, as I could save my CS5 file in the IDML format and open it in CS4 and then I could save the file from CS4 as an INX file and open that is CS3. ARE THEY INSANE??? First off that requires keeping 3 version of InDesign up and running on my machine all of the time and secondly, why should I have to buy CS4 when I'm paying an additional fee to upgrade to CS5 because I didn't upgrade from CS4? This is so screwed up that it has to be an oversight---please tell me there is a patch in the works!!!

PS- I've never posted to a forum before, so if I have broken any rules of forum etiquette or offended in any way, I offer my apologies now and if I (and the Adobe Support staff I spoke to) have overlooked something, please enlighten me!

[Eugene Tyson]

Peter - that's a valid point. Mostly I was giving simple examples of how it could be implemented. I'm not saying my ideas are flawless, but I'm trying to think on how this could be possible, instead of just slagging off adobe for not making it happen.

Although you make a good point, as I said earlier, I've had that happen when the client has different version of the font, line breaks change that way too, as does leading, and kerning, etc.

[peter_minneapolis]

Eugene Tyson wrote:

Definitely Bob, it's a good debate.

Whether you have the competive edge is not the point. The point is that not being able to swap files with someone with a prior version of indesign is crazy. People want the abilty. And if I have a client who has CS3 and I only have CS5 I'm not going to tell them to go see Bob, he has all the versions.

There's way more than two sides to this coin. I can use CS5 without using features that are not available in CS3. So if I do that, shoudln't be able to save it to CS3?

I'm not coming here and saying "it's stupid of Adobe" as I understand the problem. But I am trying to offere a reasonable alternative, like the ability to switch to CS3 features (basically turning off features that are new to cS4 and CS5) and putting the option to do that.

We can debate until the cows come home on the implications of doing such a saveback,which I understand the reasoning behind not having it. But I also understand the other side of the debate, where people want to be able to save back.

Clearly an option needs to be implemented - else make it absolutely positively clear to any user opeining a prior version of a file in a newer version of InDesign will not be able to save back more than one version. Because at the moment it's not clear.

(DISCLAIMER for Bob - I thought of quoting only parts of this post, but I find that my reply applies to multiple points, so I left it intact.)

There are valid business reasons for being able to work with files from prior versions of a software product, such as the ability to serve clients who haven't upgraded. There are valid business reasons for not spending development resources to enable compatibility of new and past versions. In the US automobile manufacturing industry, carmakers are required to maintain the availability of parts for some number of years back, to assure customers of a reasonable lifetime of use.

Adobe provides technical support for at least one or two prior software versions, but doesn't make past products available. Perhaps there's some way to make earlier releases available that won't cannibalize new-release sales. For example, maintain only one or two back-versions, and only sell them to purchasers of current releases. The cost would be small; development costs would be nil, the EULA could stipulate that no unfixed bugs will be fixed, back-version tech support would be limited to the same degree it is now, etc. Perhaps licenses could be tied the purchaser's current-version license, something like the way suite point products are authorized by a single license; this would entail some development cost.

Just a thought...

HTH

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[BobLevine]

If that were to happen, as a long time customer the only way I would go for allowing sales of prior versions without getting upset is if the total cost was the same as what was charged for the earlier full version plus the upgrade price to the new one.

That's the only fair way to handle this, IMO.

Bob

[Peter Spier]

peter at knowhowpro wrote:

... Perhaps there's some way to make earlier releases available that won't cannibalize new-release sales. For example, maintain only one or two back-versions, and only sell them to purchasers of current releases. The cost would be small; development costs would be nil, the EULA could stipulate that no unfixed bugs will be fixed, back-version tech support would be limited to the same degree it is now, etc. Perhaps licenses could be tied the purchaser's current-version license, something like the way suite point products are authorized by a single license; this would entail some development cost.

Nobody reads Post 34...

[peter_minneapolis]

P Spier wrote:

Nobody reads Post 34...

History is too soon forgotten. Thanks for the reminder!

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[peterpica]

I'm VERY old school, but I was always under the impression that

software/hardware manufacturers were required to support their

product(s) for 7 years.

Am I going too far back or is Adobe just new generation and making up

rules as it goes along?

[BobLevine]

There is no requirement that I know of like that. In fact, the only free support you'll get from Adobe is for installation.

After that you pay, or you're on your own.

Bob

[peterpica]

I wasn't talking about free support. I only remember the days back

with our Bedford RTCS setup. We had 7 systems, including a print

server, file server and a Monotype imagesetter. Bedford was required

at the time, by contract, to support our system (both HW & SW) for 7

years -- assuming that we had a continuous maintenance contract for

the duration. At that time, back in 1984, the contract was $56,500

annually.

sigh...

[Peter Spier]

Adobe sponsors these forums, the best support you're likely to find.

[peter_minneapolis]

BobLevine wrote:

There is no requirement that I know of like that. In fact, the only free support you'll get from Adobe is for installation.

It depends on what the meaning of "support" is. It could be as little as being able to provide replacement copies of the software at a fee, to registered users whose disks were lost or damaged; perhaps also hard copy manuals, and even an information base that customers could refer to in order to solve their own problems.

The Internet has made the persistent information repository a no-brainer.

After that you pay, or you're on your own.

Bob

I did tech support for a legendary early-on popular software company - at the time it was up there with Microsoft and Adobe - that grew by leaps and bounds. Once a customer called to ask about a section of the EULA that claimed to hold purchasers responsible for all distribution disks of each release purchased, even if they quit using the software, or upgraded to a later release. The specific problem for him was that the EULA claimed that it would be in effect for 50 years! He wanted to know if this was true, and how it would affect him if he did this... or that... with the disks.

I sent the question through channels that led all the way to legal and back. Sorry, but I forget what legal folks had to say about it. It became moot when the company failed through bad management and hubris, a few years after the poorly-developed newest release failed too many customers.

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

[moo1212]

Fact: This  discussion shows that Adobe has to worry about it. A  Backsave for many customers is very important that the discussion has  yet shown now.

I am looking forward to CS6 and whether it continues

In Germany we say "The  customer is king" and the company tries to meet the needs of customers. And not to say: take it or leave it

[Jongware]

Moo, just for the record:

This CS6, when it comes out, how many versions do you think it should save back?

(1) 1. Because you have CS5, don't you?

(2) 2. Because you might need to save CS4 as well?

(3) 6 -- in essence, all the way back to CS?

(4) 8 -- why not go all the way to InDesign 1.0?

[moo1212]

I think with the last two versions, there should be compatible

CS5 -> CS3
CS6 -> CS4
etc

[Harbs.]

If you think InDesign's back-saving is bad, try QuickBooks.

I'm trying to work with my accountant who has QB 2010, and I have QB 2009. There's no way to back save EVEN ONE VERSION! and AFAIK there's no upgrade pricing...

Harbs

[peterpica]

How about PageMaker 7.0?

[BobLevine]

Fact: This  discussion shows that Adobe has to worry about it. A  Backsave for many customers is very important that the discussion has  yet shown now

That is not a FACT. It is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

Don't hold your breath for any version of InDesign to save back more than one version. While it may happen one day, that day will undoubtedly be when Adobe runs out of major features to add.

Bob

[peterpica]

I think Quack Depressed tried that and you can see where it got them.

[peterpica]

Better identify your documents w/version in name (2,3,4,5) so you'll

know which InD app to use; otherwise docs will default to v5 on

opening and you'll be wasting time.

[Eugene Tyson]

BobLevine wrote:

Sorry John, but what kind of signal would that send to the LOYAL customers that shelled out the cash for the upgrades one at a time?

Bob, what about when Adobe offer that if you buy CS4 close to CS5 release you get CS5 for the upgrade price (or free)? Surely a new customer with CS5 should be afforded a licence for CS4, sort of reversing the idea that CS4 get CS5, why not have it be get CS5 get CS4?

I couldn't upgrade to CS4 because the Style Mapping bug in CS4 solely prevented me upgrading. I missed out on CS4 because of this. Adobe weren't going to fix this until CS5. But a few people kicked up a storm about it and 6 months prior to CS5 being released it was fixed in a patch. In the end the powers that be decided that with CS5 available in 6 months time that they'd wait. Now I don't have CS4 at all (except for trial) and I have no way of transferring back to CS3 if I need to.

I think that it was fine perhaps for one version save back up to CS4, it made sense reallly. Hardly anyone is using CS or CS2 now. But I have to say that with so many versions of InDesign about now, and with CS6 in 18 or months we're going to have people using CS3, CS4, CS5 and CS6 - probably.

I don't know about you, but I'd want a very safe and reliable way to save back down to any of those versions from CS6.

Just saying, that it's getting to the point now where people are happy with CS3 as it had probably the most advanced changes to the software (in my opinion), CS4 has some good things too, and CS5 is a bit of a candy coating.

So yeh, for CS6 I'd want a reliable way to backsave at least as far as CS3, but if it were to come to only backsave to CS4 I'd be up the swanny without a paddle.

Adobe really needs to start thinking about all the different versions of InDesign that there are and that people will have and how best to enable a reliable backsave for some people that simply can't upgrade (like I couldn't).

To me it makes sense to be able to backsave at least to CS3.

[BobLevine]

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on that on Eugene.

It's my opinion that Adobe should concentrate on adding new features to the product and not worry about backward compatibility.

And my advice to Cynthia stands for you too. It will be cheaper to buy CS4 from CS3 and then get the free upgrade.

As for the argument about getting an old version with the new, software companies have always given a free upgrade with the purchase of a retiring version after it's been announced. If they didn't sales would grind to a halt.

Bob

[Eugene Tyson]

I just think you should be able to backsave to previous versions if you want, instead of the silly dance that Adobe make you do get from CS5 to CS3 or from CS4 to CS2.

Nothing more frustrating that being limited by the software that you paid a lot of money for.

For now I'll have to keep working CS2, CS3, and CS5 and hope that CS5 hasn't got any major bugs as print deadlines don't care about software glitches.

[Mr. Met]

So far from what I know from experience (CS3 and 4) and what I'm reading about CS5, CS3 seems to be the most stable version of ID which is why I use it on my workstation and have CS4 on the freelance workstation. Bells and whistles are pretty useless if the app is buggy.

[Peter Spier]

Mr. Met wrote:

So far from what I know from experience (CS3 and 4) and what I'm reading about CS5, CS3 seems to be the most stable version of ID which is why I use it on my workstation and have CS4 on the freelance workstation. Bells and whistles are pretty useless if the app is buggy.

I keep seeing people post that CS4 is unstable, but I've never seen it. Must be a Mac thing.

[BobLevine]

I'm not exactly a power user with ID on my Mac but I've never experienced any instability problems either.

Bob

[Mr. Met]

Mostly font issues with fonts not auto-activating and reflow issues. Very slow save and redraw. Takes forever for a file to open in some cases. This is actually CS4 wide on my Intel 3.06 iMac running 10.5.8. Could be a Leopard thing for all I know. I run CS3 in Tiger on my workstation and it runs like a charm with very rare font conflicts. The iMac is a dog for font management with constant Helvetica conflict prompts every time I reboot after clearing cache and no way to remove fonts from sys folder when replaced with version of Helvetica I want to use.