P: Horizontal flip, opens upside down after "Edit In Photoshop"

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Participant ,
Mar 16, 2019 Mar 16, 2019

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In Lightroom CC Classic v8.2 I have an image that I flipped horizontally.
Then I 'open in Photoshop'  (version 20.0.3) and it is upside down.
If I rorate 180 degrees, then it shows correctly.

It is not clear if the fault is with LR or PS.

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26 Comments
Participant ,
Mar 16, 2019 Mar 16, 2019

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I updated PS to 20.0.4 and the problem remains. Also, a vertically flipped image is rotated 180 degrees.

Source file was a CR2 raw file from Canon 70D, 350D and 400D.
It doesn't occur with a SONY ARW file (camera = A580)

I dont see this problem with a JPG or PSD (from a Canon source file) - however for these I have the dialog asking if I want to open the original or with LR edits. Maybe this dialog handles the orientation fields correctly.




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Enthusiast ,
Mar 16, 2019 Mar 16, 2019

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No problem with .orf files (Olympus), neither .tif nor .psd
macOS 10.14.3 PS 20.0.4

Yves Crausaz, Suisse, retraité actif dans le monde de la photo et des arts graphiques.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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Try opening one of the problematic files directly with Photoshop from the HD (not through Lightroom)

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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In Lightroom CC Classic v8.2 I have an image that I flipped horizontally.
Then I 'open in Photoshop'  (version 20.0.3) and it is upside down.
When changing the orientation of a file inside LR you need to perform a 'Save Metadata to File' operation (CTRL/CMD +S keys).  This allows other programs to read the EXIF orientation correction data and apply it on opening.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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When changing the orientation of a file inside LR you need to perform a 'Save Metadata to File' operation (CTRL/CMD +S keys).  This allows other programs to read the EXIF orientation correction data and apply it on opening.
Not when opening from Lightroom???  I have auto write to amp turned on but believe if you open from Lightroom all Lightroom settings are honoured.


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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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Yes, it will work correctly when using 'Edit in PS' or Export, but the OP said "Then I 'open in Photoshop'  (version 20.0.3) and it is upside down."

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Participant ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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Thanks Todd - yes, there should be no need to save any meta data, I would expect LR and PS to do 'the right thing'. 
I dont want to save it this way and open it that way .... "open in Photoshop" should just work.

Also - it doesn't matter if the image has been cropped either. A full image or cropped image does the same thing.

I have tried lots of files now and I believe it is only Canon Raw files that show this problem. I have 350D,400D and 70D files to try so they go back a long way.
I can't recall every flipping an image in LR before editing in PS so this fault may have been there for a very long time.

To be honest it's not a big problem as I can fix it anyway, and once fixed I always save as PSD.
Just more of a niggle.

I assumed Adobe staff read these threads as I was told this is the place to report bugs.








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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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You may try the following. In Photoshop go to Preferences - Performance. Toggle the setting for ‘Ignore Rotation Metadata’.
-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 17, 2019 Mar 17, 2019

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I can't recall every flipping an image in LR before editing in PS so this fault may have been there for a very long time.
If you're using 'Edit in PS' inside LR there's no need to 'Save Metadata to File.' With raw files there is no option for 'Edit Original,' 'Edit a Copy with Lightroom,' etc. The file opens in PS using the PS Camera Raw plugin in the background to apply ALL of your Develop settings including rotation and flip. If you're using 'Edit in PS' with non-raw JPEG or TIFF files you must choose the option 'Edit a Copy with Lightroom adjustments' to have the LR rotation or flip edit applied to the file that opens in PS.

I have PS's Preference> Performance> 'Ignore Rotation Metadata' unchecked and LR Rotate and Flip is working with no issues using Canon 300D, 600D, 5D MKII, and 6D CR2 raw files using LR 8.2 and PS 2.0.4 or any JPEG or TIFF file as outlined above.

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Participant ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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Thanks for the tips but they don't help.

Firstly, I could not find the option under performance - but it does exist under file handling.
I have it UNCHECKED.
I tried to check it and I still get an upside down image.

PS 20.0.4
Windows 10


So ... there is still an issue but maybe it is only on my setup.




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Adobe Employee ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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Phillip,
We couldn't reproduce the issue.
The rotation is maintained if you are using the "Edit in PS" option or opening in PS after saving the metadata.
Please let us know if the problem persists.
We can contact you off list to get the files you use.

Thanks,
Sunil

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Participant ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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I'm happy to supply any log/info files. I get the problem on "every" CR2 file I have tried. Please contact me directly and let me know what files you need.

It does look like a local setup issue since nobody else has it.

I made a simple movie of the fault - just incase nobody beleives me ! 🙂
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zgy4fv9564zrbs1/PS_Flip2.mov?dl=0

I have an old graphics card which has caused a few problems in the past - AMD Radeon HD 6570. I tried disabling 'use graphics processor' on the performance tab (and also in the ACR processing section) and the problem still happens.




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Participant ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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I have more info....  I dont use the import option in LightRoom.
I use BreezeBrowser to copy images from memory card to folders. It creates folders based on yy/mm/dd and prefixes the files with the camera model. The ONLY thing it changes is the filename and optionally IPTC tags.
Then I 'Sync' folders in LR .... so any new subfolders/files will be detected and will update my catalogue.


Most of the time I shoot RAW and JPG so I have 2 files for each image.
In all of my tests, this problem has occured on folders where I have both JPG and CR2 files.

I have located files where I ONLY shot RAW - so only a CR2 file present and no JPG file.
The problem DOES NOT occur on these files.

Based on this, I think the problem is with LR and based on the way the orientation flag is stored, and also passed onto PS.



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Participant ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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Ignore that last update ..... I have done fresh tests.

I took 6 test shots - 3 as RAW+JPG and 3 as RAW only.
the 3 shots were landscape orientation, and portrait/left and portrait/right.

The problem does NOT occur on landscape images - but it does occur on both types of portrait image.
And it does not matter if I have JPG versions or not.

Looking at the EXIF orientation flags ...
Landscape shows as 'TOP LEFT'
But the portrait versions show it as 'Left Bottom' and 'Left Top'


The next test was to save the meta data (I had a label showing that the meta data has been changed in LR).
After saving the meta data, the image (portrait orientation, and flipped horizontally) opened correctly in PS.


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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 18, 2019 Mar 18, 2019

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The problem does NOT occur on landscape images - but it does occur on both types of portrait image.
I can confirm what you are seeing with portrait orientation raw files.

I tested Canon 5DMKII portrait orientated CR2 files with EXIF Orientation 'Rotate 270 CW' due to manual rotation of the camera 90 degrees CCW from 'Horizontal (normal)' orientation.

1) When LR 'Flip Horizontal' is applied inside LR 'Edit in PS' (CTRL +E) opens the file in PS with the image properly 'Flipped Horizontal,' but also incorrectly Rotated 180 degrees. See below example.

2) When LR 'Flip Vertical' is applied inside LR 'Edit in PS' (CTRL +E) opens the file in PS with the image properly 'Flipped Vertical,' but also incorrectly Rotated 180 degrees.

3) If a 'Save Metadata to file' (CTRL/CMD +S) command is applied before using 'Edit in PS' the file opens correctly inside PS.

4) With JPEG files when any 'Rotate' or 'Flip' is applied the file's EXIF Orientation data is changed and they open correctly inside PS. I confirmed my Catalog settings> Metadata tab for  'Include Develop settings in metadata inside JPEG, TIFF, PNG, and PSD files' and 'Automatically write changes into XMP' are NOT checked. This may be "by design," but it breaks LR's non-destructive workflow by modifying the file's data when the Catalog settings say it should NOT happen.

*Sunil Bhaskaran please let me know if you can not duplicate this issue as outlined above. Thank you.

169601ms60ds_inline-3e435d52-977f-4eb4-ab0e-ce7f8e5b8aec-111291888.jpg

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Adobe Employee ,
Mar 19, 2019 Mar 19, 2019

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Thanks, Todd Shaner.
It's reproducible. We will investigate.

Thanks,
Sunil

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 19, 2019 Mar 19, 2019

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Thank you Sunil. As an FYI I'm also using Windows 10 same as the OP *Phillip Turner so not sure if this also affects Mac OS X platform.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 19, 2019 Mar 19, 2019

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Sunil,
I just tried this on a Canon 5dmk2 CR2 file using Lr 8.2 and OSX 10.14.3 and the flip horizontal and vertical on a Portrait photo showed up correctly in PS.  This must be a Windows only issue.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 19, 2019 Mar 19, 2019

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Rob, thanks for confirming!

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LEGEND ,
Feb 16, 2021 Feb 16, 2021

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Hello. Can I ask a, perhaps, only somewhat related question. I'm new to shooting RAW + jpeg images. I'm duplicating slides with my Nikon z50. After shooting, I need to flip them horizontally. Does anyone know if there is a way, preferably an easy way, to horizontally flip the RAW + jpeg at the same time, maintaining their size and maintaining a RAW + a jpeg image? My windows photo program flips the jpegs but not the RAW, or, if it flips the RAW, it converts then to jpegs. Any easy way to flip both at the same time, preferably with the same program? Thanks a lot!!!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 17, 2021 Feb 17, 2021

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A couple of points, which may be helpful. If you position the slide with its emulsion facing the camera facing away from the camera there is no need to flip the image files. Also why are you shooting raw + JPEG? The LrC processed raw file with your adjustments, keywording, rating, etc. can be exported to JPEG file format.

To flip horizontal the raw and JPEG files you've already imported select all of them and in the Develop module's bottom right panel click on the switch next to the Sync button (Auto Sync). Then go to menu Photo and click on Flip Horizontal. You can also use CTRL/CMD + S to save the orientation data to the JPEG file, but LrC only writes this metadata to an XMP sidecar for the raw file. Place the Auto Sync switch in the off (Sync) position to stop further auto syncing. 

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LEGEND ,
Feb 17, 2021 Feb 17, 2021

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Very helpful. Thank you. I see, RAW may be sufficient. Numerous instructional vids have said emulsion towards camera, but that necessitates a horizontal flip to get to original orientation, as far as I know at this point.  I'm also debating, use autofocus + autoexposure (hey, I paid for the latest processor) or, as some vids say, strive for a shot at f8 and iso 100 (using Autofucus A and limiting the ISO range)....though this seems (even with lume cube on highest setting) to give me a shutter speed thats so slow I dont know, for certain, it will stop any camera shake. Thoughts? Thanks again.

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LEGEND ,
Feb 17, 2021 Feb 17, 2021

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While Im at it I might as well ask.... Im digitizing 600 slides of a friends professional artwork. How will these images be used in the future? Not entirely sure. Is "safest" method to shoot RAW files, in that "anything" can be done with them in the future? Or, would a high resolution jpeg be sufficient. From my limited exploration, manipulation of the jpeg seems easier, even the photo app in Windows can flip images, crop etc. If I use RAW, Ill need a RAW image processor, in other words a more complex program, to manipulate the images, though I frankly dont plan to do much, other than flipping them horizontally at this point. RAW "safer"? Thanks

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 17, 2021 Feb 17, 2021

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"If I use RAW, Ill need a RAW image processor, in other words a more complex program, to manipulate the images, though I frankly dont plan to do much, other than flipping them horizontally at this point."

This post is a discussion on using Lightroom Classic and I wrongfully assumed that's what you were using. Concerning the emulsion direction you are correct in that it should be facing away from the camera (senior moment) which will prevent the need to flip horizontal. Does that make sense now?

Concerning the camera settings you'll need to test it for yourself using the auto focus and auto exposure settings and see how consistent focus and exposure are in the camera files. Concerning lighting I use an electronic flash (Canon 270EX) set to a fixed 1/16 output with 1/200 shutter speed, which is the fastest usable flash sync speed.

Concerning raw vs JPEG raw provides more exposure latitude, since no processing is applied to the image data. Slide film (Especially Kodachrome) uses a very high contrast emulsion, which is designed for use with a slide projector. This can cause camera JPEG files to have areas of the image pushed into both black and white clipping, which is not recoverable. What can help if you want to shoot JPEG only is to set the camera's picture style to a lower contrast setting like Camera Neutral. Again, raw file format provides more latitude and ability to recover shadow and highlight areas that would otherwise be clipped in the JPEG image file. You'll need to test it with a variety of slides to see how well it works. 

Here's a Luminous Landscape article Mark Segal and I wrote on scannerless capture using a digital camera. It focuses on negative film, but may still be of interest.

https://luminous-landscape.com/articleImages/CameraScanning.pdf

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LEGEND ,
Feb 17, 2021 Feb 17, 2021

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Once again, thanks so much. From what you say it might be safer to shoot just in RAW. I can then make high quality JPEGS from the RAW file? (sorry for such a basic question).  Just downloaded Nikon Capture NX-D. So far, I see it will rotate RAW images, but, at least so far, I don't see the ability to flip the image horizontally. Odd, to me, if its not included. Is there an easy way to do this flipping...ideally without paying for an expensive program? 

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