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P: Multiple dng files from conversion

Community Beginner ,
Sep 22, 2018 Sep 22, 2018

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After conversion of tiffs to dngs, I have multiple dngs!!!

Here's the details...

After importing a series of tiff images, I converted the tiffs into Adobe dngs files.  After restasrting LR 7.5, I find that I have multiple dngs!?!   At least three (3)!

RackMultipart20180923119611uam-41da220c-d5dc-419d-8671-64c1f2fb9990-2084187727.pngRackMultipart20180923119611uam-41da220c-d5dc-419d-8671-64c1f2fb9990-2084187727.png

Really?  Seriously?

My Finder does not show these duplicates as actually existing.  So where in the heck did they come from?

Bug Acknowledged
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macOS , Windows

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57 Comments
LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Show me with equations and data structures how a tifand a raw file, both derived from an ISO standard.
No equations necessary. Just double click on an actual rendered TIFF and the raw it was rendered from and tell us they behave identically IF you can. 

Convert that rendered TIFF to DNG. Convert the raw to DNG. Tell us you really believe they are identical. Then we can see it's time to ignore you request for any help here....
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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The raw file format has the extension .tif.  One does not require a post-processor to open it.  You can see it in Mac OS Finder and of course, Lightroom.  However, if one opens the file in a text editor, one will see that the header is somewhat different and there is present some included data information, including handles which a DICOM reader can see.

Do you know what a DICOM image file is, sir?

And please do not insult my Photoshop guru; she knows Photoshop but she is not an engineer and does not pretend to know anything about the internal data structures of image files (as you pretend to do so).

My writing was prefectly clear.  Except to you, because you made an assumption based upon your imperfect knowledge.  (Remember the old adage, when one makes an assumption he makes an ass out of u and me.   In this case, more u than me.)

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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How about we just agree to ignore each other?  I've been ready to stop for quite some time, but clearly you have no life beyond the keyboard.  The day I need help from someone as pompous as you will be when Hell freezes over.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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IF it's got a TIFF extension, I suspect it's indeed a TIFF and not raw and I'd ask you to upload a file to examine but expect it will fall on deaf ears. If it isn't raw, then the two of us were indeed absolutely correct in pointing out, there's zero reason to convert a TIFF to DNG. But heck, it's your workflow and you've got the super guru who apparently wasn't super enough to help you on basic LR workflow. 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Didn't work super guru.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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What part of 'ignore' do you not understand?  (My apologies if English is not your native language.)  Please refrain from replying to ANY of my posts going forward.  There are enough trolls out there...we don't need another.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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What part of 'ignore' do you not understand?  
What part of an open forum community do you not understand? 
What part about converting from raw vs. TIFF to DNG do you not (yet) understand? 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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1) DNG file compression is better than TIFF ZIP compression (smaller file size)
2) DNG has a full-size Embedded Preview (speeds Import using Embedded & Sidecar Preview Building setting)
I'm not saying these are overwhelming reason to convert TIFFs to DNGs, but to some users it may be a benefit. Downside is DNG files don't support layers (layered TIFFs are flattened).

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Of course, you didn't answer the question. 
Seems she's not so super after all. 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Ah but with ZIP or LZW compression? 
Why do you need a full sized embedded preview when the entire image is rendered and can be previewed? Or the embedded thumbnail we see in the Finder? 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Troll alert!

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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"The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about". -Wayne Dyer
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Søren Kierkegaard
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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Took a big layered image, converted to DNG, think the layers are gone. So that's a big problem! 

Took the same file, flatted it, saved as TIFF with LZW and DNG. DNG is smaller indeed. Bad news is, no preview or thumbnail showing up on DNG in Mac Finder (latest OS), but a preview from the TIFF. 

TIFF with LZW is 43MB
DNG is 28.5MB

Difference opening each and what one gets (using Photoshop). 

TIFF with LZW opens in 1 second Photoshop proper, ready to work on.
DNG opens ACR in about the same time (tad slower) but now I've got to process it through ACR.
No free lunch here. And no reason to convert TIFFs to DNG IMHO, at least a few reasons not to convert unless disk space is hugely important to you. And I really don't think anyone with layered TIFFs will wish to convert to DNG! Good-by layers it seems.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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I am sure you are aware that many raw file formats, including IIQ (Phase One), 3FR (Hasselblad), DCR, K25, KDC (Kodak), CRW CR2 CR3 (Canon), ERF (Epson), MEF (Mamiya), MOS (Leaf), NEF (Nikon), ORF (Olympus), PEF (Pentax), RW2 (Panasonic) and ARW, SRF, SR2 (Sony), are based on the TIFF file format.  

CRW were not based on TIFF, they were based on CIFF.
http://xyrion.org/ciff/CIFFspecV1R04.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_Image_File_Format

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 23, 2018 Sep 23, 2018

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You should get a life.  I think Trump adequately described you as the 400-pound fat man laying in his bed with his computer.

Your first reference clearly states "The first version of this RAW format was .CRW (see also here) and is used by Canon D30, D60, 10D, 300D, PowerShot Pro1, G1-G6, S30-S70. The EOS 1Ds is writing TIFF files."

I won't even bother to cite your second reference and how it also disproves your claim.  (BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, the paragraph you quoted from me came from Wikipedia.  So if you can cite them as your source, so too can anyone else.)

You are only proving my point that you are a classic internet troll.  LOL

Now, please go to bed—oops, my bad; you're already there!—and let the adults in the room continue the discussion.  (I can't believe that the ASMP, of which I have been a dues paying member for decades, allows you to posit yourself as a techincal expert.  I might have to resign in protest.)

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LEGEND ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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The first reference From Canon does not state that with no reference to TIFF as they are NOT based on it as you posted.
Do resign in protest, please.
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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“I think Trump adequately described you as the 400-pound fat man laying in his bed with his computer.”

And I’m the Troll.

“Hypocrite: The man who murdered his parents, and then pleaded for mercy on the grounds that he was an orphan.”― Abraham Lincoln
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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Andrew, I already mentioned DNGs do no not support layers and neither do raw files. This discussion concerns working with files inside LR so I would think results with PS, ACR, Finder are secondary.

"Why do you need a full sized embedded preview when the entire image is rendered and can be previewed?"

DNG files can be updated when develop edits have been applied using 'Update DNG Preview & Metadata.' This updates the embedded develop settings AND the embedded preview with those settings rendered. Using TIFF file format you can also embed the develop metadata, but the image data and resulting previews remain unchanged (not rendered). When importing DNG files the Library previews render very quickly since LR is simply reading the full-size embedded preview. When importing TIFF files with embedded settings LR must render Standard and 1:1 previews using the embedded develop settings, which takes considerably longer.

This may be a useful when multiple people are involved in the editing and reviewing processes. This benefit applies whether the original files are RGB rendered TIFFs or actual raw files. Regardless, converting TIFFs to DNG should not cause any issues such as creating phantom extra copies correct?

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Community Expert ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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Guys, the arguing isn't helping. Drop it.

dmeephd, I agree it's some kind of catalog corruption. Here's a similar case which is the case used in bug LRD-4199245, currently in test.

If you're happy that all of the metadata you need would be retained by writing the metadata to the files, I'd run a backup and remove that whole folder and add it again. I suspect that may do the trick. 

Before you do though, can I get a copy of that catalog to add to the bug report please? You can zip it up and use www.wetransfer.com to send it to me at uploads@lightroomqueen.com and I can upload it to the bug.
______________________
The Lightroom Queen - Author of the Lightroom Missing FAQ & Edit Like a Pro books.

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Adobe Employee ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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I have cross-referenced this thread against Victoria's bug referenced here and marked the thread as in-progress. When an update is available to fix this issue, we will post to this thread. Thank you. 

Let's keep the thread on-topic and take the peripheral discussions elsewhere. 
Rikk Flohr - Customer Advocacy: Adobe Photography Products

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LEGEND ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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dmeephd, I agree it's some kind of catalog corruption
And yet, when I asked him to try importing the DNG into a new catalog,  he reported no fix so I don't see how that's the issue. To copy and paste:

AR: Just re-sync the folder(s) or create a new catalog and import. Now what do you see? 
 dmeephd : Didn't work super guru.
Think he really did try with a new catalog?
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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LEGEND ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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Yes Todd, one can update the DNG  preview and metadata but it's kind of pointless with a rendered TIFF, it's all updated every time too.
Multiple edits can be also be embedded by multiple users in the TIFF like DNG. 
 So I see no advantage in TIFF to DNG conversions here. Now the file size IS smaller and I didn't test TIFF with ZIP just due to possible compatibility issues. It may be as small as the DNG. But it's not enough where I can see any advantage and a few disadvantages (like the behavior of Photoshop on the docs) with a DNG from a rendered TIFF. I still see it as utterly pointless. DNG from a proprietary raw, now that's a useful workflow I practice and highly recommend. 
Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"

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Community Expert ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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Andrew, that's not what you were arguing about... and it's not the only reported case. You're just winding each other up and it's not helping anyone.
______________________
The Lightroom Queen - Author of the Lightroom Missing FAQ & Edit Like a Pro books.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 24, 2018 Sep 24, 2018

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Guys, please keep the thread on topic. It's gone round the houses long enough. This isn't a debate about the DNG format. This is a bug report about ghost images.
______________________
The Lightroom Queen - Author of the Lightroom Missing FAQ & Edit Like a Pro books.

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