Managing Multiple Sets of Endnotes In a Document

[SarahAndNeedham]

Hello Forum,

I recently upgraded to the new Indesign CC 2018 with the new endnotes feature, which I thought would be helpful. But instead, it is making me want to pull my hair out. I have two issues:

Issue #1:

Here's my first dilemma: I am building a book with several hundred pages. This book will be printed (won't be an eBook/iBook). I'm keeping each chapter as its own document that I will then collect together as a larger Book at the end. The last chapter will be just for all the book's endnotes. In previous versions of InDesign, I would import the Word document, delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter x" document, and pop them back into the "Endnotes chapter" without affecting the superscripts referencing the endnotes throughout the text. Easy. Now, in cc 2018 if I delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter X" document, the reference superscripts throughout the text get deleted as well. I don't want this. Is there any way to disconnect the superscripts in the text from the endnotes? If I must, I can leave the endnotes in a text frame off the page if InDesign MUST have a reference. Which leads me to my next problem:

Issue #2:

Each chapter I'm working on has multiple sets of endnotes, i.e. multiple side bars with their own set of endnotes that need to be kept exclusive from the general chapter endnotes. In the previous version, before Indesign could recognize endnotes, it would allow me to have multiple sets of endnotes that don't interact. Now, it's one big run-on list of end notes. Example: I have 10 paragraphs of chapter text, with endnotes #1-5 in it. Then, I have a sidebar that gets inserted after that. At the end of the first sentence in the sidebar, there is an #1 endnote that refers to the sidebar endnotes. However, Indesign converts it to #6, because it's the endnote that falls after #5 in the general chapter.

Is there a way to fix this so I can restart the numbers for each sidebar? Can this be done with style sheets?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[SMKosofsky]

You re quite correct, Barb—I was not aware that this was a user-to-user forum, so please accept my apologies for blaming you for the deficits. Nonetheless, I agree with Isambard Thomas's description of the problems, and of the absolute necessity for correcting them promptly. It's my guess that no one at Adobe involved with the development of this feature understood what it needed to do.

[Barb Binder]

No worries—it's confusing for someone new to the forums, SMKosofsky.

Did you get a chance to post your ideas for improvement on Adobe InDesign Feedback​? Coming back here and posting a link would also be a good idea, so that others who find this thread and see the same shortcomings can link over to it and vote it up.

~Barb

[edwardp70705052]

Very well said - I couldn't have put it better.

I've just found this thread after searching for a way to 'restart' the endnotes, and I see that despite Steve's excuses, this feature still hasn't been added after nearly three years! I wonder how the Adobe apologists on this thread would like to explain that?

If they spent less time passive-aggressively arguing against and generally dismissing users legitimate complaints, and more time encouraging Adobe to listen, it might be far more helpful.

Ed.

[Laubender]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

I understand those markers will not be printed. I was illustrating the 'coding' for the dynamic note system.

if one cuts that text and place it in another file you get  <?> instead of the number. and the note reference in the text disappears. …

Hm yes.

Instead you would copy/paste or cut/paste the endnotes in the text to transfer the endnotes with their endnote texts to a different document. Between the two markers of an endnote text you can edit text as you wish.

What I am missing is that endnotes will not make it to exported IDMS snippets or as exported assets of InDesign Library files or CC Libraries text assets of any kind.

Regards,
Uwe

[Laubender]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

this is set using the new ID 2018

Notes do not always have raised numerals. also, apostrophes disappear.

What is the version of Word file you are placing?
What kind of file? doc, docx or rtf ?

Regards,
Uwe

[isambard thomas]

Hi Uwe

I have tried saving the word file into every conceivable format, and it wont work, as docx, doc, rtf.

The problem is that I regularly typeset books which are single documents of 300-700pages, with many chapters. I need my textt ot flow continuously throughout the book, and I need the endnotes to start from 1 for each chapter - the original word file will always have these notes renumbering at one for each 'section'.

I do understand that some users will want 'dynamic' notes, but not everyone, by any means. It would seem sensible to have a toggle off/on for 'dynamic endnotes', and so that way that using notes which has existed in InDesign since the beginning is till an option.

There is no way to workaround this other than to typeset in the old 2017ID, and then copy and past into the 2018ID. Which, I am sorry to say, is really quite an unsatisfactory solution!!

Isambard

[Laubender]

Hi Isambard,

understood.

Then, why using InDesign CC 2018 at all for your projects?

I'd leave it at CC 2017.1 until endnotes are supported better with a future version of InDesign.

Regards,
Uwe

[isambard thomas]

🙂

well yes, however as I had already started several projects in ID2018, backwards saving causes it’s own problems as I am sure you are aware - manually placed guides on right hand pages disappear - and also there are sometimes complications. Setting text with notes in 2017ID is the only way now, and then to copy the text only.

The main point here is that I feel very strongly that Adobe should have fully tested this new feature, BEFORE releasing it is an update and as a new part of InDesign. This would be normal in any software development I would have thought!!

I do wish also that Adobe might acknowledge the problem, or oversight if you prefer. As it is a fairly major part of typesetting books, they really ought to have resolved it by now.

[Deivids]

I am using InDesign to layout the second edition of a math/art book (with about 350 images and 250 endnotes) that was originally produced by me with ID back 8 years ago.  In the 1st edition I successfully handled separate endnotes for each chapter; and until today assumed that I would able to handle endnotes in the same way for the 2nd edition.  Upon reading this forum I understand that this will not be possible in ID 2018.  Unfortunately I have nearly completed the ID2018 documents for all the 2nd edition chapters and am ready this week-end to put them together into the book.  Is reverting to ID 2017 my only work-around? If so, How do I do it?  How do I down-load ID 2017?  What issues might I encounter?  Note: I am a mathematician not a professional user of InDesign.

Thanks for any help.

David

[Laubender]

deivids  wrote

… Is reverting to ID 2017 my only work-around? If so, How do I do it?  How do I down-load ID 2017?  What issues might I encounter?  Note: I am a mathematician not a professional user of InDesign. …

Hi David,

downloading and installing InDesign CC 2017.1 should be no problem if you subscribed.

Your Creative Cloud Desktop app should offer this.

You would export your InDesign CC 2018 documents to IDML and open the IDML files with CC 2017.1.

Issues with that? Depending on your contents and the used features of CC 2018 there could be issues. You would need to proofread and inspect all pages carefully.

FWIW: What was your version of InDesign you did the first edition of your book with?
I know, it's too late now, but I would have tried to stick with that version for edits.

Regards,
Uwe

[Deivids]

Thanks Uwe

Over the week-end I found what I hope is an easier solution. I copied the frames containing the endnotes and put the copy at the end of the book sorted by chapter. These copies seemed not to be dynamically linked. Then in each chapter I moved the linked endnotes frame and placed it over the material on the last page of the chapter; and then I chose the option to ‘hide’ the frame. I have tried several sample multi-chapter pdf printouts and have no issues so far. Might the the hidden frames cause cause issues not seen yet?

Regards

David

This message sent from my iPhone.

[Laubender]

deivids  wrote

… Might the the hidden frames cause cause issues not seen yet?

Hi David,

don't think so. But you have to remember that there are any invisible frames in the document. 🙂

Another method would be to make the frames non-printable so that you are able to see them when Overprint Preview is turned off. Also note, that any endnote references will be removed without warning if you remove the endnote texts in the hidden frames (or if you remove all endnote text frames of a chapter).

Regards,
Uwe

[Deivids]

hi Uwe

I successfully printed out my book today with all 214 Endnotes arranged at the end of book by chapter and the dynamically-linked version in hidden frames.

By-the-way: I used the new dynamically-linked nature of ID2018 endnotes because I needed to shuffle around bits of text with endnotes in them.

David

[augustusc38032437]

Hello, Deivids, please explain to how you this.  I don't quite follow you.

[Deivids]

Hi Augustus

1.  I produced the several chapters each with thier own set of Endnotes.  The endnotes were placed by ID. in special endnote frames on an extra page(s) at the end of the chapter.

2.  I  copied each set of endnotes an placed them in a separate Endnote Section sorted by chapter at the end of the book.

3.  I then moved the endnotes frames onto the last page of the chapter overwriting whatever was there.

4.  I deleted the extra pages that had contained the endnote frames.

5.  I chose the 'hide' option for each endnote frame.

6.  That was it.

I hope this helps.

Deivids

[alexandrab25892336]

Hi Deivids,

I have tried this, but the the superscript numbers disappear and I only have <?> questionmarks left.

Regards,

Alex

[Laubender]

alexandrab25892336  wrote

… I have tried this, but the the superscript numbers disappear and I only have <?> questionmarks left.…

Did you copy and paste the endnote texts somewhere in the process?

You have to be very careful.

Best you only move endnote text frames from spread to spread.

Or you remove all endnote text frames but one, load the text to your place gun by using the red [+] sign showing overset and then remove the last endnote text frame so all endnote text is in the cursor. Now you can go to a different spread and drag open a new endnote text frame without problems.

Best,
Uwe

[alexandrab25892336]

Hi,

I have tried both ways, it doesn´t work. I have to place the endnotes in a new document which is at the end of the book not in the same chapter. This is driving me crazy!!

Best,

Alex

[Laubender]

Hi Alex,

yes, a new doc is not working.

The links only work in the same document where the reference numbers live.

Best,
Uwe

[alexandrab25892336]

Hi,

how is this supposed to work when you work in a 700 pages book document?? Are you really saying me to keep 700 pages in one document? I can´t believe it ...

Best,

Alex

[Laubender]

That's how endnotes work today. I did not make the feature. Just can tell what's working and what is not working. And sometimes I can give a workaround. If you like to do live endnotes with CC 2018 today you can forget about the Book feature, if there should be one endnote text story for the whole book that is working with live endnotes.

Regards,
Uwe

[manuelg1892787]

Hello Laubender​, have you solved that?

we need to do that in the same way, is there a way around?

Hope yes.

[Laubender]

Regarding book files and endnotes?
There is no news.

Regards,
Uwe

[manuelg1892787]

Laubender​ yes regarding book files and endnotes,

do you have any solutions how do you would solve that:

We are doing a book aprox. 400 pages of text with ca. 200 endnotes.

But we want to have them all at the end of the book.

Do you have any solutions for us, that you could suggest us.

Thanks

regards

Manuel

[Steve Werner]

>Sorry Steve, but the software developer in question has plenty of financial resources to sort this out BEFORE release to the subscribers, who pay for the programme.

I'll mention one other thing which you may not be aware of.

I've been an InDesign user and trainer since it's very first verson in 1999.

What I've observed is that InDesign is now considered what a software developer would call a "mature" product. A mature product will add only a few major new features (and this was one, it has been requested since the program began) and some lesser features in a release.

But, remember, that Adobe isn't selling InDesign any more: It's selling the Adobe Creative Cloud, and it's been doing very well at that, much better than it did when it was selling boxed software. To keep selling the Creative Cloud, it devotes some of its marketing and engineering resources to its existing mature applications—Dreamweaver and InDesign for example. It gives a great deal more resources to hot, new products which it perceives will bring more users into the Adobe system (other developers like Microsoft, Google, and so one do the same). So if you viewed the keynote for Adobe MAX, the big annual event for creative pros which drew 12,000 users to Las Vegas a couple weeks ago, InDesign was not mentioned once at the keynote.

We may not like that because as InDesign users we know how valuable the program is to us, and how great it is. But the truth is that the InDesign engineering team does not have unlimited resources despite the fact that Adobe is a very wealthy company right now. That's just the reality of the situation, whether we like it or not. So, no, there were not the resources to create the perfect endnote feature which met every need in version 1.0.