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Reflow non-threaded figure numbers?

New Here ,
May 02, 2019

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Greetings all, and thanks for your time.

I produce a textbook with 300+ pages and over 250 illustrations. Most of the contents are threaded but in some areas this was not possible. I need to insert a new figure into approximately page 50 and because of the way this spread is formatted, this new figure can not be threaded.

Of course when I insert my new figure in the document (physically it should be Figure 53) it of course becomes the last figure in the document Figure 255. I can't obviously begin copy / pasting every figure south of this to try to re-order my figures.  I have be researching this for hours now, and have only been able to find the copy / paste method of getting my numbering to be physically accurate vs chronologically accurate.

This seems to be something that would be a regular occurrence for people working on certain types of publications. I guess that often, the figures would re-start with each section making the copy / paste somewhat less arduous but still...I feel like I must be missing something.

Any help would be ••greatly•• appreciated!

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Reflow non-threaded figure numbers?

New Here ,
May 02, 2019

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Greetings all, and thanks for your time.

I produce a textbook with 300+ pages and over 250 illustrations. Most of the contents are threaded but in some areas this was not possible. I need to insert a new figure into approximately page 50 and because of the way this spread is formatted, this new figure can not be threaded.

Of course when I insert my new figure in the document (physically it should be Figure 53) it of course becomes the last figure in the document Figure 255. I can't obviously begin copy / pasting every figure south of this to try to re-order my figures.  I have be researching this for hours now, and have only been able to find the copy / paste method of getting my numbering to be physically accurate vs chronologically accurate.

This seems to be something that would be a regular occurrence for people working on certain types of publications. I guess that often, the figures would re-start with each section making the copy / paste somewhat less arduous but still...I feel like I must be missing something.

Any help would be ••greatly•• appreciated!

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May 02, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 02, 2019

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Hi,

Can you confirm the version of InDesign and of the Operating System?

How did you add the content in your document? Was it imported from MS Word, or Pasted in, did you use Articles...?

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May 02, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 02, 2019

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Hi Eric.

I‘m using ID cc (latest by subscription) on Mac OSX (latest).  All of the content was either authored in ID or pasted into the document and no, haven’t used Articles.

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May 02, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 02, 2019

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Hi Daniel:

It's not ideal, but you can just override the two numbers by opening up the Bullets and Numbering directly (and not editing the style). When you add your new figure, edit the List Type: Numbers to Mode: Start at 53. Then edit the current 53 to start at 54. The rest will update accordingly.

~Barb

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May 02, 2019 1
New Here ,
May 02, 2019

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Hi Barb.

Thanks for the suggestion. You're right, definitely not ideal...this is a popular training text in a highly regulated industry with frequent updates. Forcing something like this is just begging for serious (and very difficult to spot) errors to be introduced in the future.

I am really hoping that there is some other correct way to handle this given a) that we do in fact have the ability to have numbering span unthreaded blocks and stories, and b) I would guess this to be fairly common situation in layout.

Given that copy / past reorders lists, I don't understand why there wouldn't / couldn't be an "order" button that says "PLACE BEFORE" and just let us select or enter a number from the list...AND give us a "Auto-Reflow" button (based on physical location) when we get into trouble with "Place Before" (which I'm sure some would) : )

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May 02, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 02, 2019

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Daniel308  wrote

because of the way this spread is formatted, this new figure can not be threaded.

If you can't thread figure's frame, you still should be able to anchor it.

Just click and drag the blue port somewhere between figure 52 and figure 53.

Not knowing your layout, you might be careful about possible reflowing issues. You can change anchored object options if needed.

See example below:

thread.gif

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May 02, 2019 1
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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Sorry Vinny but truly not convinced! …

Here 3 threads with "blue" anchored and "red" not-anchored frames! …

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.49.07.png

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.49.22.png

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.49.33.png

I could add a full-page figure 36 on the page 6 to be clearer! …

That means anchor images is not alway possible where they would need to be anchored!

BUT, what is possible is to anchor a text frame with the numbering and create a cross-reference for each unanchored figure caption!

Like this, the game becomes really simple:

Here, I've removed the "old" anchored figure 28 and update the cross-ref.:

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.50.24.png

Now, same thing with the "old" not-anchored figure 25:

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.51.41.png

As you see, the "new" figures 29 and 28 are not nice!

It's totally normal because of the anchor of the figure 28 we found now "before" the anchor of the figure 29!

… So just let's move it!

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 12.52.22.png

Of course, to play, the user will need a workable text flow! but if he makes some layout efforts, he could win the game!

BTW, he could need a simple tool like this one:  place the cursor in the text and play a script that will anchor at this place a new "num" text frame, create a not-anchored graphic frame asking the user what image he wants to be imported adding its caption with the corresponding cross-ref.! The only thing to do after that is to place the figure on the right page! … Manually! 

To finish, of course, the user can make the source numbering of the not-anchored figures totally invisible [object style]!

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 13.20.05.png

Capture d’écran 2019-05-03 à 13.19.48.png

Best regards,

Michel, fro FRIdNGE

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May 03, 2019 1
Guide ,
May 03, 2019

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Hi Michel,

As I said, "Not knowing your layout, you might be careful about possible reflowing issues"

Questions without screenshots should not even be answered

Now, if the question simply is: is there an alternative to threading in order to keep numbered paragraph continuous, I intend to answer "yes there is: anchoring."

If the question is: how do you maintain perfect flowing using threading and/or anchoring, without off-limit anchored object, my answer would be: "Please provide detailed screenshots. Flowing isn't a piece of cake."

However, I like your approach. It opens a wide range of possibilities.


Regards

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May 03, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 03, 2019

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Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Vinny, yes I understand; an illustration is always helpful so please see attached. In this scenario, which to me seems a very reasonable layout circumstance for technical publications and magazine layout, I don't think any of the suggestions so far would really work that well.

I just don't understand how there isn't a very simple software solution to this. It seems the only option I've heard so far is that I perform a copy / paste on everything south of "f7" in my illustration. Again IF InDesign is smart enough to remember the "creation" order, why can't we simply manipulate this hidden order? Figure-Insert-Issue.jpg

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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???

You seem to show us that if the "actual f5" jumps to the 4th text frame, becoming "f9", because f6 … f9 will become f5 … f8!

… And adding the "new f7" (in fact now "new f6"), the "old f7" will become "new f7" … and at the end the "old f13" will be the "new f14"!

If right, it's exactly what you get with what I explained! … if you "anchor" num f6 …num f9 after f5, the result will be what you show!

If, now, you move f5 in the 4th text frame, placing the 5 anchors before f5 in the 3rd text frame, you will have:

blue: f1, f2, f3, f4

green: f5, f6, f7, f8, f9

blue: f10, f11, f12, f13, f14

Of course, if you don't move f5 and just add f7 (anchor after f6), f7 (old) will become f8 …

So, your problem is really simple!

… and there's even another way so simple without taking in account if the figures are anchored or not! just counting them page after page, vertically, then horizontally!, if you have 100 figures, be sure that the first figure will be "figure 1" and the last … "figure 100"!

1 click to do the job!

Have a good WE!

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May 03, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 03, 2019

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Hi Michel.

I don't think you understand my illustration. F5 in my illustration shouldn't be jumping anywhere. Everything after I insert my new F7 figure should move one list position forward without ANY CONTENT moving anywhere. I can not anchor any of my green content inside the blue text thread. The green box is a layout unto itself, but the illustrations within, still need to be numbered, dynamic, while the blue content flows around it.

If in this illustration, I were to insert a figure just after F3, I would need current F5 to move to current position F10, and all of the green figure (NUMBERS ONLY) to also update by one list position—without the content physically moving.

It seems to me that this post has more relevant ideas (or theory) and content than any I've found previously, but still very convoluted it seems for such a simple task.


Also Michel, I don't mean to be critical, but I'm assuming you're used to working alone...by the half dozen "!'s" in your response : )

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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You just add a new f7 and want that have the following numbering f7 to f13 updated (become f8 to f14)?!

Right?

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May 03, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 03, 2019

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Yes; and without ANY content moving anywhere. Just the new Fig 7 inserted and the list numbers increasing   : )

I need the list numbering to flow through the green layout, but none of the content from the blue frames.

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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Aha! I think you think I don't understand you but in fact it seems to me it's you who don't understand what it seems to me so obvious!

Clear! … 

The green figures won't move even if you add a new green fig 7! Why? Just because they are not anchored in the main thread!

They are just linked to it through cross-references that just update their numbering!

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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… and the blue figures don't move too!

Their numbering are just updated! That's all!

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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So, adding the new f7, now you will have:

blue: f1, f2, f3, f4, f5

green: f6, new f7, f8, f9, f10

blue: f11, f12, f13, f14

Nothing moves, except the adding of the new f7!

Right?

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May 03, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 03, 2019

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This sounds wonderful Michel. And although I don't question the validity of what you're saying, I've re-read your post several times and and although I'm familiar with cross references and do use them, I just don't understand how exactly you are using them to solve the problem. It's Friday though...Maybe I'll have a drink or something and read through it again a bit later.

I'm sure interested though to see if this provides an intelligible solution for others. Thanks again Michel.

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May 03, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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Just ask here to Barbara Binder, Eric Dumas or Vincent what they think I'm able to imagine and build and you'll have your answer!

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May 03, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 06, 2019

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Hi Daniel.

Back from week-end, I can see your question did stir up passions

I had a careful look at your schema, but something bugs me...

And I'm not even talking about adding a "new F7"...

How come you can get green figures numbered F6 to F9 if they're not part of the flow?

And how come you could jump from F5 to F10 without manual intervention?

Unless I'm missing something obvious, this just can't be...

In real life, it should look like this, right?:

schema.jpg

Could you clarify?

Cheers

Vinny

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May 06, 2019 0
Mentor ,
May 03, 2019

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I haven't looked carefully at all the answers/screenshots, but I believe the answer is very simple.

Click New List in the List menu of the Numbers dialog box.

Define the list to reflow across stories. Apply that list to the numbering options.

Now, any text that uses that list for numbering will keep the sequence.

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May 03, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 03, 2019

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Hi Sandee.

If I understand you correctly, are you suggesting to "re-apply" a second custom list list to the paragraph style being used for the figures?  I am already using a custom list...and then do this each time a new figure is inserted? Will this force InDesign to re-sort the list based on position?

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May 03, 2019 0
Mentor ,
May 04, 2019

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As long as you're using a paragraph style, there's no problem.

Open the paragraph style dialog box, then move to Bullets and Numbers.

In the List menu of Bullets and Numbers, chose New List. Then name the list and choose Continue Numbers Across Stories. This will allow you to put a frame with that paragraph style between two other frames that have that paragraph style for numbers without linking the text.

Two notes: If you want to edit that numbered list, you need to go to the Type > Bullets and Numbering > Define Lists.

If you want to change the numbering order of the frame that has the numbering style, you need to copy/paste or Opt/Alt-Drag to create a new frame with a new order. I haven't worked too much with re-ordering and there may be a better way than duplicating the frame.

But it certainly does allow a free-standing frame to continue the numbering.

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May 04, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 04, 2019

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Hi Sandee.

Thanks for the info, but setting up the numbering isn't the issue. As per my original question, I'm working with a 300+ page text book with 4 custom number lists—very advanced numbering and have had lots of experience with this over a 15+ year career and everything works fine (well at least the numbering part : ) ) until...I need to plug a new figure into spreads that are non-threaded but still need to be sequentially numbered. When there are 60+ illustrations in the section of the book, after the illustration I'm adding, copy / paste is not at all an option.

So far Vinny's suggestion of anchoring a text box that contains the Figure List paragraph style is the only one I've had any partial success with. It actually does work (force the proper list sequence in the List), but the anchor itself is very problematic because I have to anchor it within content that needs to remain very fluid around the "island" layout where the anchored List style needs to live. It can not ever move. So solutions like this force me to work in a manner that requires me "cataloging" areas of my document that have these vulnerabilities to double-check every time an edit is made in the text.

Michel's suggestion of using cross-references sounds theoretically like a good tool because it could be an option that remains completely independent of any content's physical location provided the references are properly managed.

***please InDesign Team, just give me an "Arrange / Insert Before" function and the ability to choose a target frame.••• And / or an "Auto-reflow List "X"

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May 04, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 04, 2019

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Hi Sandy.

I just now had the opportunity to read the article you wrote Arranging Numbered Lists in Separate Frames that Michel was kind enough to include (thanks Michel). That's actually a neat little trick for the tool chest, thanks for that. Alas, it's unmanageable for the number of illustrations I have. I'd spend the better part of an afternoon trying to arrange 100 layers : )

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May 04, 2019 0
Mentor ,
May 05, 2019

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Daniel308

Did you read the article in InDesign Secrets on how to force the numbers to reorder? (https://indesignsecrets.com/arranging-numbered-lists-separate-frames.php) Did you make a custom list set to reflow across stories? Did you test adding a numbered figure to any page in the middle of the document?

Because if you did you'd find that everything you want can be done just with the list command.

Because you don't need any of the cumbersome workarounds that have been suggested here.

I just wish I had a 15+ year career instead of 26+ years teaching and writing about page layout programs .

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May 05, 2019 0
Mentor ,
May 05, 2019

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Daniel308

You don't have to arrange 100 layers. And most likely adding the text frame with the figure number is all that you would need to do.

I don't understand your intractability in accepting a solution that is 1000 times easier than the kludges you think will work.

I've told you more than once that you need a List defined to reflow across stories. Are you aware of where that setting is?

Would it help if I created a video to show you how simple the solution is?

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May 05, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 03, 2019

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Sure! …

Personally, I always look carefully at the original demand and all the previous answers/screenshots [especially mine] too, and, of course, I didn't ignore your article on this way written elsewhere 5 years ago!

https://indesignsecrets.com/arranging-numbered-lists-separate-frames.php

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May 03, 2019 0
Mentor ,
May 04, 2019

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Michel,

Wow! I was about to congratulate the brilliant person who wrote an article on this technique.

Then I discovered that I wrote the article!

As my English relatives say "Brill. Just brill."

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May 04, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 04, 2019

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Oh Sandee, it's been so long! ...

I applaud the self-congratulation repeated 3 times [never better served than by oneself!], but, sorry, I won't play with you!

It's useless once again! As I already wrote:

"Personally, I always look carefully at the original and all the previous answers/screenshots [especially mine] too ..."

Have a good day!

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May 04, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 04, 2019

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Michel is there any way, you could detail your use of cross-references to overcome this issue? I'm just not sure how you are setting the reference up.

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May 04, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 04, 2019

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Sorry, I can’t! ... I’m cooking at the moment! But sure later!

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May 04, 2019 0
Advocate ,
May 04, 2019

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Daniel, private message sent! …

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May 04, 2019 0