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I build a web gallery for every job, after making adjustments and when I switch to that module everything becomes darker, contrastier, muddier and redder.
It's a real hassle.
I just updated to the new version 8 but it happened in Version 7 too.
I trashed prefs, rebuilt monitor profiles and rebuilt previews.
None had any effect
Anyone know the answer to this?
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Well, FWIW, I did just that, and they all display identically oversaturated on my wide gamut Eizo CG2730, calibrated with Colornavigator v2 matrix, Windows 10.
The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
EDIT: that's the web module, obviously. Library is correct (as it better be...)
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse wrote
Well, FWIW, I did just that, and they all display identically oversaturated on my wide gamut Eizo CG2730, calibrated with Colornavigator v2 matrix, Windows 10.
The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
Good info. But it doesn't for me and we are told it's a Mac bug. But it's good to know you see this under Windows with the Eizo, I think we can move past worrying about display profile types, where the calibration takes place etc.
I can't be the only person who doesn't have this bug under LR5 nor LR8 and I've tested this and uploaded the captures and measurements so, I don't think it's a brain tumor.
I'd like to find someone here that can tell us they see the two modules match, so we can compare notes about what's in common.
FWIW, running a MacBook Pro 2016 module, lid closed, viewing just on the PA271Q.
But what I'll do after I walk the dogs is unhook it and see if I can replicate the bug on just the MacBook Retina display using of course, it's profile.
I think having the graphic's card used would be helpful too. Mine reported is a Radeon Pro 460.
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thedigitaldog wrote
I think having the graphic's card used would be helpful too.
NVidia Quadro P600, 411.63 driver (latest "Optimal Drivers for Enterprise"-release).
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse wrote
The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
I think you hit the nail on the head!
First off, I do now see the bug on the MacBook Retina. It's quite subtle and I have to figure out why it's different than the NEC.
But here's what I did and what I'd like to ask others to try:
1. Made a screen grab of a very colorful set of images (example below).
2. It's been Assigned my Display profile. That's important. EDIT: Make a copy untagged too!
3. Import into LR 5 first. When I toggle between Library and Web, they appear to match!
First image below is Web, below it is Library. This is in LR5, using the Lightroom HTML Gallery. That's important! That isn't available as far as I can find in LR8. Worse, using the old LR Flash Gallery in LR5, the preview updates differently, desaturated.
Seems the web gallery may play a role here. Which may be why some see it, some don't. Need to do more testing of other galleries, I have far more in LR5 than LR8
LR5, Default HTML gallery, web:
LR5, Library. They match.
LR5, same image, OLD Flash Gallery:
So the web gallery plays a role.
---------------------------------
Now look at LR8 with an UNTAGGED version of the above in Web:
Untagged but in my display color space.
So my brain hurts at this hour, but what do you think D Fosse?
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thedigitaldog wrote
https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse wrote
The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
I think you hit the nail on the head!
Did you read what I wrote several hours ago: "[The Web module] uses a photo's embedded profile but assumes incorrectly that the display's profile is sRGB."
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johnrellis wrote
thedigitaldog wrote
https://forums.adobe.com/people/D+Fosse wrote
The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
I think you hit the nail on the head!
Did you read Re: Color changes between develop and Web Module (darker, redder, contrastier) : "[The Web module] uses a photo's embedded profile but assumes incorrectly that the display's profile is sRGB."
No, it doesn't. IF it did, the untagged image from my wide gamut display wouldn't preview correctly. The images above I provided are NOT in sRGB either. Gotta be something more than that. Nothing I did above involved sRGB, my display isn't anything like sRGB.
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So you don't think D Fosse hit the nail on the head, then?
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johnrellis wrote
So you don't think D Fosse hit the nail on the head, then?
I think he's close and that's why I asked him what he thinks....
I also have no idea why a web gallery selected would make a difference but it appears that it does. Got an old copy of LR5 around? There's a big visual difference between the old HTML default and Flash (maybe Flash is the bug there; too many variables).
What I do know is that now I've seen this, I can report it internally to Adobe. And I'll continue to ask 'there' for comment from an engineer.
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So in your mind, what is the difference between these two statements:
John R. Ellis: [The Web module] uses a photo's embedded profile but assumes incorrectly that the display's profile is sRGB.
D Fosse: The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
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johnrellis wrote
So in your mind, what is the difference between these two statements:
John R. Ellis: [The Web module] uses a photo's embedded profile but assumes incorrectly that the display's profile is sRGB.
D Fosse: The only possible explanation is the "Internet Explorer" model: all document profiles are correctly read, but then converted to sRGB instead of the monitor profile.
That the untagged image that isn't anything like sRGB matching is what I don't (yet) understand. But my head hurts.
Anyway, an OFFICIAL internal bug report with images was just filed. And I'll be like a dog on a bone to keep hounding the engineers to answer or fix.
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there's no bug on this end.
Did you try following the steps in the bug report? It will take just a minute or two.
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Just tried a test on my 2014 MACBOOK PRO running Sierra
Images color looks identical across ALL modules, develop, web, print library
Now.I'm really puzzled...
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Just tried a test on my 2014 MACBOOK PRO running Sierra. Images color looks identical across ALL modules, develop, web, print library.
This is consistent with the behavior observed in my bug report and by others (other than Thedigitaldog): The Web module is ignoring the display profile, converting photos to sRGB instead. On a display whose native color space differs significantly from sRGB (e.g. a wide-gamut display), you'll notice big differences between Library and Web. But on a display whose native color space is close to sRGB, the differences will be hard to discern.
The 2014 MacBook Pro Retina display is supposed to be close to be close to sRGB. On my MacBook Pro Retina (15" mid-2015) display, I observe what you do -- no difference between Library and Web. But on my EIZO CG277, which is close to Adobe RGB, I see more saturation in Web.
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johnrellis wrote The Web module is ignoring the display profile, converting photos to sRGB instead.
What do I do to make this show up?
All screen captures made on a MacBook Pro, PS vs. Web module:
Image on Left is in ProPhoto RGB and previewing as such, image on right is Web Module:
I Assign sRGB to the image that's ProPhoto RGB, again, Web on Right:
I convert the Prophoto RGB image into sRGB as you state but use the Customize Proof Setup in PS to view in sRGB:
Nothing matches Web bug. What's the trick?
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thedigitaldog wrote
Now, that you see a slight difference between Library and Web, while I see them identically is what we need to get to the bottom of.
I don't just see a slight difference, there is a definite increase in saturation in Web.
I have done some further testing – I created two jpgs from the original tiff, then used Save for web to create one version with the ProPhoto profile embedded, and one version where I unchecked Embed profile. Convert to sRGB was unchecked for both. (I made jpgs because IE and Opera cannot display tiffs)
Then I opened both files in Internet Explorer, FastStone image viewer, Opera mail and Directory Opus. (all non-color managed)
The jpg with the profile embedded displayed desaturated in all of them.
The untagged jpg opened over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
Which I see as an indication of the web module not being color managed.
I also tested this in Paint, which for some reason displayed both desaturated.
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Per+Berntsen wrote
thedigitaldog wrote
Now, that you see a slight difference between Library and Web, while I see them identically is what we need to get to the bottom of.
I don't just see a slight difference, there is a definite increase in saturation in Web.
I have done some further testing – I created two jpgs from the original tiff, then used Save for web to create one version with the ProPhoto profile embedded, and one version where I unchecked Embed profile. Convert to sRGB was unchecked for both. (I made jpgs because IE and Opera cannot display tiffs)
Then I opened both files in Internet Explorer, FastStone image viewer, Opera mail and Directory Opus. (all non-color managed)
The jpg with the profile embedded displayed desaturated in all of them.
The untagged jpg opened over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
Which I see as an indication of the web module not being color managed.
I also tested this in Paint, which for some reason displayed both desaturated.
I'm a bit confused by all this. I'm not sure it's necessary. Let's revisit a few items:
1. The text previously stated here was that Web Module isn't color managed. I still do not believe that's at all true. I suspect you don't either. If it were not color managed, my Gamut Test File, or any image you have that's in say ProPhoto RGB, would appear desaturated in that module. As it appears when you open it in say Photoshop as Assign your display profile or sRGB (actually any profile) to that data. Or if you view it in a browser known not to be color managed.
2. There IS a visual disconnect for some, yourself included, between Library and Web. Let's leave Develop out of all this, it's expected that it would produce slightly different (and more correct) previews.
So why is it that on my end and others, Library and Web appear identically but not for others?
It could be the ICC display profile, there are lots of possible settings that could affect it being used 'incorrectly'. It could be that and/or a bug with that profile in LR.
I think those experiencing these issues could provide a lot of useful data by telling us:
1. Your OS and OS version as well as the version of LR.
2. What products you use for the creation of the ICC profile. What settings are used.
3. What kind of display system: wide gamut, sRGB like gamut, and if it's the kind of unit, like mine (NEC SpectraView) where the calibration takes place in the panel, not via the ICC Profile LUT.
4. Can you confirm or deny that in Develop, when soft proofing to sRGB, that preview and your web images (in a color managed browser) match or not?
UNTAGGED images in LR are assumed to be sRGB. Not the case in Photoshop depending on your color settings (whatever RGB working space profile you have loaded there is the assumption).
You could take an sRGB image with an embedded ICC Profile of sRGB, make a copy and remove the embedded profile (untag) and then compare that to the tagged sRGB image in Web. They should match because the data is sRGB (be sure indeed it's an sRGB image) and the untagged image is assumed to be sRGB. Might be worth checking this. It might be a case where due to a bug of some kind, untagged images are not assumed to be sRGB in Web or tagged images are assumed to be that way. Unlikely but worth testing.
Also, important: There are a number of sRGB ICC Profiles floating out there that are NOT the same. This could be an issue too.
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Another test to illustrate for me, Library and Web are identical. This time using ColorMatch RGB. Screen captures made in both modules , assigned Display profile, open in Photoshop and set sampling to 5x5 on Red, Green and Blue Macbeth patches produce identical RGB values. They look identical, the measure identical.
This forum will not allow TIFFs so I've uploaded them should anyone wish to look. They again have the embedded Display Profile.
http://digitaldog.net/files/Web.tiff
http://digitaldog.net/files/Library.tiff
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Per%20Berntsen wrote
The jpg with the profile embedded displayed desaturated in all of them.
The untagged jpg opened over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
I'm sorry, I made a mistake here, this should read
The untagged jpg displayed desaturated in all of them.
The jpg with ProPhoto embedded displayed over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
This of course makes a lot more sense, and confirms what johnrellis wrote above.
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Per+Berntsen wrote
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Per+Berntsen wrote
The jpg with the profile embedded displayed desaturated in all of them.
The untagged jpg opened over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
I'm sorry, I made a mistake here, this should read
The untagged jpg displayed desaturated in all of them.
The jpg with ProPhoto embedded displayed over saturated in all of them, and they all displayed exactly the same as Lightroom Web.
This of course makes a lot more sense, and confirms what johnrellis wrote above.
The untagged JPEGs in Adobe RGB (1998) or worse, ProPhoto RGB should look desaturated in LR without an embedded profile because it assumes sRGB. You can see the same effect in Photoshop assigning sRGB to the Gamut Test File as I showed yesterday.
OVER saturated would be an sRGB imaged, assumed to be in ProPhoto RGB (or something wider than sRGB). Easy to test, take the Gamut Test File which is in ProPhoto RGB and duplicate it. Convert it to sRGB. Assign sRGB to ProPhoto. Assign ProPhoto to sRGB image. You see this: (ProPhoto right, sRGB left):
ProPhoto Assigned sRGB left: desaturated. sRGB assigned ProPhoto right: over saturated.
IF you are seeing sRGB data over saturated in LR, to this degree, LR 'thinks' it's ProPhoto RGB or something wider gamut than sRGB.
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The results provided are quite what I would expect...
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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Per+Berntsen wrote (the Import module isn't color managed either)
Difficult to tell (Very low rez, biggest thumbnail I can make) but that also doesn't appear to be the case:
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Maybe things have changed with Mojave but on High Sierra and Lr 8 the Web module is only PARTIALLY color managed for me.
Library Loupe view
Web Module Page view
Web Module filmstrip thumbnail.
The thumbnail in the Web Module is color managed but the rest of the module is NOT.
I just ignore this bug/poor design as the exported web site is correct and it is really not an issue when you understand what is going on.
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I don't know what 'partially' color managed means.
Again, it's expected that there are differences in color and tone between Develop and all other modules. The only way to accuracy view this is in Develop at 1:1 or greater. Anything zoomed out may look sightly different in any module. That includes thumbnails.
I can show what a ProPhoto RGB image looks like without color management; it's very, very ugly (worse on an sRGB gamut display than wider gamut but still obviously not correct).
It's not a bug. It's kind of a misunderstanding of how and where to view images.
FWIW, even in Photoshop, a zoomed out image can appear different than one zoomed in due to subsampling of the pixels to fit this view. That isn't a bug. It's just the way things work.
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"Partially" was explained in my post. In the web module the thumbnail is color managed but the main window view is not. It has nothing to do with zooming in and out of 1:1 view and my screen clips were not from the develop module. It is a long term issue of the web module and has been acknowledged by Adobe in other posts. Adobe indicated they would probably not be fixing this as the export of the web site is correct. I just ignore the problem as a cosmetic issue as its not that big a deal.
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It's either color managed or it's not. There's no in-between Bob.
The main window in Web matches the main window in Library. You you telling us that Library isn't color managed?
Yes, it does have a lot to do with zooming in our out and yes, the only module that is accurate is Develop because unlike the other's, it isn't using Adobe RGB (1998) built previews.
EVEN Adobe has a page expressing these facts:
Common questions asked about Color in Lightroom CC
The Library module and the second window use different color spaces and methods of rendering image previews than the Develop module. To speed up the curation process inside the Library module, pre-rendered image previews are displayed. These previews are lossy compressed 8-bit JPEGs in Adobe RGB. Depending on the photo, some loss of image details and color differences might happen.
Previews in the Library module and the second window are displayed using the Adobe RGB color space. In the Develop module, by default, Lightroom displays previews using the ProPhoto RGB color space.
These differences, sometimes, make images look different.