Highlighted

"Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command counterintuitive?

Community Beginner ,
Jul 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

BACKGROUND: I'm a technical communicator w/6-7 yrs experience, who currently writes install instructions for performance car accessories. I've worked mostly in Word (4-5 years) followed by PowerPoint (1+ yrs). But with the arrival of a 2nd writer about a year ago, we've adopted Adobe CC, and write our instructions in InDesign. Now I'm trying to deepen my knowledge of the platform by taking a course on Udemy.

I'm starting the section on working with pages, and am trying to grasp the "Allow to Shuffle" options. (I have not used them at all yet when creating content.)

My problem is, the "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command seems counterintuitive to me. When it is turned ON (checked), it constrains the layout to two-page spreads. When it is turned OFF (unchecked), it "allows" you to lay out pages in spreads of any length. "Allow" = CONSTRAINED; "Disallow" = FLEXIBLE.

I am aware that, while the "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command applies globally to the entire document, "Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle" only applies to the selected spread(s) -- and that the page numbers of the "selected spread(s)" are bracketed when the feature is "disallowed"/unchecked.

So I'm simply trying to understand THE THINKING BEHIND the "Allow Pages to Shuffle" command, so that if I ever need to resort to it someday, it'll make sense.

Someone make it click for me ... thanks much!

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Barb Binder | Adobe Community Professional

Hi Frank:

Let us know if you have further questions after reading the helpx file that Steve posted.

As a tech writer, this is not a feature you are likely to need in real life, unless perhaps you have a very wide illustration where it might make sense to have a page unfold into a larger size. I work regularly with tech writers using FrameMaker, and this has never come up, in my experience.

The more important take-away may be that if someone gives you a file to work on where the commands were disabled and the pages dragged around, you know know that rechecking them will restore the normal page behavior. We certainly get that question a lot on the forums.

~Barb

Views

2.5K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more

"Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command counterintuitive?

Community Beginner ,
Jul 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

BACKGROUND: I'm a technical communicator w/6-7 yrs experience, who currently writes install instructions for performance car accessories. I've worked mostly in Word (4-5 years) followed by PowerPoint (1+ yrs). But with the arrival of a 2nd writer about a year ago, we've adopted Adobe CC, and write our instructions in InDesign. Now I'm trying to deepen my knowledge of the platform by taking a course on Udemy.

I'm starting the section on working with pages, and am trying to grasp the "Allow to Shuffle" options. (I have not used them at all yet when creating content.)

My problem is, the "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command seems counterintuitive to me. When it is turned ON (checked), it constrains the layout to two-page spreads. When it is turned OFF (unchecked), it "allows" you to lay out pages in spreads of any length. "Allow" = CONSTRAINED; "Disallow" = FLEXIBLE.

I am aware that, while the "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" command applies globally to the entire document, "Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle" only applies to the selected spread(s) -- and that the page numbers of the "selected spread(s)" are bracketed when the feature is "disallowed"/unchecked.

So I'm simply trying to understand THE THINKING BEHIND the "Allow Pages to Shuffle" command, so that if I ever need to resort to it someday, it'll make sense.

Someone make it click for me ... thanks much!

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by Barb Binder | Adobe Community Professional

Hi Frank:

Let us know if you have further questions after reading the helpx file that Steve posted.

As a tech writer, this is not a feature you are likely to need in real life, unless perhaps you have a very wide illustration where it might make sense to have a page unfold into a larger size. I work regularly with tech writers using FrameMaker, and this has never come up, in my experience.

The more important take-away may be that if someone gives you a file to work on where the commands were disabled and the pages dragged around, you know know that rechecking them will restore the normal page behavior. We certainly get that question a lot on the forums.

~Barb

Views

2.5K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Jul 25, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Frank:

When both are checked, you can drag a spread or page anywhere else in the document and the other pages shuffle to accommodate the new layout. With a double-sided document with facing pages on, that means that if you move a page or spread, the other pages shuffle to maintain the double-sided document.

Before (left) and after I drag the last spread in front of page 1:

Screen Shot 2019-07-25 at 2.54.35 PM.pngScreen Shot 2019-07-25 at 2.55.06 PM.png

When you uncheck one or the other, you can create multi-page spreads:

Screen Shot 2019-07-25 at 2.57.19 PM.png

To pop-them back into line (as per the original screen shot), recheck the shuffle commands.

~Barb

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 25, 2019 3
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Barb is correct.

To say it another way, "Shuffle" is a shorthand way of saying, "Keep in paired (double-sided) pages" (which doesn't fit very well in the menu!)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 25, 2019 3
Community Beginner ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Steve. You wrote:

"Shuffle" is a shorthand way of saying, "Keep in paired (double-sided) pages"

At least, that seems to apply to "Allow PAGES to Shuffle."

"Allow SELECTED SPREADS to Shuffle" seems to be a somewhat different animal. Can you help me distinguish between them?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

In the following Help file...

Manage pages and spreads in InDesign

...look at the section "Create a Multiple-Page Spread":

"To keep a single spread together, select a spread in the Pages panel, and then deselect Allow Selected Spread To Shuffle in the Pages panel menu. You can identify an island spread in the Pages panel by the brackets around its page numbers."

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Frank:

Let us know if you have further questions after reading the helpx file that Steve posted.

As a tech writer, this is not a feature you are likely to need in real life, unless perhaps you have a very wide illustration where it might make sense to have a page unfold into a larger size. I work regularly with tech writers using FrameMaker, and this has never come up, in my experience.

The more important take-away may be that if someone gives you a file to work on where the commands were disabled and the pages dragged around, you know know that rechecking them will restore the normal page behavior. We certainly get that question a lot on the forums.

~Barb

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Barb:

As a tech writer, this is not a feature you are likely to need in real life,

Based on the kinds of tech writing I've done so far, I agree. But whether or not I ever need to use the feature, I do want to bring my proficiency with the platform up a few notches, with the goal of attaining professional certification.(And short term, I'm sure it'll be on the test for my Udemy class!) 😉

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
Community Beginner ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks Barb. Your graphics inspired me to make a "sandbox" of my own:

01 as created.PNG

(I tried doing something similar yesterday, with random photos from my Udemy class folder ... didn't work so well!)

I've played with this a bit already, but will need to do so some more (when I get the spare time).

I really want to grasp the difference between the two "Allow to Shuffle" commands. Perhaps you could unpack that a bit for me?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
New Here ,
Feb 12, 2020

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thank you Barb!! You so helped me get unstuck --

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Feb 12, 2020 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Frank,

I understand your confusion about this command. It's an issue I mention all the time in my InDesign classes.

Quite simply, it's my belief that Adobe misnamed the command. If it's "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle," why is it checked by default? If begs the question "How am I 'allowing' anything if it's already checked?"

The command should have been named "Document Pages Will Shuffle."

While the concept of "shuffling" is quite simple, its name helps make it quite confusing.

Just my 2¢!

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 25, 2019 3
Community Beginner ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Jeff. You said:

Quite simply, it's my belief that Adobe misnamed the command. If it's "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle," why is it checked by default? If begs the question "How am I 'allowing' anything if it's already checked?"

I may not have explained so well why I'm finding them confusing.

I don't begrudge Adobe their default settings (starting new docs off with both "Allow to Shuffle" commands checked). It's more that, with either of the commands switched OFF (unchecked), the layout seems to be way more "flexible" / malleable, whereas when both are turned ON (checked), the pages seem to reorder in a more automatic / predetermined fashion.

So that said, maybe your suggested "Document Pages Will Shuffle" understanding has some merit.

Probably the thing that's most confusing to me is the way that, when (either? both?) shuffles are turned OFF, the pages often split from their original 2-page spreads. The way in which that happens seems -- seems --  rather arbitrary. But I'm sure it's just a manifestation of this n00b fiddling with stuff he doesn't fully understand yet! (GIGO, right?!)

I'll keep experimenting with my "sandbox," but if you can explain the distinctions between allowing page and spread shuffling, that would help.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 0
Most Valuable Participant ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

There has been more than one user confused by this setting. All I can tell you is that at this point you’re wasting energy on it.

It has been this way since day one. There is, quite simply, no way to change it now as it would cause a massive amount of confusion for users that, despite a less than stellar name, understand exactly how it works.

Allowing the pages to shuffle keeps things in nice neat two-page spreads when you add a page. That is why the default is on.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
Community Beginner ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Bob.

There is, quite simply, no way to change it now as it would cause a massive amount of confusion for users that, despite a less than stellar name, understand exactly how it works.

Absolutely. I wouldn't think of trying change to anything ... I simply seek to understand exactly how it works.

🙂

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I think Steve explains the difference between the Shuffling commands very well in #6 above.

Basically, Shuffling does exactly what its name implies. If you add a single page anyplace in a document, InDesign will "shuffle" the content of all pages forward by one page. With some designs, this shuffling will not cause any issues. With other designs, where left and right pages are different, this can be a nightmare.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 26, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

In a class I teach for graphic designers we set up a book cover or a brochure by having multiple page spreads. For a cover, they would be [Back Cover][Spine][Front Cover]—three pages set up side-by-side using that very technique.

To do that you also use the Page tool which lets you set the spine to be the exact width it needs to for the book. One of the advantages of that method is that if the thickness of the book changes (more/less pages or wider because of thicker paper), you only have to change the width of the spine.

On a brochure, you can compensate for the fact that when folding the panels of the brochure, the inside panel may need to be slightly narrower (determined by the paper thickness). That can also use this technique.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 26, 2019 1
Community Beginner ,
Jul 29, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi all,

Thanks so much for your patient replies.

The helpx page was the first place I looked, but it wasn't scratching my "Allow to Shuffle" itch at first, so I came here. After reading through your responses a few times (while testing them in my "sandbox"), I got a bit of a better feel for what the commands seem to do.

Barb's right -- I'm not likely to use these commands in my current role, at my current employer. But it is helpful to at least know that they are there, and how moving pages & spreads behaves when either / both commands are selected or de-selected.

I'm satisfied with my present level of knowledge of these features -- even if I miss that Q on the test. 😉

Peace out ...

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 29, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 29, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Frank:

Which test are you taking? I don't recall anything coming up on the ACE exams on that topic, unless it was how to restore the normal spreads after someone changed them. And it's way too complex for the ACA exam.

~Barb

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 29, 2019 0
Community Beginner ,
Jul 29, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

"ACE exams"

As in "Adobe Certified Expert"? Haha! No, nothing like that for me! (At least, I don't THINK so ... )

I simply meant the in-class quiz, and probably a final test at the end, for my Udemy class. And quite possibly the ACA ("Associate") exam.

But you raise Q: How would the "Allow to Shuffle" commands be considered "too complex" for the ACA exam? The Udemy instructor introduces it very early on, under the "Working With Pages" lesson. (And before "Advanced Page Techniques"!)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 29, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 29, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Frank:

Well, we have a bunch of career InDesign trainers working here on the forums (actually everyone besides you on this thread), so I'll let them answer for themselves.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't bring this up in an Intro to InDesign class, because a.) as you pointed out from the get-go it's a confusing concept and b.) it's not used very often and there is so much else that is significantly more important for most users. I'd prefer to spend my valuable class time on features that my students will use in their everyday work.

~Barb

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 29, 2019 1
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 29, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I do teach it in an introductory 10-week class for graphic designers (because it's useful for them) but I don't teach in my 2-day classes for everyone else.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Jul 29, 2019 1
New Here ,
Sep 29, 2020

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I searched this term because it seemed to apply with the problem I am having with InDesign, as a new user. I'm working with a multi-page document. Making a calendar. So of course there's a specific order to it.

 

Why then, does InDesign, when I've just about completed it - go ahead & changed the order of several of my pages, & duplicate others & delete others, all on it's own. I thought maybe it was when I discovered this command was checked!

 

I've been going through a lot with this program/app trying to get it to work right. On some pages, it does right, then the next page, when I'm doing the exact same thing - it won't work right. I've uninstalled & reinstalled. I've gotten with Support. I'm about to give up. Yet I don't want to give up, because this is just the type of system I need to produce a calendar I need.

 

Is there someone out there who can help me???

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Sep 29, 2020 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 29, 2020

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Default:

 

This post has been answered.

 

Please ask this question in a new thread—and include screen shots. We can certainly help, but we will need more information. Your question may related to Smart Text Reflow, but does not relate to the original question on this post.

 

~Barb

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Sep 29, 2020 0