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Weird ligature issues

Community Beginner ,
Feb 15, 2011

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I work at a printing company and we do prepress on InDesign CS5 print jobs. We have ran into a type problem that we would like to know if others have had and if there is a preventative solution for. We've had two InDesign CS5 jobs develop this strange problem in the past month.

If automatic ligatures are turned on (and they are invariably), certain letter pairs will swap out with single glyphs as if they are ligatures despite the fact that they should not be ligatures. Once you turn automatic ligatures off, the pairs go back to the way they are supposed to be (but, all your good ligatures go away as well).

Here is an example:

In the document I have currently, the pairs ek and eh convert to the ligature glyph fi and the > symbol. Thus, if I type "seek behind", you would get "sefi b>ind". Turn off the automatic ligatures, and the problem goes away.

This problem is particularly insidious in that there is no warning for it. You load up the fonts, you open the InDesign file, and the pairs have changed themselves since the last time it was opened. If you aren't looking for it, you will not notice that it has changed.

Has anyone seen this problem or know what causes it? What preventative measures can be done to keep it from occurring other that manually turning off ligatures on all text in all InDesign jobs?

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Weird ligature issues

Community Beginner ,
Feb 15, 2011

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I work at a printing company and we do prepress on InDesign CS5 print jobs. We have ran into a type problem that we would like to know if others have had and if there is a preventative solution for. We've had two InDesign CS5 jobs develop this strange problem in the past month.

If automatic ligatures are turned on (and they are invariably), certain letter pairs will swap out with single glyphs as if they are ligatures despite the fact that they should not be ligatures. Once you turn automatic ligatures off, the pairs go back to the way they are supposed to be (but, all your good ligatures go away as well).

Here is an example:

In the document I have currently, the pairs ek and eh convert to the ligature glyph fi and the > symbol. Thus, if I type "seek behind", you would get "sefi b>ind". Turn off the automatic ligatures, and the problem goes away.

This problem is particularly insidious in that there is no warning for it. You load up the fonts, you open the InDesign file, and the pairs have changed themselves since the last time it was opened. If you aren't looking for it, you will not notice that it has changed.

Has anyone seen this problem or know what causes it? What preventative measures can be done to keep it from occurring other that manually turning off ligatures on all text in all InDesign jobs?

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LEGEND ,
Feb 15, 2011

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Never seen this, but I haven't looked, either. Is this restricted to a particular font?

One workaround might be to use find change to insert a non-joiner between the two characters.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 15, 2011

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The first time we encountered it, the document was using Formata Condensed. The second time we had the problem, it was Adobe Garamond Pro, like you will get from owning Creative Suite.

Both times, we had to turn off ligatures to make the problem go away. I think it may be related to corrupt font caches (as a printer, we see a lot of people's fonts in a day). We are running Macs and we use FontNuke regularly to keep font caches fresh and uncorrupted. Still it could be cool to know what causes the problem, and what we could to to prevent it from occurring.

"One workaround might be to use find change to insert a non-joiner between the two characters."

This sounds like a great way to repair the problem without removing the "good" ligatures.

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Community Beginner ,
May 24, 2011

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We've had another one of these issues pop up. I am going to post a PDF of this on our website:

http://www.wpcrds.com/index.php/blogs/55-weird-adobe-bugs/83-eh-a-ek-replaced-by-ligatures

We can only get this to occur in InDesign CS5 on Macintosh, on a machine with a corrupt font cache. We have not been able to repeat it on the same machine with a corrupt font with InDesign CS3. Open the PDF on the website and check out the sticky notes in it.

Everywhere the letters eh and ek occur, ID CS5 replaces them automatically with either a strange symbol or an "fi" ligature. If you turn off ligatures, the problem goes away, but so do the good ligatures.

This is a problem that I don't think most users will run into, as they tend to have one set of fonts they have purchased, loaded, and use commonly. We are a printing company and we are loading client's collected fonts all the time, and so we will have lots of opportunity for corrupted font caches.

I would like Adobe to analyze this and discover what the difference was between CS3 and CS5 that caused this error to occur. Even with the presence of a corrupted font cache, I could not get CS3 to have the same problem. Thus, it must be an ID CS5 bug. This bug has wasted plenty of money so far. Please look at it and address the issue.

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LEGEND ,
May 24, 2011

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You're talking to other user like yourself here, not techsupport or the engineers for ID. To file a bug report, go to Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

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Community Beginner ,
May 24, 2011

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Thanks!

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LEGEND ,
May 24, 2011

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Err, if you want any feedback or want anything more than the hit-or-miss might-fix-it-but-might-not, you'll need to open a support case. http://adobe.com/go/wish.

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New Here ,
Dec 14, 2011

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Wechp,

This is similar to the issue we are having we get hn changing to Ú  or Ÿ

Did upgrading to cs5.5 fix this issue or are you still having the problem?

We also run cache cleaners before every job but this seems to pop up still.

Thanks

Matt

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LEGEND ,
Dec 14, 2011

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Matt,

Your symptoms look to me like they may be casued by some third party pugin or other conflict. Do you have any non-adobe plugins installed? Font manager?

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New Here ,
Dec 14, 2011

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Peter,

We are not using any font managment tools at present.

We are placing a font folder for the jobs into the application>Indesign cs5 > fonts folder

before we load the fonts to this location we clear the .ist file out as well as clearing the system font caches.

see the below post I placed else where

I have been having an issue with Indesign and PDF files

We are getting font character "Glyphs replacing other characters"

Specs of the machines

Mac OsX=10.5.8

ID version=ID-CS5 ver 7.0.3

Acrobat Distiller version = 8.0

Fonts we have had this issue with

Sabon LT Std.

Garamond MT Regular

Fairfield LT STD

TimesLT Std

Palatino LT Std

Minion Pro Regular

Verdana Italic

Times New Roman PS

Characters that have been causing the issues.

io, il, hn, SY

The characters they are replaced with.

Ú Ÿ Õ Š §

We run font cache cleaners such as Font Nuke, Font smasher and we even created our own from information found in other places where all the font cache's hide as well as suitcase's.

We tend to catch this issue in out PDF files we are actually but it does show up in the Indesign file, but you can close indesign and then reopen it and the issue is gone.

This lead us to believing it was a system font cache issue.

We process many jobs on a given day via 3 different machines that are setup to create PDF files.

We have a Process in place that before every job we clean the font cache and restart the machine.  Now I do not know if people are following this procedure all the time but we do have this issue appear like every 3 weeks when we get more work going thru the workflows.

I am looking for other Solutions to what this could be, would upgrading to cs5.5 help solve this issue? Could it be Indesigns Preference file getting bashed as well?  How can I better search for these characters.

We have been finding new characters it has replaced so its not always the same characters one time it was

joŸ =john

joÚ =john this was the latest.

junk_characters.jpg

Thank you for any responses.

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LEGEND ,
Dec 14, 2011

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I've been watching the other thread, too.

I don't think this is a genal problem with ID or the fonts as most of these I recognize as high quality fonts and ones in common usage. I would expect genuine bugginess to show up in may more posts about the problem. It's also VERY strange to me that you are getting glyph substitution on two-glyph combinations that are not standard ligatures, and the behavior where the problem disappears if you restart InDesign all point, in my opinion, to some sort of system-specific issue.

Replacing the prefs is certainly an easy task, and one worth trying if you haven't done it already, but be sure you do it right. See Replace Your Preferences

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New Here ,
Dec 14, 2011

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This is what we thought as well some more history of the Problems.

We discovered the problem back in July

We orginally were running the following systems

Mac OSX 10.5 and ID-CS5 ver 7.0.0.355

We did not have this issue with CS4 jobs.

So we decided to do some upgrades in steps and we kept having the issue

Mac OSX 10.5.1 then we went to  10.5.6  and now we are 10.5.8

When we still had issue we changed Indesign ID-CS5 ver 7.0.3

We also purchased a new Machine this has

10.6.4 and ID-CS5 ver 7.0.4

At present the common issue seems to be Indesign Cs5 and what ever revision number. Our Next step will be to do an upgrade to cs5.5 to see if that has fixed the issue.

Message was edited by: Mattwbrt Changes OS 11.6 to 10.6

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LEGEND ,
Dec 14, 2011

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I understand the problem is manifesting in InDesign, but t5hat doesn't mean ID is the source of the problem. What ELSE do you have running in terms of browsers, utilities, plugins, and so forth that is common to all of these installations?

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