License for Minion Pro font

[seedypoet]

I'm having a disagreement with someone who claims to be a publishing pro and I just need some clarification.

According to my understanding, in order to use Minion Pro commercially, I need to obtain a license which can be done by purchasing Adobe software which includes the font. Otherwise, I can only use it for personal or in-office use. Not for print or digital media accept as part of a graphic if it doesn't involve a continuous bitmap image in place of the font itself. Embedding to a file that will be printed is fine so long as I have a software license, or in lieu of that, the printer does.

What I need to know is, is it possible for me to purchase Minion Pro as a standalone product (no software package) from a third party and use it commercially like in a printed book or ebook? Or do I have to purchase it as part of Adobe software like InDesign or packaged with Font Folio or can I purchase it from a site like Fonts.com for commercial use?

[BobLevine]

You can license it through any authorized reseller or directly from Adobe.

Without a license you cannot use it at all.

[seedypoet]

Okay, but I haven't found a reseller that licenses it for commercial use. Do you know of any? For instance, the Monotype end user license agreement states that it cannot be used in a commercial product.

<<3. Embedding Font Software and Representations of Typeface and Typographic Designs and Ornaments.  You may embed the Font Software only into an electronic document that is not a Commercial Product, (ii) is distributed in a secure format that does not permit the extraction of the embedded Font Software, and (iii) in the case where a recipient of an electronic document is able to Use the Font Software for editing, only if the recipient of such document is within your Licensed Unit.

You may embed static graphic images into an electronic document, including a Commercial Product, (for example, a “gif”) with a representation of a typeface and typographic design or ornament created with the Font Software as long as such images are not used as a replacement for Font Software, i.e. as long as the representations do not correspond to individual glyphs of the Font Software and may not be individually addressed by the document to render such designs and ornaments.>>

Also, I don't see on Adobe.com where it can be purchased as a single font download.

[BobLevine]

Do you have a Creative Cloud account?

[seedypoet]

Well, the answer I am looking for is assuming I bought the font without a Creative Cloud account and without owning any installable Adobe software.

[BobLevine]

Here you go: http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/adobe/minion/licensing.html

A little pricy of course.

[seedypoet]

Yes, I saw that. But that is what's confusing. Despite the large price, at the beginning of the page it says, "Read the full EULA text for details about each license. If you have a usage in mind that’s not covered by these licenses, contact us and we’ll see what we can do." And then when you view the Minion Pro Desktop EULA (link at the bottom), it reads, "You may embed the Font Software only into an electronic document that is not a Commercial Product".

I emailed MyFonts and they confirmed that I couldn't use it in a commercial product like a book template for printing other books unless the printer had an adobe license, but hinted that no one would care.

I know this is a obscure point, but here's the meat of the issue:

If you are dealing in digital publishing, the chances of your printer not having an Adobe license is close to impossible. However, let's say I was dealing with an off-set printer who didn't use Adobe products (also highly unlikely, but theoretical), and I delivered the file in a non-Adobe format. Is it still legal use?

[Peter Spier]

seedypoet wrote:

I emailed MyFonts and they confirmed that I couldn't use it in a commercial product like a book template for printing other books unless the printer had an adobe license

That's a normal restriction for most fonts when you deliver the file separately (i.e. in a package) rather than embedded, as in a PDF.

[Dov Isaacs · Accepted solution]

In terms of the Minion Pro font family, you have the following choices:

If you are licensed for any Adobe software that either directly bundles the font or makes the font available for use via the Typekit service or if you license the font(s) via Fontspring Adobe ❯ Fontspring , you have a full license to use the font for either personal or commercial purposes. In all cases you can use the fonts in commercial designs, for printing, and for embedding in PDF, ePub, or EPS files. There are no royalties associated with distributing such PDF, ePub, or EPS files that have these fonts embedded or for use of these fonts in a commercial design (such as a logo, tee shirt, etc.)

If you are using Typekit, you can also use the Minion Pro fonts as web fonts using Typekit as the source (see instructions from Typekit). You cannot use the fonts dynamically in applications such as mobile device applications. And you cannot give or send the fonts as files to anyone or entity which is not already licensed for the particular fonts.

If you license the Minion Pro fonts from any other source, you may be subject to much more restrictive terms and royalties. Read the EULA (End User License Agreement) from such other sources.

          - Dov

[seedypoet]

Thanks. That answers my questions.

[Thomas Phinney]

Hey Dov, here is the thread Seedy is referring to: Comment - Quora

Do read the whole comment thread if you have time, although it may trigger XKCD syndrome.

I am the person “who claims to be a publishing pro” and know something about font licensing. You can read the discussion yourself and decide what you think. Seedy claims that the discussion here supports his points made in that thread.

[Dov Isaacs]

Hi Thomas,

Actually, if you license Minion Pro from the other sources you discussed in that thread (i.e., other that Fontspring), you are subject to their EULA which is nowhere as generous as Adobe's EULA (which is also the EULA for Adobe fonts licensed from Fontspring). Thus, if you want to pay through the nose for royalties for use of the font for commercial purposes, license from those other sources!

          - Dov

PS:     When is Fontlab 6 coming out?

          And what is the “XKCD syndrome?”

[Thomas Phinney]

True, you would be subject to their (Monotype’s) EULA. There is no question that Adobe’s EULA is more liberal to the customer. Particularly that new clause in the FontSpring version of the Adobe EULA, that allows temporarily giving a font to an output service even if they don’t have a license. I was just complimenting Chris on making that EULA change. Good all around.

That said, the OP is claiming that Monotype’s EULA does not allow any commercial use, which is simply untrue. Monotype does require extra payment for embedding in commercial ebooks, though, as I mentioned. Much of the font industry has followed Monotype’s lead on that, but of course Adobe has strong business reasons to continue doing otherwise, which benefits the customers.

P.S.

• FontLab VI is being worked on very hard, we will have an updated Public Preview by the end of the month.
• I was referring to the XKCD cartoon I hotlinked in my post, about being unable to ignore incorrect statements online.

[Dov Isaacs]

Of course, sending source files including fonts to a print service provider is really lousy print publishing workflow. Use PDF/X-4 with fonts embedded!

In terms of the harsh EULAs that require extra payments for almost any “commercial use¨ including distribution of PDF files with fonts embedded, such business tactics are seriously sending designers away from the traditional font foundries and into using all sorts of “freeware” fonts including those from Google and others. Very sad!

          - Dov

[seedypoet]

On the sites I've found where Monotype is somehow connected with licensing Minion Pro, the Minion Pro EULA emphatically states that the font CANNOT be used commercially without strict restrictions (the aforementioned bundled software licenses or purchasing directly from Fontspring or other Adobe outlet). This point isn't even debatable. It's on the web for all to read. I've seen nothing on Font.com or MyFonts.com to indicate they sell additional licensing and for how much. So how exactly does one go about obtaining a valid commercial license from Monotype for fonts that are not trademarked by Monotype?

In terms of the rather harsh EULAs, yes they do seem to be a bit extreme. However, it has become plain to me while investigating this issue that it is almost impossible to actually run afoul of the user agreements, even without a commercial license, unless one was trying to sell or share the font illegally on the web or you were a dealing with a archaic printing service which didn't have the proper licenses. Both of these I don't recommend.

The commercial license is extremely easy to obtain. Why would you try to obtain it from a source that was not empowered with providing it legally? After all, from what we've seen in pricing, the third party licensing options seem to be more expensive than Adobe in some case. Companies taking advantage of the ignorance of its consumers, no doubt. But all in all, despite the totalitarian rule of Adobe's EULA, there is pretty much no problem for any business or professional individual seeking to license the font commercially.

[seedypoet]

Thomas neglected to mention that not only did I use this forum to verify my information, but I have also had two conversations on the phone with an Adobe support specialist, the second one being a senior support specialist.

[Thomas Phinney]

yes, you have talked to a senior support specialist, while I have had a lovely email chat with the manager actually responsible for Adobe’s font licensing, Christopher Slye, and he is working on a detailed response for the Quora comment thread (and perhaps one here as well, poor guy). I could summarize his comments, but I will let him speak for himself. He did not disagree with anything I wrote in the Quora discussion.

[Thomas Phinney]

Again, you are simply misunderstanding (and selectively quoting) the Monotype EULA. The same license also says:

“Commercial Printers.  You may embed the Font Software in an electronic document solely for print and view and provide such electronic document to a commercial printer for printing only.  You may take a copy of the Font Software used for a particular document to a commercial printer provided that the printer represents to you that it has purchased or been granted a license to use that particular Font Software.”

Also, it defines “Commercial Product: means an electronic document or data file created by Use of the Font Software which is offered for distribution to the general public (or to some subset of the general public) as a commercial product or other result of your business activity. By way of illustration and not by way of limitation, an electronic book or magazine distributed for a fee shall be considered a Commercial Product; a document distributed in connection with a commercial transaction in which the consideration is unrelated to such document (for example, a business letter, a ticket for an event, or a receipt for purchase of tangible goods such as clothing) shall not be considered a Commercial Product.”

In other words, what I have been saying elsewhere. The Monotype EULA allows many commercial uses of fonts, just not all.

There is no question that the Adobe license is more liberal, and better for end users. But vast numbers of users license fonts under the Monotype EULA and produce printed commercial books with the fonts, legitimately.

[seedypoet]

I didn't overlook that clause which basically says and supports what I have already said a number of times about giving the font to a licensed printer. LICENSED PRINTER.

"(for example, a business letter, a ticket for an event, or a receipt for purchase of tangible goods such as clothing) shall not be considered a Commercial Product."

If these are not considered commercial products, then no it does not allow for many commercial uses of the font. Commercial does not mean "business related". It means production related. Neither Monotype nor Adobe would consider a business letter or even a flyer a commercial product. The only truly commercial product it mentions is the book. Which is restricted. As would be things like t-shirts, mugs, and posters sold for profit, depending on how much of the font they used.

"But vast numbers of users license fonts under the Monotype EULA and produce printed commercial books with the fonts, legitimately."

Actually, if they didn't obtain a commercial license from Monotype, then no, it is not legitimate, UNLESS their printer had a license for the font. This is how they are able to produce these products legitimately. Not because they have commercial licenses, but their printer does. Otherwise, it's in violation of Adobe's EULA and probably against the law.

If you have a link for where someone could obtain a commercial Adobe font license for a book from a third party source, please post it here. This would not include the standard license on Fonts.com or MyFonts.com.

I look forward to hearing from Christopher Slye. I'm sure his explanation will be very informative.

[Thomas Phinney]

If the font is embedded in a PDF, it does not have to be a licensed printer.

As Dov notes, giving the printer a PDF is the more standard workflow these days.

[seedypoet]

I've already told you that a number of times. Adobe Acrobat is the standard, and Adobe Acrobat comes with a commercial font license if you purchase the program. The license is basically automatic. Not non-existent. It's not clear whether third party, consumer PDF creators also provide a commercial license as well, however.

[Guest]

Dov's answer here is correct. Adobe's standard font EULA (available with its software products, Adobe Font Folio, and with Adobe fonts on Fontspring) and Typekit's terms of use do not distinguish between personal and commercial use. Either is fine. This includes use of fonts in documents and other work that is distributed commercially (e.g. a printed book) as well as distribution of electronic documents like PDFs.

You can license Minion Pro individually with Adobe's font EULA from Fontspring here: Minion® Pro Fonts ❯ Fontspring

One minor correction, as Thomas has already mentioned, is that the latest Adobe EULA available from Fontspring now allows one to send Adobe font files to a service bureau for document output, with some restrictions. You can read that in Section 2.6.2 here: Fontspring Font License

[seedypoet]

Thank you very much for replying, Christopher. I hope you didn't find the request by me annoying.

There is just one important question at the center of the disagreement between Thomas and myself. It is Thomas' view that you can buy the same commercial license that allows you to use the fonts in printed books from third party providers like Fonts.com and MyFonts.com. But I've read the Minion Pro end license user agreements on those sites, and they suggest that you cannot use the fonts in that manner with the personal use licenses they provide.

To put this matter to rest: This question involves a scenario where you were not using a licensed printer or service bureau. Do the licenses from these third party outlets allow you use the fonts in commercial products like books, and if not, can these third parties sell you commercial license that would allow this usage?

MyFonts.com EULA:

http://www.myfonts.com/viewlicense?lid=1992

[Guest]

Unfortunately I can't help you interpret Monotype's font license. Here's why:

When anyone licenses font software, they are one of two parties making a legal agreement under specific written terms. When it comes to those terms, ultimately you need to judge for yourself, have your own legal counsel advise you, or ask the other party.

Anyone can offer an opinion, of course, as Thomas has done. I could, but when it comes to agreements between Monotype and its customers, my employer prefers I not offer legal advice about that. Adobe does not advise Monotype on its license terms for Adobe fonts (beyond ensuring they conform to our own licensing agreement with them), so there is no special insight I could offer.

Thomas Phinney is one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people out there on this subject, but if you prefer a more definitive answer to what Monotype's font EULA allows, your best source would be Monotype.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

[seedypoet]

Thanks. I did contact MyFonts.com and got the following reply:

<<Hello,

Using a font for print (such as a book) and 'embedding' are 2 different things.

Minion Pro is offered here:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/ado...

Here's a link to the desktop license:
http://www.myfonts.com/viewlicen...

The desktop license would allow use of a font for a printed commercial item such as a book so long as you are using a standard format like pdf or eps However you are likely to run into some issues if you use a format other than those which requires you to embed or share the font with an unlicensed end-user It depends on what process they use to produce the book.

Minion Pro is only offered with desktop license options.

Let us know if you have any other questions.  Thanks for using MyFonts!

--Chris Dargue, MyFonts Help Desk>>>>