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Zeiss lensinfo not present with Canon R6, but present with Canon 6D

Community Beginner ,
Nov 29, 2022 Nov 29, 2022

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Hi all,

 

Ever since I got my Canon R6, Flickr won't display lens information in case 3rd party lenses (in this case Zeiss) are attached. I see this:

R6_Zeiss-135-apo-sonnar-Flickr.PNG
while I see this on Flickr when the picture was taken with a Canon 6D:

6D_Zeiss-135-apo-sonnar-Flickr.PNG

Flickr only shows what is present in the file, so I checked Lightroom, and I see that in case of 3rd party lenses (in this case a 135 apo sonnar) that no lensmaker info is shown in Lightroom, only the focal length on the R6:

R6_Zeiss-135-apo-sonnar-OK.PNG

In case of a picture taken with the 6D, I do see the lensinformation with all my Zeiss lenses:

6D_Zeiss-135-apo-sonnar-OK.PNG

When I attach Canon lenses (16-35, 70-200, 100-400 etc) to the R6, it works fine:
Flickr:

R6_EF-100-400-II-Flickr.PNG

Lightroom:

R6_EF-100-400-II-OK-LR.PNG

So I don't think creating a ticket at Flickr makes sense, since it is already missing in the Lightroom library.

After that, I thought it was Adobe reading the wrong metadata fields from the camera, but I have been using LR for ages, and it doesn't matter which version of LR I use (of course I always keep it up to date), because I don't have this problem when using the 6D.

 

So the camera seems the only common denominator. I use firmware 1.4.0 on the R6 due to the AF-issues in later versions (hesitant to try 1.6.0). My guess is that Canon does not fill the proper metadata fields in-camera in case of 3rd party lenses. It works perfectly fine when a Canon lens is attached, so the camera does fill metadata fields.

At least the following 2 threads confirm what I have:

Topic 1

Topic 2

and both say it is a Canon bug....With the way Canon is keeping everything close to the chest nowadays, "forbidding" 3rd party lensmakers to use the RF-mount, I would not be surprised if Canon decided not to fill the lensmaker-details in the correct metadata fields in-camera in case the lens is non-Canon....But of course that is speculation...

 

I've contacted Canon CPS and they say they fill in the lensinformation fields exactly the same way on mirrorless bodies as on DSLR's. They say "EXIF is difficult and we cannot solve this" and they use Canon DPP as "bible" for my issue and they say "if it is not shown in DPP, then we cannot solve it".

In DPP4 it even does not show Zeiss lensinfo with the 6D, while in Lightroom or Flickr it does show Zeiss lensinfo...

DPP4.16.png

Left: 6D + Zeiss 135 apo sonnar (on Flickr and Lightroom show the correct lensinfo)
Middle: R6 + 135 apo sonnar
Right: R6 + EF-100-400 II

 

I created 4 shots:

1: IMG.3306.CR3: R6 + Zeiss 135 apo sonnar
2: IMG.3307.CR3: R6 + Canon 70-200
3: IMG.3309.CR2: 6D + Zeiss 135 apo sonnar
4: IMG.3308.CR2: 6D + Canon 70-200

See below:DPP4-EXIF-info.jpg

 

I can conclude the following:

- In Lightroom, the lensinfo shows correctly for the following combos: 6D+canon, 6D+Zeiss, R6+canon
- In DPP 4.16, the lensinfo shows correctly for the following combos: 6D+canon, R6+canon
- On Flickr, the lensinfo shows correctly for the following combos: 6D+canon, 6D+Zeiss, R6+canon

At least Lightroom is aligned with Flickr.

 

I also checked what I see in-camera (in case of the R6, because the 6D does not show lensinfo when playbacking images).
R6 + Zeiss 135 apo sonnar:

IMG_20221125_131355.jpg

 

R6 + Canon 70-200:

IMG_20221125_131345.jpg

I've created a topic on the Canon forums and found out that the program Darktable is using EXIV2 (github) for lens identification and there are several tags indicating the correct lensinfo, in this case LensType nr. 33 (33, "Carl Zeiss Apo-Sonnar T* 135mm f/2 ZE") but it is not used by Canon.

Here you see the different tags of my RAW file:
EXIV2.PNG

If I was using Darktable, I could manipulate it by a separate .ini file to read out the correct lens identification on tag nr 33.

I don't know if Adobe Lightroom makes use of EXIV2, but in case of the Canon 6D, adobe can read the lens identification correctly as shown in my examples.

 

Can adobe check the readouts for the correct tags, because it seems Flickr points to Adobe and Canon indicates they will not solve this, so Adobe seems the only party left to fix it....

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LEGEND ,
Nov 29, 2022 Nov 29, 2022

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In the Metadata panel's Lens field, LR displays whatever the camera has written into the industry standard EXIF:LensModel metadata field (e.g. EF17-40mm f/4L USM), and if that is empty, the EXIF:LensInfo field (e.g. 17-40mm f/0).  Contrary to what Canon support told you, writing EXIF metadata is not "difficult" and hundreds of cameras do it correctly. (You generally have to take what any big company's support tells you with three grains of salt -- they're not trustworthy.)

 

If you upload a sample pic to Dropbox, Google Drive, or similar and post the sharing link here, I'll put it under the microscope and authoritatively confirm what's in the metadata and how LR is treating it.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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i've replied to your message twice, but it keeps dissappearing from the forum (marked as spam?)

I've uploaded the 4 RAW files (straight from memory card) for you:

https://easyupload.io/m/ghk0ix

pass = lensexif

 

I hope you have some insights. I've executed exif tool and looked at the EXIF-tags and I see:

EXIFTool-EXIF-fields.png

 

When I check the MakersNotes and Composite, I see multiple tags:
- Lens Type (2 occurences)
- Lens Info

- Lens Model (2 occurences)

- Lens ID


R6 + Zeiss (_MG_3306.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 33 (twice)
  • Lens Info: 135 135 0 0
  • Lens Model: not filled in (twice)
  • Lens ID: 33

 

6D + Zeiss (_MG_3309.CR2):

  • Lens Type: 33, 0
  • Lens Info: 135 135 0 0
  • Lens Model: 135mm (twice)
  • Lens ID: 33

 

R6 + Canon 70-200 (_MG_3307.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 251 (twice)
  • Lens Info: 70 200 0 0
  • Lens Model: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (twice)
  • Lens ID: 251

 

6D + Canon 70-200 (_MG_3308.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 251, 0
  • Lens Info: 70 200 0 0
  • Lens Model: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (twice)
  • Lens ID: 251

 

The case that is most curious is that of 6D + Zeiss (_IMG_3309.CR2), because that one shows the correct lensidentification in both Lightroom and Flickr while the Lens Model-tags in EXIFTOOL does not indicate that it is Zeiss 135 APO SONNAR....

 

I have this data, but I don't know what further to conclude...

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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"i've replied to your message twice, but it keeps dissappearing from the forum"

 

The third-party forum platform Adobe uses (Khorus) is mediocre at best, and there's a constant stream of such issues.  They've been reported to Adobe, which reports them to Khorus, which acts on them very, very slowly.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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It is getting difficult to post: all my replies are seen as spam or something and I don't know why. They keep dissapearing...I've sent you a private message.

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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Hi John

 

I've replied to your message multiple times, but it keeps dissappearing from the forum.

I've uploaded the 4 RAW files (straight from memory card) for you. See private message containing the link to the RAW files, since it gets marked as spam 😞

 

I hope you have some insights. I've executed exif tool and looked at the EXIF-tags and I see:

Deathchant_1-1669815641986.png

 

When I check the MakersNotes and Composite, I see multiple tags:
- Lens Type (2 occurences)
- Lens Info

- Lens Model (2 occurences)

- Lens ID


R6 + Zeiss (_MG_3306.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 33 (twice)
  • Lens Info: 135 135 0 0
  • Lens Model: not filled in (twice)
  • Lens ID: 33

 

6D + Zeiss (_MG_3309.CR2):

  • Lens Type: 33, 0
  • Lens Info: 135 135 0 0
  • Lens Model: 135mm (twice)
  • Lens ID: 33

 

R6 + Canon 70-200 (_MG_3307.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 251 (twice)
  • Lens Info: 70 200 0 0
  • Lens Model: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (twice)
  • Lens ID: 251

 

6D + Canon 70-200 (_MG_3308.CR3):

  • Lens Type: 251, 0
  • Lens Info: 70 200 0 0
  • Lens Model: EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM (twice)
  • Lens ID: 251

 

The case that is most curious is that of 6D + Zeiss (_IMG_3309.CR2), because that one shows the correct lensidentification in both Lightroom and Flickr while the Lens Model-tags does not indicate that it is Zeiss 135 APO SONNAR....So Adobe is capable concluding it is a Zeiss 135 APO SONNAR somehow, but don't ask me how.

I know that Lens ID/Lens Type number 33 represents the Zeiss 135 APO SONNAR on the exiv2-github canon config website:

{33, "Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f/2 SLII Aspherical"},
{33, "Voigtlander Color Skopar 20mm f/3.5 SLII Aspherical"}, // 1
{33, "Voigtlander APO-Lanthar 90mm f/3.5 SLII Close Focus"}, // 2
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 15mm f/2.8 ZE"}, // 3
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 18mm f/3.5 ZE"}, // 4
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 21mm f/2.8 ZE"}, // 5
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 25mm f/2 ZE"}, // 6
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 28mm f/2 ZE"}, // 7
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 35mm f/2 ZE"}, // 8
{33, "Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 35mm f/1.4 ZE"}, // 9
{33, "Carl Zeiss Planar T* 50mm f/1.4 ZE"}, // 10
{33, "Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 50mm f/2 ZE"}, // 11
{33, "Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 100mm f/2 ZE"}, // 12
{33, "Carl Zeiss Apo-Sonnar T* 135mm f/2 ZE"}, // 13


But Adobe does not make use of exiv2, so I have no clue how Adobe does it....

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Community Expert ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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Regarding the 6D + Zeiss combination - could be that some time in the distant past, you selected the correct lens profile and saved it as a 'Default' in the LrC Lens Corrections panel?

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Community Beginner ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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I never changed anything about the lens correction functionality in Lightroom. I always check the checkbox of Lens Corrections yes, and under "setup" it indeed says "Default" then.

 

This is after import:

Deathchant_0-1669819058113.png

This is after checking the checkbox:

Deathchant_1-1669819115154.png

Not sure how this is relevant...

I have the exact same issue with the Zeiss 100MP and Zeiss 50MP...

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LEGEND ,
Nov 30, 2022 Nov 30, 2022

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Summary

 

The R6 isn't writing the lens model into the industry-standard EXIF:LensModel field for the Zeiss Apo Sonnar T* 2/135 ZE, though it is writing correct identifying information for the lens in the manufacturer-proprietary Makernotes.  This is almost certainly a bug in the R6 firmware, since your photo of the R6 display shows it's identified the lens as "135mm" and it's writing a correct lens id into Makernotes.

 

Details

 

How cameras and apps handle lens information is an industry mess.

 

Here are the relevant industry-standard EXIF fields and what Exiftool and LR report:

 

johnrellis_5-1669837409560.png

(I used Any Filter's Sort command to export this, and Any Filter uses Exiftool.)

 

EXIF:Model and EXIF:LensModel are written by the camera. Note that EXIF:LensModel is blank for the R6 with the Zeiss lens. That's a bug. In general, most cameras don't write the complete lens model into EXIF:LensModel.

 

Composite:LensID is what Exiftool thinks the lens is, using EXIF fields and information in the manufacturer-specific Makernotes (usually but not always Makernotes:LensID).  Exiftool has its own database mapping those fields to lens names.

 

Metadata > Lens is what LR shows in its Metadata panel. It usually displays EXIF:LensModel or, if that is missing, EXIF:LensInfo -- that's what's happening with the R6 and the Zeiss.  But for some reason, it's displaying "Zeiss Apo Sonnar T* 2/135 ZE" for the 6D. It must be getting that from the Lens Profile Name (see next) -- I've never seen that behavior before.

 

Lens Corrections > Lens Profile Name is the name of the currently selected lens profile in LR's Lens Corrections panel.  LR selects the default lens profile using EXIF fields and Makernotes fields (usually but not always Makernotes:LensID).  It's "database" of lens profiles  (.lcp text files in the application folder) usually but not always agrees with Exiftool.

 

It would be less confusing if LR's Metadata panel also showed the lens model inferred by the Lens Correction panel, but it usually doesn't, alas.

 

I believe Flickr uses Exiftool to show metadata fields, which explains why you see "Zeiss" with the R6.

 

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 01, 2022 Dec 01, 2022

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hi John,

 

Thanks for your detailed explanation. I believe I came to the same conclusions as you.

Canon CPS told me last week the following:

- Writing exif data is difficult, but we still do it exactly the same way

- We know that Adobe does not consider our written fields during import

- You can see all info with Canon DPP software, this will be our "bible" since we cannotdo anything about other software. Other brands also experience this with Adobe.

 - A possibility could be that lensinfo (in case of 3rd party lenses) is not sent to the camera because the electronic contacts don't match correctly and "code language" is not shared. This is a given disadvantage of using non-Canon lenses. This will not change unfortunately.

 

I've sent Canon CPS an email with this detailed research, concluding that the above is debunked by my examples and that I would like to hear from them if they pick it up or put it on the agenda for a firmware update.

 

I've contacted contacted Canon CPS before with autofocus related issues with my 6D and after that also generic aperture-closing-during-liveview issues, and they actually never really helped before; I was the one doing all the research, serving all "evidence" on a plate, but they never did anything with it. So let's hope this won't be the third time of them telling me I have to live with it.

 

John, thanks again for helping me out here. Really appreciate it.

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Community Beginner ,
Dec 06, 2022 Dec 06, 2022

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LATEST

Hi John,

I've informed Canon CPS and they are going to forward it to Canon Europe, but they are not sure if it will lead to change. They litteraly say they don't see it as a bug as they want us to buy Canon lenses, not 3rd party lenses. If there are more compliants like these, it is more likely to be picked up. Now the R6 II is here, they don't think there will be a issue-specific FW-update for the R6. They hope Canon will fix it in the next FW-update that fixes defects.

 

I realize it now seems that this lensinfo EXIF-thingy seems huge for me, but this is the 3rd time they have been no help at all whatsoever. I've had (still have) 6D autofocus issues which have been looked at 3 times...no solution. I have the issue that during liveview the aperture closes while it is set on f/2, resulting in miss-focus. And I know that focus-shift of the zeiss lenses play a role in this, but it is not needed for the camera (R6 does it too) to close the aperture while it should stay open during liveview. Zeiss, Voigtlander and others are not producing Canon-RF mount lenses, so now wish I invested in the Sony A7 III back in 2018 when the 6D mark II was such a disappointment. Despite the very good ergonomics and intuitiveness of their bodies and their color-science, I think this is the last time I've invested in Canon. For my purposes, I see a better future regarding 3rd party lenses in the Sony-mount.

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