Did I Accidentally Double Sharpen My Photos After Reimporting?

[SRPcashie]

HI Everyone,

I have a dumb question.  

I had some files on a drive on a laptop that I imported into my temporary laptop LR catalog while I was away on a shoot just to see them.  I have all my LR catalogs to do some sharpening and lens profile adjustment on import.  

When I got home I grabbed the same files that had been imported on that drive and copied them to my home hard drive.  Then I imported them into my home hard drive LR catalog which is also set up to do sharpening.   

Did I just double sharpen my files?  Or if I look at the slider should that amount of sharpening include 'all' of the sharpening that has been done to the files?  

If I had done anything else to those files, would those adjustments have come over as well?  

I've done quite a bit of work to these and would hate to have to start over but I do have all the original cards.  

Thanks!

Thanks!

Mac Sequoia 15.5

LR 14.3.1

PS 26.7.0

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

Are your files RAW?

[SRPcashie]

yes. But they had xmp sidecar files in the same folder because now I always see xmp files whereas before I didn't.

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

Ok, if you also copied the XMP files with your RAW files, when you Imported them into your main catalog, all the edits you had done will be read in from the XMP files. There will be no double sharpening; LrC can't do that to RAW files.

[SRPcashie]

So those edits in those xmp files can't be undone?  I mean other things besides sharpening.  

and the sharpening slider in the main catalog is all of the sharpening there is?

[SRPcashie]

I'm on a chat with an adobe agent and he is telling me I double sharpened my files.  Is he wrong?

[Conrad_C · Accepted solution]

They’re wrong.

Lightroom Classic edits are stored separately from the original data, especially if the original is a raw file. The only way edits are permanently applied is when you export a copy.

By default, Lightroom Classic edits are stored in a catalog. But a single image can be referenced from multiple catalogs, like your laptop and home catalogs, so now you have to understand what happens in that case.

Edits aren’t cumulative across catalogs. So you won’t get double sharpening from applying sharpening in two catalogs. What can happen, depending on what you do, is that an image’s sharpening value in a catalog can be replaced (not added to) from another catalog or an XMP file. In other words, you can get edit conflicts between catalogs and XMP files.

When you view an image file in catalog A, you see the edits catalog A stores for that image.

When you view the same image in catalog B, you see the edits catalog B stores for that image.

The image file itself is unchanged, because the edits are in each catalog, not in the image.

Therefore, you don’t have double sharpening, because both catalogs are not permanently applying anything to the image itself and not interacting with other catalogs.

Now suppose you’re also using XMP files. Lightroom Classic replaces image edits in the current catalog with edits from XMP files only when one of these two things happens:

• You import an image that has an XMP file. 
• You select the image in a catalog and choose the Read Metadata From File command. 

Either of those replaces the edits in the catalog.

OK, so what happens if you have two catalogs referencing the same image AND there is also an xmp file for that image?

When you view an image file in catalog A, you see the edits catalog A stores for that image.

When you view the same image in catalog B, you see the edits catalog B stores for that image.

After import, the XMP files don’t affect any catalogs unless you manually read them into a catalog.

If you select an image in catalog A and use the Read Metadata From File command, then the edits in the XMP file replace the edits in catalog A but not in catalog B, only in the open catalog.

If you select an image in catalog A and use the Save Metadata To File command (or if Automatically Write Changes Into XMP is enabled), then the edits in Catalog A replace the edits in the XMP file, but not in catalog B unless you also open catalog B and use the Read Metadata From File command to replace its edits with the ones in the XMP files.

If you want the same edits to be in both catalog A and B, you could have one catalog write its edits to XMP and then have the other catalog read from that same XMP files. But it can be better to instead use the Import From Another Catalog command, because although XMP files can store Develop module edits, XMP files don’t store catalog-level edits like which collections, slide shows, and print jobs it belongs to. But none of this is automatic, moving edits across catalogs is always something you have to do manually.

As long as you pay attention to which direction you’re reading and writing the metadata, you can control which way the edits flow.

And it’s a good skill to master, because if you do, you’ll understand exactly how to move image edits not only between catalogs and XMP files, but also how to use XMP files to transfer Lightroom Classic edits to and from any other apps that read XMP files, such as Adobe Bridge, Adobe Camera Raw, Adobe After Effects, and non-Adobe software like LRTimelapse.

[SRPcashie]

I'm going to have to read through this again tomorrow more carefully, BUT you are saying those xmp files that came along from the temporary catalog were replaced by new ones when I imported them into the permanant catalog?  And therefore none of the initial edits came along with them?

I never break from my workflow so when I want edits to come along somewhere else I always import from catalog.  

[SRPcashie]

I just wonder why the adobe chat agent and the adobe agent I spoke to on the phone both told me the complete opposite.  As a result I did all that work over again anyhow.  

[drtonyb]

Yes, that is wrong.

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

In addition to what @Conrad_C has written, if you Import or read into a catalog using XMP files for your edits, you will not get any History. If you use Import from Another Catalog, not only are the edits imported, so is the History.

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

You will need to detail your workflow in this sitution where you are using a temporary catalog.

It seems from what you last said, you use the menu option File > Import from Another Catalog...

Is that correct?

[SRPcashie]

Ok, so here's what I did.

Download raws to portable drive into a folder.  

Import files in folder into temp LR catalog on laptop where a sharpening preset was applied amoung other edits.  (then the xmp files appeared)

Then I copied those raws (and I thought the xmp files) from the temp drive onto the permanent hard drive.

Then I imported (with sharpening preset) that same folder into my permanent LR catalog on my permanent hard drive. 

does that make sense?

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

Yes, that makes sense.

If you had copied the xmp files along with the RAW files to your main computer, then when Imported, the edits (including sharpening done on the laptop) will be read from the XMP files and applied to your newly imported photos.

You should be able to open LrC on your laptop and see that the photos in the temporoary catalog have the same edits as they do on your main computer.

If you didn't copy the xmp files with your RAW files, then Importing will not have your edits; only the sharpening preset will be applied.

[richardplondon]

Say a certain setting was applied onto a proprietary Raw within Catalog A (say '40' for sharpening, along with other stuff). Makes no difference whether this happened through a preset or by moving sliders around manually. And this was all written out to an XMP sidecar file alongside the Raw, by Catalog A.  Then the Raw file is newly imported into Catalog B. Catalog B notices the XMP alongside and loads up those same settings as a starting point. You may have chosen some default import settings (a preset) to be automatically used whenever no prior adjustments are found - that will not apply in this case since there are prior adjustments found - because of the XMP.

All of this is then overridden by any preset you actively choose to be applied during import - noting the end result is no different, than if you later apply a preset after import or if you make the same changes manually.

Let's say your further preset happening on top of the imported prior adjustments, sets sharpening strength '35' but nothing else. The end result will be the other adjustments remaining as they were, but the sharpeniing strength that was previously '40' is now '35'. 

Rather than double-applying, or being cumulative, it makes more sense to think of the Raw conversion parameters being sequentially changed around to different values. However they were all last left, is what governs the appearance of the Raw file as it is currently (provisionally, dynamically) previewed. Sharpening can be reduced as well as increased because it has not actually happened yet. You are just varying what it will be when it eventually does get implemented for real - either at export / print, or when settings are hard written into a new separate file for external editing.

[SRPcashie]

So in this case the sharpening done at the first import in the temporary catalog is overwritten by the sharpening done in the second import, and there is no double sharpening.  Is that correct?

Can I ask if any other edits would that would have been done, such as temperature change or cropping, where there wasn't a replacement edit at the second import, would have remained?

[SRPcashie]

So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying that there was double sharpening done?  I'm completely confused. 

[drtonyb]

@SRPcashie 

You are not reading correctly. There is no double sharpening; there is no double anything.

LrC never alters the RAW files. No matter what editing you do in LrC, RAW files are never changed; they are exactly the same as when they were created in the camera.

Edits are stored in the catalog like a set of instructions. Some users have the option "Automatically write changes to XMP" enabled in their Catalog Settings, so for these users the same edits are also saved in XMP files.

If RAW files are subsequently Imported into a new catalog, or a catalog in which they haven't already been imported, there will be no edits for them in the new catalog; if the RAW files do have their XMP files, then LrC reads the edits from the XMP files into the catalog, thereby restoring edits that had been previously saved in the XMP files.

No doubling of any edit settings.

You asked:

"Can I ask if any other edits would that would have been done, such as temperature change or cropping, where there wasn't a replacement edit at the second import, would have remained?"

The simple answer is No.

Reading settings from an XMP file replaces ALL the edit settings; so if you had Exposure +0.50 for a photo in LrC and had saved an XMP when the same photo had the default Exposure 0.00, after reading from the XMP, the Exposure will be set to 0.00. The XMP stores all the edit settings for a photo, whether they had been changed from their default or not, and on reading back into LrC, will overwrite all the edit settings that might currently exist for the photo.