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Crop not correctly applied on HDR image og a stack of bracketed images

Explorer ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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Hello,

End of the message you can find a video of the problem.
3 similar issues that I will detailled.

Context:
I scan with my camera my 6x6 (120) negatives. For each image I shot with backeting. 5 images with 1EV difference (-2EV to +2EV). then I do a HDR merge with Lightroom Classic.

 

1) Issue 1 (1 min 26 to 4 min 00)

First I select my 5 bracketed images of my first negative (0:17 to 0:27)

Then I go to develop module

Sync with all settings checked is active (sorry I displayed the wimndow of settings but it was not captured by screen recording)

rgisg73707670_2-1637241576365.png

 

I crop the images (1:17 to 2:35)

I create stacking for all my images (2:35 to 2:50)

I select all stacks and I launch an HDR merge (3:05)

when the HDR merge is done for the first stack, we can notice that the HDR image has no cropping.

 

Conclusion HDR merge is not taking in account the cropping of source images.

 

rgisg73707670_0-1637240533350.png



2) Issue 2 (4 min 05 to 6:08)

In the second stack of 6 images (HDR included)

I select the 6 images

Then I go to develop module

Sync all settings is activated

I crop the HDR image

A cropping is applied to the 6 images but it's not the same between the HDR image and the 5 bracketed images member of the same stack.
There is like a zoom effect on the images that should be synchronized.

Conclusion when we crop a stack of images including an HDR merge of the others, the crop is not apply identicaly to all images (sync).

 

rgisg73707670_1-1637240811281.png

 

3) Issue 3 (6:10 to end)

Now I will crop the 5 bracketed images and copy past the develop settings to the HDR merge image.

 

So I select the third stack.

I expand the stack

I color label the HDR mege image.

I select the 5 other images of the stack.

I go to develop module

I crop the 5 images with Sync all settings activated.

I go back to Library module

I select the first image of the five (so the second of the stack)

I coppy the develop settings (sorry, popup and settings windows were not captured by the scree recording) [7:28 to 7:40]

Now I select the HDR image (the first of the stack) and I paste the settings [7:42 to 7:55]

We can see that a crop is applied to the HDR image but it's not the same than the original image from where I copy the develop settings.
The crop resizing seems good (no zooming, no proportion difference), but it looks like the HDR image is framed differently, it's like the image is shifted down, so there is more place up to the head.

Conclusion, Copy paste settings from an image to the HDR merge of this image is not applying correctly the cropping.

rgisg73707670_3-1637241783374.png

 

The full video, but start to be interesting at 1 min 26

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LEGEND ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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I did not read the entire thing. Your beginning brings up one issue. For Merge Photo, do not accomplish any modifications before the merge. Most mods will be ignored, some can damage the merge attempt. At best, you are wasting effort.

 

A point about HDR merge, when taking the bracket, change shutter, not aperture. No, I have no idea if you did this or not.

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Explorer ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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Hello,
Thanl you for your reply.

You should read all ;-), because the issue 2) and 3) are the result of searching another solution than what you were saying to not do.

But first, to reply to the question, aperture is fixed, shutter speed is changing to bracket.

 

Let say that I should not crop before doing hdr merge as you advice me.

Then we arrive to my 2 next issues discribed.

 

Because it was not working to have a correct cropped HDR merge from cropped sources, then I try do do differently.

My issue 2), I generate first the HDR merge and then I select the 6 images I crop them and the HDR image is not cropped like the other images

 

So I tried differently, I cropped the sources images, copy the settings and apply to the HDR merge image and again, the image is not cropped like for the sources.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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"My issue 2), I generate first the HDR merge and then I select the 6 images I crop them and the HDR image is not cropped like the other images."

To say the advice from @GoldingD in a different way-

The HDR image created is a new and independent image file. You can crop this HDR image as you want, but there is no need to also crop the "other (bracketed) images". (Unless you have some special purpose -not mentioned?)

 

1) Merge to HDR the 'original' bracketed images (NO editing or cropping required)

2) Crop the (ONE) HDR image.  (Leave the original bracketed images 'as original')

 

'Merge to HDR' does NOT recognise any cropping of the originals!

 

Regards. My System: Lr-Classic 11.0.1, Photoshop 23.0.2, Lightroom 5.0, Bridge 12.0, Windows-10.

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Explorer ,
Nov 19, 2021 Nov 19, 2021

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Hello Rob,

Thank you for your reply.
The HDR merge is not always a good result, so sometimes I finaly select one the original images that are more workable / editable for a good final result. Also I edit my self and also with a plugin named "Negativ Lab Pro" and this plugin require that the images are cropped (I can exclude a % for the calculation, but in my case it will be too much because I don't want to exclude on all side)

 

But the most important is not to know why I want to crop my original images but to determine if Lightroom Classic behave correctly or not.

In my point of view, the reply is "No"

 

If I have a stack of images, all with the same size and definition, they should be crop same if sync is activated.

And also, there is no reason why the crop result is different between crop with sync function activated (zoom effect) and crop by copy paste of the crop where now the proportion are identical but the frame is not well placed (shifted down)

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New Here ,
Nov 21, 2021 Nov 21, 2021

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Hi Rob

 

the workaround you mentioned to first do the HDR and then the transform tools do not work in my workflow. 

The workflow for me is that I do the crop and levelling, after this process I send the 2, 3 or more bracketing files for editing at a professional editing company.
They do the merge to a HDR and other editing stuff. Sometimes they do the HDR of all bracketing exposes, but sometimes only 2 exposes.

Therefore I can not do the HDR before the transform corrections.
Better solution is that LR fix the issue with the transform tools. It worked well in some earlier LR Version.
/Peter

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 18, 2021 Nov 18, 2021

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I'm going to agree with @Rob_Cullen (who is agrreing with @GoldingD  🙂 )

 

Merge your images first, without doing any adjustments (reducing noise on the originals is acceptable, but the merge operation will do this, too, so you really don't need it).

 

After the merge, you have a new, separate (and probably not exactly the same sized) image. Do all your work on that final product, including the crop. Leave the original images alone and untouched.

 

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Explorer ,
Nov 19, 2021 Nov 19, 2021

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Hello Michael,

Thank you for your message.
I will give the same reply to Rob without explanations on why I work like that.

Please don't take it negatively.

 

My message is not to ask how I should work or not, this is not the point.

My message is a bug notification, I try to help to improve the product, the question is only to determine if yes or no, Lightroom Classic behave has expected.

And my point of view, it's not. (For example, no reason that the copy/paste of develop settings is not giving same crop)


By the way, all images, HDR merge included have the same size, the difference is original are ARW files (Sony) and the HDR Merge is a DNG file.

rgisg73707670_0-1637317222795.png

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 19, 2021 Nov 19, 2021

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There is no bug here. Lightroom works as designed. The reason is that people often shoot handheld when taking brackets for HDR. That means that Lightroom must slightly crop the auto-aligned merged result, because the alignment of the brackets was not 100% perfect. And so it makes perfect sense to ignore any crop setting of the brackets.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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New Here ,
Nov 21, 2021 Nov 21, 2021

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There is definitely a bug with LR regarding transform tools with bracketing photos. Of cause the bracketing photos are exactly identically and used with a tripod. But LR do not transform them exactly with same result, and the HDR will then be blurred.  
The workaround and make the HDR file first and then the transform tools, do not fit in my workflow. 
thank you for understanding that we are aware of bracketing photos need to be taken with tripod, and photos are exactly the same before the transform tools, and accept there is a bug in LR 

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Explorer ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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Thank you Perter!
In my case, I use a reproduction stand, so yes, the images are identical 😉

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Explorer ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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Hello Johan,
Thank ou for your message, but I'm not sure that you understand the problem.
I could admit that for Ligthroom it's too complicated to take in account the crop during the HDR merge.

But my issues 2 and 3 are describing something totally different.

In issue 2 and 3, the HDR merge is already done. All the 6 images have the same size, the same proportion and same aspect. There is no reason that when I select the 6 images, "Sync with All settings" and the do a crop finally, one of the image is presented with a different crop result (issue 2)

Same, if I copy paste my crop, the target image should have same crop has the source image and in my issue, the proportions are correct but there is a shift/slide of the image verticaly.

Sorry, but it's buggy.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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I can't duplicate the cropping issue using my own HDR bracketed image sets. I suggest uploading one of your bracket sets that exhibits the issue to Dropbox or other file sharing site and we can take a look for cause of the issue.

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New Here ,
Nov 21, 2021 Nov 21, 2021

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I have exactly the same anoying issue with the transform tools and bracketing, that totally spoil my workflow as real estate photographer. 
/Peter

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 21, 2021 Nov 21, 2021

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I watched your video, but without audio I found it confusing as to what you were doing at the various steps. Regardless, I agree with the comments from the other people who replied. LrC Photo Merge HDR does not apply any settings to the image files during the HDR merge processing. This includes cropping applied to the bracketed image files. What will appear in the HDR DNG file are the settings applied to the most selected image file. So it's a futile effort to crop the individual bracketed image files before the HDR merge process.

 

Unfortunately, you have a bigger issue. In looking at the screen shots and video there are large film areas outside the actual picture frame that are pure white or black. Since LrC HDR merge uses the whole image frame when making its calculations the resulting HDR DNG output file will be less than optimal. The only workaround for the negatives already captured is to crop them inside LrC and export to TIFF file format. Then use the cropped TIFFs to recompute the bracketed image files in LrC Merge to HDR. Going forward I suggest during shooting crop the negative in-camera such that there are no areas (or very minimal area) visible outside the picture frame. Also level the image in-camera so it is oriented as you would like in the final HDR output file. If shooting with the camera on a tripod and the film holder well secured the bracket set image files should be well aligned to each other.

 

I do have considerable experience in the area of scannerless film capture. Glad to assist you further if needed.

https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film-photograp...

 

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Explorer ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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Hello Todd,
Thank you for your constructive message.

I should do 3 videos, but I tried to compensate by give the timecode.
I used the screen recording of windows and it was not the best, maybe I didn't know how to use it correctly.

 

rgisg73707670_0-1637603808204.png

 

What will appear in the HDR DNG file are the settings applied to the most selected image file. So it's a futile effort to crop the individual bracketed image files before the HDR merge process.

 

By @Todd Shaner

 

What do you mean by "most selected image file"?

In my case it's applied identically on all the selected images.

 

rgisg73707670_1-1637603808206.png

 

Unfortunately, you have a bigger issue. In looking at the screen shots and video there are large film areas outside the actual picture frame that are pure white or black. Since LrC HDR merge uses the whole image frame when making its calculations the resulting HDR DNG output file will be less than optimal.


By @Todd Shaner

So, this is a good argument to promote the fact that HDR Merge should take in account the crop. It will respect the user choice and also it will save time in calculation 😉

 

rgisg73707670_2-1637603808206.png

 

The only workaround for the negatives already captured is to crop them inside LrC and export to TIFF file format. Then use the cropped TIFFs to recompute the bracketed image files in LrC Merge to HDR.


By @Todd Shaner

 

Thank you for the workaround 🙂 I will definitively try it.

(negative point, it will increase again the size of data to store 😞 )

 

rgisg73707670_3-1637603808206.png

 

Going forward I suggest during shooting crop the negative in-camera such that there are no areas (or very minimal area) visible outside the picture frame. Also level the image in-camera so it is oriented as you would like in the final HDR output file. If shooting with the camera on a tripod and the film holder well secured the bracket set image files should be well aligned to each other.

 

By @Todd Shaner

 

I will take a look at crop in Camera. I don't know how to do it in my Sony A7RIV. when I scan a 24x36, I try to use the full captor, but when it's a 6x6, yes, I have a lot not used, but starting with 61M pixels it was not a big deal for me.

Regarding my film holder, sometimes he moves a bit between 2 negatives and I have to readjust. But for a same negative, there is no move. I use a copy stand and Essential Film Holder. I can ensure that the Holder will not move, between 2 negative, but when I slide the negative inside to the next one, it's difficult to place it exactly like the preceent one, so cropping in the camera can be a problem where I will lose lot of time

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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"What do you mean by "most selected image file"? In my case it's applied identically on all the selected images."

 

When multiple image files are selected there is always one in the filmstrip that is brighter (white). When syncing edits the settings in the most selected file are applied to the other (lesser selected) files.

 

"So, this is a good argument to promote the fact that HDR Merge should take in account the crop. It will respect the user choice and also it will save time in calculation."

 

As already mentioned by numerous people LrC HDR Merge does not apply any Develop settings to the bracketed image files during the merge process. It's very unlikley Adobe will change this behavior. As mentione what does happen is that the Develop settings in the most selected image file are applied to the HDR Merge DNG ouput file.

 

"Regarding my film holder, sometimes he moves a bit between 2 negatives and I have to readjust. But for a same negative, there is no move."

 

A small amount of alignment difference between negative frames shoould not be a problem when 'Auto Align' is checked in the HDR Merge control settings. You just want to keep the area visible in-camera that is outside the picture frame as small as possible. You can test the imapct this may have on the HDR output DNG file by comparing a current HDR DNG file created with the ARW file set that has a large area outside the picture frame. Compare it to an HDR DNG file created using cropped TIFF files that have the area outside the picture frame removed. There may not be much difference, but this is a good test to confirm if that is the case.

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 22, 2021 Nov 22, 2021

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The official Adobe name for the 'most selected image' is the 'active image'. This is the image that will show in the develop module when you switch to that, for example. When you synchronise settings, this is the images where the settings are taken from, and the other images are the ones where the settings are applied to.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Explorer ,
Nov 24, 2021 Nov 24, 2021

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quote

The official Adobe name for the 'most selected image' is the 'active image'. This is the image that will show in the develop module when you switch to that, for example. When you synchronise settings, this is the images where the settings are taken from, and the other images are the ones where the settings are applied to.

 


By @JohanElzenga

 

Thank you Johan, I understand now 🙂

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Explorer ,
Nov 24, 2021 Nov 24, 2021

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quote

 

I do have considerable experience in the area of scannerless film capture. Glad to assist you further if needed.

https://luminous-landscape.com/scannerless-digital-capture-and-processing-of-negative-film-photograp...

 


By @Todd Shaner

 

Thank you for all your reponses.
I will contact you later , maybe you can help me regarding develop a "DSLR Scan" of a Slide originaly developped in Cross Processing (C41 at the place of C6).
For now, I'm unable to get same result of what I got when I developped on Paper with my Chromega D5XL Enlarger

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 24, 2021 Nov 24, 2021

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LATEST

Send me a PM and I'll try to help you. At the article link I provided Mark Segal and I discuss scanerless film capture using a DSLR camera. Mark uses MakeTIFF and SilverFast HDR and I use LrC and PS. Here's a Dropbox link to the article PDFs and assets for testing.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5pnzbesvqen1hv/AABZyaWAn33jCwEinkT45iFAa?dl=0

 

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