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Managing Multiple Sets of Endnotes In a Document

Community Beginner ,
Oct 30, 2017

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Hello Forum,

I recently upgraded to the new Indesign CC 2018 with the new endnotes feature, which I thought would be helpful. But instead, it is making me want to pull my hair out. I have two issues:

Issue #1:

Here's my first dilemma: I am building a book with several hundred pages. This book will be printed (won't be an eBook/iBook). I'm keeping each chapter as its own document that I will then collect together as a larger Book at the end. The last chapter will be just for all the book's endnotes. In previous versions of InDesign, I would import the Word document, delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter x" document, and pop them back into the "Endnotes chapter" without affecting the superscripts referencing the endnotes throughout the text. Easy. Now, in cc 2018 if I delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter X" document, the reference superscripts throughout the text get deleted as well. I don't want this. Is there any way to disconnect the superscripts in the text from the endnotes? If I must, I can leave the endnotes in a text frame off the page if InDesign MUST have a reference. Which leads me to my next problem:

Issue #2:

Each chapter I'm working on has multiple sets of endnotes, i.e. multiple side bars with their own set of endnotes that need to be kept exclusive from the general chapter endnotes. In the previous version, before Indesign could recognize endnotes, it would allow me to have multiple sets of endnotes that don't interact. Now, it's one big run-on list of end notes. Example: I have 10 paragraphs of chapter text, with endnotes #1-5 in it. Then, I have a sidebar that gets inserted after that. At the end of the first sentence in the sidebar, there is an #1 endnote that refers to the sidebar endnotes. However, Indesign converts it to #6, because it's the endnote that falls after #5 in the general chapter.

Is there a way to fix this so I can restart the numbers for each sidebar? Can this be done with style sheets?


Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi,

Having personally worked on this feature, here are my comments on the two issues:

1. Currently we do not support endnotes in a book. What you want is that automatically all chapter endotes are moved to a new document at the end. With current implementation, we can not achieve this.(This would require a Book scope)Previously you could import endnotes as plain static text. It did not have any linking to endnote numbers in the main text, and hence you could delete any endnote text without deleting its reference in the text. You also could not navigate to endote text and back. With CC 2018, we import endotes from word document as dynamic text. Linking is maintained which allows you to navigate. Just like footnotes, if you delete the endnote text you loose its superscript number in the text.

2. For issue2, you can see if changing scope to story in type->document endnote options, helps you out.

-Aman

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Managing Multiple Sets of Endnotes In a Document

Community Beginner ,
Oct 30, 2017

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Hello Forum,

I recently upgraded to the new Indesign CC 2018 with the new endnotes feature, which I thought would be helpful. But instead, it is making me want to pull my hair out. I have two issues:

Issue #1:

Here's my first dilemma: I am building a book with several hundred pages. This book will be printed (won't be an eBook/iBook). I'm keeping each chapter as its own document that I will then collect together as a larger Book at the end. The last chapter will be just for all the book's endnotes. In previous versions of InDesign, I would import the Word document, delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter x" document, and pop them back into the "Endnotes chapter" without affecting the superscripts referencing the endnotes throughout the text. Easy. Now, in cc 2018 if I delete the endnotes out of the "Chapter X" document, the reference superscripts throughout the text get deleted as well. I don't want this. Is there any way to disconnect the superscripts in the text from the endnotes? If I must, I can leave the endnotes in a text frame off the page if InDesign MUST have a reference. Which leads me to my next problem:

Issue #2:

Each chapter I'm working on has multiple sets of endnotes, i.e. multiple side bars with their own set of endnotes that need to be kept exclusive from the general chapter endnotes. In the previous version, before Indesign could recognize endnotes, it would allow me to have multiple sets of endnotes that don't interact. Now, it's one big run-on list of end notes. Example: I have 10 paragraphs of chapter text, with endnotes #1-5 in it. Then, I have a sidebar that gets inserted after that. At the end of the first sentence in the sidebar, there is an #1 endnote that refers to the sidebar endnotes. However, Indesign converts it to #6, because it's the endnote that falls after #5 in the general chapter.

Is there a way to fix this so I can restart the numbers for each sidebar? Can this be done with style sheets?


Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi,

Having personally worked on this feature, here are my comments on the two issues:

1. Currently we do not support endnotes in a book. What you want is that automatically all chapter endotes are moved to a new document at the end. With current implementation, we can not achieve this.(This would require a Book scope)Previously you could import endnotes as plain static text. It did not have any linking to endnote numbers in the main text, and hence you could delete any endnote text without deleting its reference in the text. You also could not navigate to endote text and back. With CC 2018, we import endotes from word document as dynamic text. Linking is maintained which allows you to navigate. Just like footnotes, if you delete the endnote text you loose its superscript number in the text.

2. For issue2, you can see if changing scope to story in type->document endnote options, helps you out.

-Aman

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Oct 30, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Oct 30, 2017

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As you know, 2018 is the first version to support endnotes, and certainly has room for improvement. Add your wishes for future versions here:

Adobe InDesign Feedback

But for now what if you turn off importing the existing Endnotes? Can you return to the old way of working?

Screenshot 2017-10-30 19.40.32.png

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Oct 30, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
Oct 31, 2017

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Barb,

Thanks for your help. I tried this, but it simply didn't import the superscript numbers in the text OR the endnotes. I definitely need those superscript numbers in there. I also tried importing it as end notes, but unchecking footnotes. Same issue.

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Oct 31, 2017 0
Adobe Employee ,
Oct 31, 2017

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Hi,

Having personally worked on this feature, here are my comments on the two issues:

1. Currently we do not support endnotes in a book. What you want is that automatically all chapter endotes are moved to a new document at the end. With current implementation, we can not achieve this.(This would require a Book scope)Previously you could import endnotes as plain static text. It did not have any linking to endnote numbers in the main text, and hence you could delete any endnote text without deleting its reference in the text. You also could not navigate to endote text and back. With CC 2018, we import endotes from word document as dynamic text. Linking is maintained which allows you to navigate. Just like footnotes, if you delete the endnote text you loose its superscript number in the text.

2. For issue2, you can see if changing scope to story in type->document endnote options, helps you out.

-Aman

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Oct 31, 2017 1
Community Beginner ,
Nov 01, 2017

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Thank you Aman. I understand I will need to revert back to an earlier version of InDesign in order to be able to manage my endnotes through a Book. Hopefully this can be resolved in future release.

Thank you for your time,

Sarah

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Nov 01, 2017 1
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 01, 2017

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Hi,

Do add a feature request though in the link Barb mentioned

-Aman

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Nov 01, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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It seems odd that Adobe have released this feature without full testing. It does not work for multiple chapters that need notes in a separate document, and that need to restart at 1 each time. For a 700 page book with 35 chapters, which I regularly set, this is a disaster! It seems that the idea here is to make InDesign more like Microsoft Word, a word processing programme. Please urgently add an on/off option for 'Dynamic' notes. It wasn't broken, why did you fix it?

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Nov 06, 2017 1
Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Thank you, Aman, I did that.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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An on/off feature for dynamic endnotes would be great.

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Nov 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 06, 2017

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File a feature request here to make that more likely in the future:

Feature Requests/Bug Reports

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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I have done, but that is not really the problem. This should not have ever been introduced without full testing. Adobe is becoming very sloppy with this sort of thing. When altering a feature, surely commonsense would suggest that is is a good idea to make sure that all previous features (essential or not) carried on functioning. AS a professional designer who relies on software to make a living, it is essential Adobe get this stuff fixed.  We subscribers pay money for  this, and not nothing at that. Am sorry but I think it not good enough, and the next update won't be for months.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Endnotes is a version 1 feature. I don't know any software developer who manages to release a totally filled out version 1. They did the best they could, now it's up to us to suggest what would make it better

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Sorry Steve, but the software developer in question has plenty of financial resources to sort this out BEFORE release to the subscribers, who pay for the programme. A new feature, not fully tested, and not fully functioning is unprofessional. No need to say they did the best they could - they did not. It is really not acceptable. Likewise 'suggestions' often do not get responded to, and IF they make it into the next version that could easily be 12 months away. Support and response from Adobe Technical in this respect is also not good enough. I spent an hour on the phone to an 'expert' on InDesign who simply did not understand the issue, even though she shared my screen and could see the problems. Bsaically she said there was not work around, the only thing to do is use CC2017.

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Nov 06, 2017 1
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Hi,

We totally understand your concern and the problem.

Are all your chapters different InDesign document that are part of the same book?

Like you must have seen, we hve only provided endnotes for Indesign(and not InCopy) with document and story scope for now. Because of certain limitations we could not extend it to further scopes. You surely can add this as a feature and it may be incorporated in future.

How would turning this feature off would have helped you anyway? Endnotes were previously only imported as static text with no linking to its reference in the main text.

Like Steve said above, you can request more features and we will try our best to incorporate them within InDesign to make Indesign a better tool for the users. Not only features but also enhancements, bugs, painpoints are welcomed

Currently, only document and story scope are functional and tested to work fine.

-Aman

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Thank you for your note Aman. No I tend to make one continuous file, so I can control the typography better. But I split it when we get close to the end of the project. when editors need ot work on different sections from the designer (me). This means I often have, for example, pp1-99 (prelims and essays), pp100-680 (catalogue section of maybe 10 chapters), then the endmatter pp 681-720. This is the current plan I am working on, and have done so for 25+ years, over many platforms!!! I know what I am doing, trust me! Turning off the feature would mean that I can import/place multiple text files which may or may not have notes, together in one continuous 'galley'.  I cut the notes form the end of each chapter (where they have been put by default in all In Design docs since the very start!!!!!), and paste them into either another file, or the end of the document. Usually the former. The notes all restart at 1 for each chapter. And the note reference stays in the text, regardless of whether I have cut the notes or not. The reference in the text was always there - it simply did not change when you changed the notes. Dynamic notes are really not needed. It is fine for an editor using notes in Word etc, for word processing, but for typesetting and typography for the kind of work i do in the illustrated books, the text is edited and pretty much finished when it gets to me - so renumbering is not an issue. I have been using InDesign for years now, and Quark before that, since 1989. ALways, footnotes withing text files came in at the end of each 'import' as part of the text. The dynamic feature could be useful, especially for online, ebooks etc, so I see the point of it. Hence the option for on / off. The current toggle within the notes in CC2018, as mentioned above, if you deselect footnotes and endnotes, or one or the other, all notes and the references are deleted.

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Nov 06, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 06, 2017

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>Sorry Steve, but the software developer in question has plenty of financial resources to sort this out BEFORE release to the subscribers, who pay for the programme.

I'll mention one other thing which you may not be aware of.

I've been an InDesign user and trainer since it's very first verson in 1999.

What I've observed is that InDesign is now considered what a software developer would call a "mature" product. A mature product will add only a few major new features (and this was one, it has been requested since the program began) and some lesser features in a release.

But, remember, that Adobe isn't selling InDesign any more: It's selling the Adobe Creative Cloud, and it's been doing very well at that, much better than it did when it was selling boxed software. To keep selling the Creative Cloud, it devotes some of its marketing and engineering resources to its existing mature applications—Dreamweaver and InDesign for example. It gives a great deal more resources to hot, new products which it perceives will bring more users into the Adobe system (other developers like Microsoft, Google, and so one do the same). So if you viewed the keynote for Adobe MAX, the big annual event for creative pros which drew 12,000 users to Las Vegas a couple weeks ago, InDesign was not mentioned once at the keynote.

We may not like that because as InDesign users we know how valuable the program is to us, and how great it is. But the truth is that the InDesign engineering team does not have unlimited resources despite the fact that Adobe is a very wealthy company right now. That's just the reality of the situation, whether we like it or not. So, no, there were not the resources to create the perfect endnote feature which met every need in version 1.0.

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Nov 06, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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🙂 I understand this, and realise the scale of the company is huge, adn they have many products etc, and that ID is not the main thing now that QX has been blown away. And i agree with the fact that maybe there were not enough resources to create the perfect endnote feature. But I do not buy into the fact that the old and trusted way that had been working for 18 years is simply turned off, without a thought to how users interacted with the software. By all means bring in a new feature, but to replace a crucial part of text coding and typographic handling without going through it is still sloppy. It was not perfect before but it worked. Now it does not work at all. Even for a short file with 10 pages, the notes have to be connected to the text by code. Why not simply have a remove all code option. It is making a simple job a nightmare. Be wary Adobe. Remember how QX dominated the market in the late 80s and 90s, and blew away Ready Set Go, Pagemaker etc. Then they got complacent. Charged too much, and brought in features that made the software harder to use, and eventually their market share disappears altogether. Books are still being printed, illustrated books more than ever. Printing has changed beyond recognition since 1453 and yet Lithographic printing is still miles ahead of digital inkjet printing in terms of quality for illustrated and text books. Publishers around the world, and designers need a product they can rely on. Developing 'mature' products with the same care and diligence one puts into any other saleable piece of software would be what most people expect of a mulitbillion dollar company, and it seems a better option.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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And please remember that as an individual, on a monthly pay plan for CC, when this sort of thing goes wrong it annoys the hell out of me. Why? because I pay for it. And i do not get a refund. And I cannot opt out until i retire!! And by complaining I waste my time, but I know that maybe somehow it will get fixed. And then the price will go up. I anyone who makes a suggestion or reports a fault that could have been tested, gets no thanks.

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Adobe Employee ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Hi,

Thanks for pointing out that use case. Without going into the marketing aspect of InDesign please find my response below:

InDesign also has other different output formats like PDF interactive(say) that would require Dynamic Endnotes with linking.(Which is what you mean by code?)

Since you are breaking a bigger file into a smaller one, your endnotes are bound to get renumbered. That is something desired, and maybe not desired by few. That is how numbered list across stories also work. Please let me know if i am wrong.

Your suggestion that we should have included an option to “remove linking” is something that i feel is coming across from some users. Like Steve pointed out, this is only version 1.0 of endnotes. Its not the end and we will continue to improvise it based on suggestions given by our users.

Please feel free to add this as a feature request and we will have a look.

I am sure you will agree with me on this and will make the incremental improvement of this feature successfull.

-Aman

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 06, 2017

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Hi Aman

I will explain how I work and why this new feature is a problem.

For a typical exhibition catalogue I will be sent maybe 10 essays and 5 other pieces of text, all of which have notes.

These note’s have been carefully edited BEFORE they reach me. These are academic and art books. The level of research of the material is thus extremely high. The writers can renumber their notes in word all they like, but once the text comes to me, they do not. This is typesetting that i am doing, not word processing.

I flow low the text into one long file, strip out all style sheets etc, put the notes into one long document on their own. This will sit with all the rest of the back matter, bibliography, index, etc. The font size for this section is smaller and sits on different line leading.

Sometimes these notes and the back matter can sit in the same document, but not always. It depends on the editing process. After I have designed the book, and before it goes to print, various editors will make chnages. These will not normally ever include renumbering notes.

Dynamic notes simply mean the connection to the word document stays put. that is fine if it has flexibility enough to be turned off. But the basic premise seems to be this tool is for editors not designer. Which is after all the target InDesign wants. Word is for editors.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 07, 2017

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Further to this Aman, I must point out that the new feature does not work properly either. Many note references in the main text are not raised. Also random numerals appear.

I do do not buy for one second that Adobe does not have the resources to test a new function completely BEFORE release. If there is the money for development and research into this new feature, which there clearly is, then to not fully test it is amateurish and bordering on disgraceful. To try to make an excuse for this being a 'mature' programme is just bonkers. Adobe released this updated application in september 2017, - why not test fully and release in 2018 - like the name ID2018!!!

An analogy for you. You have a car, that works fine but some drivers want to have heated seats. You develop and test in a factory and it works fine. But whilst you have tested it with the engine running, you have not tested it when driving the car. So customers drive and the seats do not heat properly.  If ID 2018was a car, it would need to be recalled.

Publishers and designers around the world, producing all kinds of printed material and books, be they art, academic, legal, mathematical etc, will all encounter this basic flaw (ie consecutive sequential numbering with no chance to renumber per chapter)  very soon, and you will be inundated with complaints.

When I say coding, i attach the image below. THe blue symbol at the end of each line and the beginning of each paragraph is the note coding, translated from the word file. It is completely uneditable.Screen Shot 2017-11-07 at 08.51.41.jpg

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Nov 07, 2017 0
Adobe Employee ,
Nov 07, 2017

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Hi,

I do understand the need to have endnotes at the end of a book in a different document.

However i still do not understand what you mean by

https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

Dynamic notes simply mean the connection to the word document stays put. that is fine if it has flexibility enough to be turned off. But the basic premise seems to be this tool is for editors not designer. Which is after all the target InDesign wants. Word is for editors.

You can place a linked file (a word) or not link it. It is upto you. only if you place it as a linked file then only once the endnote in word are updated, will they update in word.

https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

Further to this Aman, I must point out that the new feature does not work properly either. Many note references in the main text are not raised. Also random numerals appear.

Can you post a screenshot showing this bug?

https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

When I say coding, i attach the image below. THe blue symbol at the end of each line and the beginning of each paragraph is the note coding, translated from the word file. It is completely uneditable.

The blue marker only highlights the endnote text range. It will not be printed. Only the text within the blue codings are part of endnote.

You can format the endnote text just like normal text...

-Aman

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 07, 2017

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this is set using the new ID 2018

Notes do not always have raised numerals. also, apostrophes disappear..

Screen Shot 2017-11-07 at 10.58.40.png

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 07, 2017

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this is the same word file set in ID2017 - note references are all superior figures. apostrophes are in the correct spot

Screen Shot 2017-11-07 at 11.00.46.png

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 07, 2017

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I understand those markers will not be printed. I was illustrating the 'coding' for the dynamic note system.

if one cuts that text and place it in another file you get  <?> instead of the number. and the note reference in the text disappears.

the more i try to look at this, the more problems i find with it.

the irony is that one of the best features of ID has been the importing of word files into documents. Not you have basically tried to emulate the word programme function within a design tool. this only will create issues if it cannot be fully disabled, and text is treated as text.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 20, 2017

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I wish I had read these posts before starting a book in InDesign 2018. I am suffering with the same issues as @isambard_thomas. Truly, it is reprehensible for Adobe to release amateur work before it achieves a professional standard.

You guys suck and I am appalled.

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Dec 20, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 20, 2017

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Your expectations are unrealistic. Adding the Endnotes feature was a major effort for the software engineers. Almost never is it possible to fully complete a professional-level feature like that in a single effort. They had about 6 months to get it ready for release before the deadline. It usually requires a couple of updates to add the missing features.

Often, you have to have a real version 1 out to get complete feedback on what needs to be included.

I'm sorry you were unaware this, but his is not Adobe-specific, but happens in many large software projects from many companies.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 21, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

I understand those markers will not be printed. I was illustrating the 'coding' for the dynamic note system.

if one cuts that text and place it in another file you get  <?> instead of the number. and the note reference in the text disappears. …

Hm yes.

Instead you would copy/paste or cut/paste the endnotes in the text to transfer the endnotes with their endnote texts to a different document. Between the two markers of an endnote text you can edit text as you wish.

What I am missing is that endnotes will not make it to exported IDMS snippets or as exported assets of InDesign Library files or CC Libraries text assets of any kind.

Regards,
Uwe

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Dec 21, 2017 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 21, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/isambard+thomas  wrote

this is set using the new ID 2018

Notes do not always have raised numerals. also, apostrophes disappear.

What is the version of Word file you are placing?
What kind of file? doc, docx or rtf ?

Regards,
Uwe

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Dec 21, 2017 0
Community Beginner ,
Dec 21, 2017

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@SteveWerner: I’m not buying your feeble excuses. Are you saying that, because other companies suck, Adobe is free to do so, too? Perhaps you don’t remember what happened to the once mighty Quark, Inc. InDesign is a tool used by design professionals and the engineers involved should understand that. As such, the rules of thumb should always be these: First, do no harm; Second, be sure you understand how a feature will be used.

Looking through the mess you’ve created for a project of mine that’s on a deadline, I realized that your engineers have a fundamental misunderstanding of how endnotes and footnotes are treated in a multi-chapter book. There must be a way to start the numbering anew in each chapter, but the only options you give are “document” and “story.” What is really needed are options for “document,” “story," and “SECTION.” A “section” is that which is determined in the Page Menu, and sections can be created there even when the page numbering continues throughout document. Alternatively, you could offer a way to break a continuous document into discrete stories, with the invisible # inserted at the end of each. But, so far as I know, there is no way for a user to place the invisible # sign.

This situation is rather like the feeble implementation of OpenType options, which has improved over many versions, but is still inadequate, with too many “all or nothing” options for certain features. Why don’t you confer with expert users with a wide range of needs and uses? They do in other departments; I know because I have been a paid consultant for the type department.

Adobe always had high standards, but lately things have slipped. It’s now reminiscent of the old days at Microsoft, “home of the 80% solution,” as Adobe engineers used to day.

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Dec 21, 2017 1
New Here ,
May 30, 2018

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Hi,

has this issue been solved in the new version?

Regards,

Alex

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May 30, 2018 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 30, 2018

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Hi Alex,

nothing changed in the last two months regarding this.

What is your problem? Perhaps there is a new workaround?

Regards,
Uwe

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May 30, 2018 0
New Here ,
May 30, 2018

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Screen Shot 2018-05-28 at 3.45.01 PM.pngScreen Shot 2018-05-28 at 3.45.27 PM.png

Hi Uwe,

I am missing the numbering if I want to place the endnotes at the end of the book. Is there a way around?

Regards,

Alex

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May 30, 2018 0
Community Beginner ,
Mar 10, 2018

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I often work on publications for a client that prefers their endnotes to appear at the end of each essay/chapter rather than at the end of the entire publication. I typically import each essay from MS Word and flow and style the text into my master document. InDesign currently seems to only support one set of dynamic endnotes for the entire document, with one dynamic text frame for all of them. Even though I am knitting together several chapters from several authors, every time I flow in a new chapter, it attaches those new endnotes to the end of the line and renumbers the new endnotes, so what was once endnote #1 in chapter five becomes endnote #118 in the series.

A workaround for this is to go into Type > Document Endnote Options and under Numbering > Mode select "Restart every story." This will reset that particular chapter's endnotes, provided you keep the text for that chapter unlinked to the previous chapter's text frame.

Then, just insert a frame break after the last endnote of the previous chapter and flow the endnotes into a new frame on the appropriate page at the end of the chapter you just finished adding.

It is not how I would prefer to do things, but it does seem to be working well enough.Screen Shot 2018-03-10 at 4.47.19 PM.png

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Mar 10, 2018 0