Filtering by treatment to show B&W images finds only some B&W

[p.ewing16]

I have many B&W images, all as virtual copies and have found the both filtering by treatment and as a smart collection on this same setting only finds some of my B&Ws.  I've checked several of those missing in the filtered group, and are all set in Develop to Black and White, profile Adobe Monochrome.

For one of the missing B&W virtual copies, I made a new virtual copy, and this was missing too in the filtering.  So I took it into Develop made one change - Treatment to Color then back to B&W.  This new image was now 'found' in the filtered group. Any ideas on how I can fix this nasty issue please?

Using Lightroom Classic v11.2 under Windows 10.

[john beardsworth]

Try deleting the Helper.lrdata file in the LR catalogue's folder. LR will rebuild this next time.

[p.ewing16]

Thanks for your suggestion John.  However doing that has not cured the problem.

[john beardsworth]

What about doing a File > Optimize Catalog?

[p.ewing16]

Optimize Catalog made no improvement either thanks John.

[john beardsworth]

Can you repeat this in a new catalogue?

Also, might another filter be to blame? Using the Shift key, click the Library Filter - the grey space between : and Text|Attribute....

[p.ewing16]

Filtering works as expected for images and virtual copies converted to B&W in a new catalogue - I imported a range of images that included problem ones in my main catalogue.

I explored the Library Filter settings very thoroughly and can't see any other filters being applied.

I've also noticed that these problem images (ie not filtered as B&W) when brought back into Develop where they shows as having Treatment set to B&W also have the HSL/Color menu available instead of the B & W menu for adjusting colors - ie Develop still thinks they are Colored too.  But as I mentioned at the top, if I cycle back to Color then to B&W Treatment in Develop, then this fixes the problem. Thanks John.

[richardplondon]

I can't explain how the Treatment could be showing as B&W if the full HSL panel is visible. In a true B&W treatment the HSL sliders would get replaced by B&W Mix sliders. So perhaps this is a glitch in upconversion from an earlier Lr Catalog - and/or image Process Version?

It does really depend on how exactly a particular image has been given its B&W appearance - for example, by a preset. In my own usual practice the HSL panel remains active for all my B&W processed images. That's because I will have used the HSL panel to desaturate all their hues - not B&W treatment. So they continue with a full-colour camera profile. So these don't filter as B&W images - so far as the Catalog can tell, they are not.

To filter them AS black and white, I would need to rely on keywording (or some such method)!

[p.ewing16]

Thanks Richard - I never used presets for my B&W.  Yes if I was to use some other 'color' method to go to B&W a metadata setting change would be needed.

[john beardsworth]

I've also noticed that these problem images (ie not filtered as B&W) when brought back into Develop where they shows as having Treatment set to B&W also have the HSL/Color menu available instead of the B & W menu for adjusting colors.

To me that implies that they were made black and white by a voodoo method like reducing Saturation in the Basic or HSL panels. You've not done that though, have you? I'd suggest fixing it for now by taking those images by toggling the Color/B&W setting as you've done before, and then seeing it the problem recurs.

[p.ewing16]

Thanks John. Will need to do that very painful manual search and change! And maybe add a keyword incase of future corruption too.

This is surely a bug - should I re-submit it or might it be picked up from this post by Adobe?

[richardplondon]

I don't see how LrC is going to reliably judge images as B&W, except when that particular mode has been used.

Certainly not by how much saturated colour they contain (the second one below, is B&W)

[p.ewing16]

But that is not the bug I am highlighting which is this: the Library Filter called Treatment is supposed to filter a subset of images that have the Develop module setting of Treatment, which can be either Color or Black & White.  Nothing to do with other methods to create a monochrome effect.

[richardplondon]

I do realise what the Filter should be doing, but the fact that the HSL panel is showing in full (and not changing to the B&W Mix panel) suggests that your Catalog is currently not considering or treating these images as being fully in B&W mode. That is of a piece IMO, with the observed situation with the B&W filtering.

So it is surely a relevant troubleshooting query to seek details of the specific steps leading to this, something for which at this moment we have only guesswork. There are several alternative ways to put an image into a B&W appearance and we don't know as yet which of those had been used, even whether always the same or sometimes different. Apart from, that it wasn't via a preset (although if it had been, we'd still have had to know which specific B&W method the preset was implementing).

[p.ewing16]

My apologies Richard - I should have given more details: my B&W workflow is very simple and has not changed for about 5 years since starting to use LR for my B&W work rather than 5x4 film: virtual copy, reset (incase any colour settings were made to the master image), treatment to B&W, then routine tone curve, tone, etc adjustments. 

[richardplondon]

Thanks for details: in my opinion, a corruption of the Catalog contents is confirmed in that case. I had wonderred if upgrade of parameters from earlier process version may have been partial but if the images now show both Monochrome profile and B&W treatment then, on reconsideration, that would suggest otherwise.

I have found Export as Catalog does clean such things up. AFAIK any images that are found not possible to validate with proper processing info, would get omitted from that new library. I agree about un-checking the 'negatives' and just have the new Catalog share in the usage of the same current source files.

Obviously due care then needed over external metadata etc, also as to which Catalog is nominated to be the one that syncs with Cloud. I don't know whether renaming the current one out of the way, then renaming the exported one identically to that, might "trick" LrC and CC into continuing with that. Perhaps worth a try, to ideally limit impact. The remaining big inconvenience may then be: Publish.

[john beardsworth]

Another thing to try is selecting all photos, then doing a File > Export as Catalog. I'd suggest unchecking the previews and negatives choices. Open that catalogue and see if the problem persists.

If not, you might continue using this catalogue instead of your existing one. The main thing you might lose is anything in Published Services, but internal database indices would be reset.

A long shot might be to reset LR's preferences. I say long shot because I have seen it clear weird problems on Mac, but it tends to be suggested as a cure-all and you are on Windows anyway. The easy way is to close LR and then go to C:\Users\YOU\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom\Preferences and move the files onto your desktop (so you can move them back if it doesn't work). Restart LR by double clicking your catalogue and see if the problem is gone. I doubt it will be.

[p.ewing16]

I've tried many things including your suggestions thanks John, but nothing fixed the issue.  I worked out a way to  filter all of the problem images together with only a few colour ones, and then did the manual fix I mentioned above on each image in Develop - only took a couple of hours in the end.  I've added a "B&W" keyword to each B&W just incase it happens again, so I'll only have recent ones to fix if I forget to add the keyword - I should do a preset of my B&W workflow I think!