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Grain/lines/spots added to an image after exporting

Community Beginner ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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Hi All

 

I hope someone can help me.

 

I have been using Lightroom Classic for a few months now and have come across an issue today that I haven't experienced before.

 

I edit an image then export (as usual), when I open the exported image there is added Grain/lines/spots added to the sky on this particular image. These are not present within lightroom.

(The sky in the image looks like it's been printed when low on ink)

 

I have exported to every single file format and I have tried each colour space without success.

 

I have attached a screenshot of both inside Lightroom and the exported image.

This is a 35mm film photo so it is naturally grainy anyway, but this is more than just grain.

 

Thank you in advance!

 

Regards

 

CraigLightroom.jpgExport.jpg

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LEGEND ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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In your screenshots. the one that is in LrC. Is that the exported image in LrC or the original in LrC?

 

Second up, the second screenshot, what is that views in?

 

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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The photo in Lightroom is the imported and edited photo, before the export.



Best Regards


Craig Wilson

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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The images you posted are too small for troubleshooting. Please post screenshots at 100% view of both images.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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Hopefully these images are better.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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I have edited 5 different images and they have all been exported with the sky like this. 

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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Please post a screenshot of the Export dialog with the setting you used, make sure that File settings, Image sizing and Output sharpening are visible and expanded.

Also please do not attach the screenshot, insert it directly into your post like you did initially.

I have inserted your 100% screenshots below for reference.

 

 

image.png

 

image.png

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LEGEND ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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One issue yet to be clarified concerns your display of the exported image. When you took that screenshot, what image viewer was that in. It does not appear to be LrC.

 

Also, in that scennshot, it looks like your export is/was a TIFF file? Correct?

 

In addition to seeing your export dialog settings, it would also be perhaps helpful to see a screenshot of that exported image IN LrC. Not sure about the viewer you are using and how it reads the TIFF file.

 

 

/update/ Ok, MS Photos, I never ever use that, but went looking based on how that app looked in your screenshot.

So your export looks like crud in the sky when viewed in MS Photos, how about when viewed in LrC? (In Develop)

Now, I think MS Photos is color corrected, so what about your monitor profile? And what color space was that export to?

 

see:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/colours-not-matching-photoshop-vs-pho...

 

 

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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The Photos app has no problems displaying tiff files, as far as I can tell. (I don't use it either)

And I don't think this has anything to do with color space or color management/monitor profile.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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Thanks again for the help.

 

Below are the current Export settings and a different photo where the spots can be seen more clearly. 

All images were originally scanned as tiff files.

I have also tried different dpi and bit depth settings. spots.png

 

export settings.pngExport settings 2.png

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Community Expert ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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There is nothing in your export settings that could cause the issues that you're having.

With these settings, the exported image should be identical to the original.

Note that the PPI value does not change the image in any way, the pixel dimensions are unchanged.

PPI is used by printer drivers to calculate physical dimensions. Pixel dimensions divided by PPI = Printed dimensions in inches.

What happens if you view the exported image in a different image viewer, or if you import it back to Lightroom?

Still the same issue?

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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Hi Per,

Once the image is imported back into lightroom the file is displayed with the imperfections.

This is also the same if I open the file in PS.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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If you don't mind sharing a DNG exported from an original (like the one with the boat), I could take a look at it.

A DNG will contain your edit history and edits, which might help with the troubleshooting.

You should be able to attach the file here, as long as it is smaller than 47 MB.

 

LR-export-dng.png

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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The DNG file is 347MB so unfortunately I can't upload it.

Below are my LR edit, hopefully these will help.

I've noticed that reducing the sharpness does help a little but not much.

 

 

edits 1.pngedits 2.pngedits 3.png

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LEGEND ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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That is a huge amount of sharpening. Lots of contrast will have been introduced. Could be conflated as grain or noise. If you want to sharpen the areas that are not the sky, best to do so (especially if that aggressive) in a mask that excludes the sky. Sharpening sky is asking for trouble.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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That image looks like it was shot from inside a room looking thru an opening/windows with a screen in the way. Or could that me a Moiré pattern? Hmm, probably a different distortion (but I do not know the terminology )

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Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2024 Jan 02, 2024

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"This is a 35mm film photo so it is naturally grainy anyway"

So it must have been scanned.

I would suggest the image is showing JPG artifacts (not grain), possibly caused by the scanner .

The 'blotchiness' and 'spots' are visible all over the image (in your Lightroom clip) when magnified greatly.

Sorry- should not be looking at a possted screen-clip. Only the original 'scan' will reveal if the scanner is the problem.

2024-01-03 09_49_23-Re_ Grain_lines_spots added to an image after expo... - Adobe Community - 143307.jpg

 

Regards. My System: Lightroom-Classic 13.2 Photoshop 25.5, ACR 16.2, Lightroom 7.2, Lr-iOS 9.0.1, Bridge 14.0.2, Windows-11.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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Here is a hint for the Sharpening-

Hold down the [ALT] key and move the Masking slider to the right. This will limit sharpening to only the areas you visualize in white. Black areas (eg. the sky) are not sharpened.

2024-01-04 09_59_21-Roberts Catalog-v13 - Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Classic - Develop.jpg

 

Regards. My System: Lightroom-Classic 13.2 Photoshop 25.5, ACR 16.2, Lightroom 7.2, Lr-iOS 9.0.1, Bridge 14.0.2, Windows-11.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 03, 2024 Jan 03, 2024

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Thanks Rob, that's a great tip.

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Community Expert ,
Jan 04, 2024 Jan 04, 2024

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You have been given  good advice by @Rob_Cullen and @GoldingD , but we still haven't figured out the issue with exported files. If you could share the DNG file on Dropbox or some other file sharing service and post a link here, I'd be happy to examine it.

I have done a lot of film scanning, and might also have some additional advice on workflow and editing.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 04, 2024 Jan 04, 2024

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I appreciate all the help that has been given here.

A link to the DNG file from my google drive is below.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C_dYAVB_-0I7Axp7_kDqknKSt74fiHvi/view?usp=drive_link

 

I will be testing out DSLR scanning in the next few days and comparing the results alongside my film scanning.

I would love any workflow advice!

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LEGEND ,
Jan 04, 2024 Jan 04, 2024

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1. When you placed that photo on/in your scanner, was the original media, the photo, that grainy? Or is the grain/noise a result of scan settings? In the software to run the scanner, are their settings for sharpening, or noise, or contrast? Especially sharpening, some people just love to sharpen when they should not (as at the beginning of post processing instead of the end)

 

Note that an initial step when looking at your example in LrC was to reset all the settings, and zero them out. Just to make sure no develop mod was causing the noise/grain, and nope. So the above inquiry.

 

2. The scan software, what is it? I notice that the DNG is not a full DNG in terms of behaving in LrC. For example Profile in Basic Panel acts much like a raster image. This is probably not surprising.

 

3. Ok the example as is in LrC. I used the same file settings in an export. This on the DNG as you posted at DropBox (with the settings as you accomplished) The result I got when looking at the exported image in LrC, does not have that odd issue. Actually when viewed in LrC I do not see the issue, but the screen capture does show some of it

 

2.png

 Above image a screen capture in LrC Develop Module using PicPick to capture.

 

 

 

HOWEVER

When I look at that image using MS Windows Photo Viewer, I do see the issue pop up, and more obvious than the previous screen capture.

3.png

 

Above image a screen capture in MS Windows Photo Viewer using PicPick to capture.

 

So a summary as i see it. When looking at the image in LrC the export looks much as one would expect, very much like the original post process, the grain/noise seen is as brought over from the original that has a lot existing as it is a scan. But once viewed outside of LrC in a viewer it looks bad, and depending on what viewer and how that viewer works, the results can be worse.

 

 

note, I also tried changing the export color space from Adobe RGB to sRGB IEC61966-2.1, no difference. And export as JPEG instead of TIFF, no difference.

 

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Jan 04, 2024 Jan 04, 2024

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The first thing that strikes me is that the image is grossly oversharpened, even without your edits.

It may not be apparent in Fit view, but becomes very obvious at 100% view.

Always evaluate sharpness and noise at 100%, and always apply sharpening and noise reduction at 100%.

This is the only view that shows you a true rendering of the image – one image pixel is represented by one screen pixel.

Any other view will be inaccurate and misleading because the image has been scaled.

If you have a 4k or higher resolution monitor, view at 200%. The pixels on these monitors are so small that it's hard to see detail properly at 100%.

 

It appears that you have applied sharpening in the scanning software, which is not recommended, it ruins the image.

The problem here is not only oversharpening, but that everything is sharpened.

Scan with sharpening turned off, then use LrC's excellent sharpening tools. Using masking will protect the sky and and other flat areas from sharpening. You may need to use a high masking value, in the 70-90 range.

A low Radius setting like 0.5 will help to prevent sharpening artifacts, as well as an Amount value of less than 50.

 

Sharpening film scans (especially from 35mm) can be tricky and sometimes impossible.

It very often makes the image look worse whatever you do, and in those cases it's better to not sharpen at all.

I have had some success using the Output sharpener in the PhotoKit sharpener (which is a plugin for Photoshop) for printing.

You can also try the Output sharpening in LrC when exporting.

 

I suspect that you're using the Plustek OpticFilm 7400 film scanner.

I have no experience with it, but this film scanner review site, which I find trustworthy – https://www.filmscanner.info/en/PlustekOpticFilm7400.html – suggests that the true resolution of this scanner is 3800 ppi, but that you have to scan at 7200 ppi, and then downsample the file to 3800 to get the best resolution.

If you downsample in Photoshop (recommended), do not use Bicubic sharper as the resampling method. Bicubic, or even Bicubic smoother is a better choice. Then you can import the image in LrC, and will have less noise to deal with.

 

The grid pattern in the sky is not visible in the DNG, and not in exported files either.

This is a mystery, and the only troubleshooting I can think of is to try to reset the LrC preferences. It may not work, but it's worth a try.  https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/help/setting-preferences-lightroom.html

 

image.png

 

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 04, 2024 Jan 04, 2024

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Thanks again to all that have helped me.

 

The scanning software is Silverfast and I don't apply any sharpening at the scanning stage, as this has only appeared on this one film reel for a camera test that I've only used this once, maybe sharpening was turned on during the scan without my knowledge.

 

I didn't previously know about the sharpening masking so I will use this feature going forward.

 

I will probably end up re-scanning this roll and start the edit again 

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