P: CMYK soft proofing needed

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Following a discussion on the LR4 beta forum:

Converting to CMYK and soft proofing in CMYK are two completely different things, so at least we need a CMYK softproofing.

During the last years I ran into a lot of problems due to modern LED lightning on the scene, it is able to produce colors (especially in the blues) far away out of the CMYK color space. Converting pictures to CMYK later after my initial processing can change a picture dramatically, a bit similar to a conversion to b/w.

So even if you have to deliver your material in RGB and someone else is doing a professional conversion later, you should be able to predict what can happen to your material!

So if you deliver material that will be converted – earlier or later – to CMYK: You need at least a simple soft proof. Otherwise it can happen that you deliver material that simply can’t be published.

[TheDigitalDog]

Not back: RGB only.
Colors in ProPhoto RGB gamut outside of whatever CYMK gamut, no.

[Paul Nylander]

An old thread asked this question, but apparently the feature has since been added and removed again.

I use Lightroom Classic as part of my image processing workflow. While I might not do the conversion until PDF export from InDesign, it would be tremendously helpful to at least be able to soft proof images based on a target profile, intended for CMYK targets while processing. 

Export conversion to CMYK (again, specifying target profile) would be icing on the cake. It is rare to need this nowadays, but often enough that this feature would help.

[Earth Oliver]

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/softproof-in-lightroom-icc-profile-missing/td-p/976...

[Paul Nylander]

Yes, that is one of the old threads I referenced.

It would be good to see Adobe address this continued shortcoming.

[TheDigitalDog]

LR's engine is RGB for one. There was a time in the past, for like one version where some CMYK support was around and it was buggy and didn't work, so it was removed. 

IF you need to be dealing with CMYK, you need Photoshop. 

[phfsly]

I'd like to put again this very old complaint back on the table.

If we use Lightroom as an integrated piece of software, this is because the entire workflow from Raw file to final print is well managed...

... Except for the "Book" module, linked to Blurb, who doesn't provide sRVB ICC profile for soft proofing (or Lightroom doesn't handle CMYK profile).

And using Photoshop is not an option (too cumbersome).

Does Adobe work on this ? 

[JohanElzenga]

Adobe does not comment on future developments, but I doubt very much that they are working on this.

[johnrellis]

Moderators, @Rikk Flohr: Photography, please move into Ideas.

[TheDigitalDog]

Blurb can't be soft-proofed! It's a CMYK output device (HP Indigo press for the interior, covers are likely a very different press based on my testing). Plus, even Blurb doesn't really provide profiles for soft proofing despite what they would like you to believe. The one profile they provide is supposed to be used for all papers, which is silly. 

The Blurb ICC profile is definitely GRACoL2006 Coated1, right down to the paper white L*a*b*. What they're using is essentially a copy of the IDEAlliance GRACoL profile and has little to do with how they're actually printing.

I have measured all the papers Blurb provides, and just the papers alone are not even close to GRACol 2006. In fact, the deltaE differences in just the two most different papers are nearly dE4!

There is really zero support for CMYK in LR. That's what Photoshop is for. But until Blurb actually gets their 'Color Management' act together and provides real output profiles to define the entire process for all papers and conditions, soft proofing, even in Photoshop, is iffy at best. 

And yes, Adobe doesn't comment on future development like this openly. I too doubt very much that they are working on this, considering CMYK isn't the domain of LR, and the one version where they tried didn't work, and such support was removed. 

[Per Berntsen]

It was possible for a short period to soft proof with CMYK profiles in the Develop module.

The feature was introduced in version 6.0, and removed in 6.3 I think, because of some problem.

As far as I can remember, it worked properly in the beginning.

I'd love to have it back, it's a drag to have to go to Photoshop for soft proofing.

[TheDigitalDog]

As far as I can remember, it worked properly in the beginning.

By @Per Berntsen

My memory was the opposite; it was a real mess, and hence the entire CMYK architecture was removed. 

But even if it were to come back, it wouldn't solve the problems with Blurb providing a generic CMYK profile that doesn't define all (any?) of their output conditions. 

[Jakub22445158kcy9]

Hi there,

I've read that It is not possible to soft proof using CMYK ICC profiles. But is it really true? 

I've seen few blog/vlog content that describes installing profiles on LR, soft proofing, etc in which they are able to use particular (non-display) ICC profiles. In examlple, here: https://youtu.be/hCazWVOGkfs?si=dm_rI8NQuCa9OvNo

Also, why there is a check-box for "simulate paper&ink" which is always gray out?

So where is the truth?  Why they can but we don't!?

I'm using LR Classic 13.0.1 and MacOS Ventura.

[JohanElzenga]

Yes, that is really true. There is no support for CMYK profiles at all in Lightroom. Not for soft proofing and not for exporting. You seem to think that only display profiles are RGB-based profiles however, but that is not true. Most inkjet printers expect RGB input, not CMYK input, and so their icc-profiles are RGB based, not CMYK based.

The checkbox "simulate paper & ink" is only grayed out if you have selected an icc-profile that is not a printer profile, such as a display icc-profile or one of the working profiles (sRGB, AdobeRGB).

[Jakub22445158kcy9]

I see now. Thanks for explanation. So, I have a CMYK profile which is useless for LR. Do you know if it is possible to convert somehome such profile to RGB? 

[JohanElzenga]

I don't think you can convert CMYK icc-profiles to RGB icc-profiles.

[Conrad C]

I've seen few blog/vlog content that describes installing profiles on LR, soft proofing, etc in which they are able to use particular (non-display) ICC profiles. In examlple, here: https://youtu.be/hCazWVOGkfs?si=dm_rI8NQuCa9OvNo

By @Jakub22445158kcy9

Do you mean the list of profiles shown and selected when he soft-proofs about 10 minutes into the video?

Every profile shown in that profile chooser list is a normal ICC print profile for a Canon Pro inkjet printer. Like almost all desktop pro photo inkjet printers, especially the ones by Canon and Epson, those ICC profiles are RGB-based. The printer driver expects to receive RGB color data from the application, and converts it to the specific ink set used for its printer.

The conversion cannot be CMYK, because those printers do not have four CMYK inks. They have a lot more than four. His Canon Pro-10 has ten ink cartridges, including two shades each of gray, cyan, and magenta, plus red, two kinds of black ink for glossy or matte papers, and some kind of “chroma optimizer” cartridge. So it’s really a CcMmYKkkRO printer. That is why you must not send it just CMYK data, and why a CMYK profile isn’t useful on that printer. It must be converted to values for each of its ten inks directly from RGB.

Based on the “RR” profile names shown in the video, the profiles were probably downloaded from the website for Red River papers, here:

https://www.redrivercatalog.com/profiles/canon-pro-10-icc-printer-color-profiles.html

Now, if you do have a true CMYK profile and you must soft-proof to it, there are a couple of answers there:

Some earlier versions of Lightroom Classic were able to use CMYK profiles. But support was pulled several versions ago, can’t remember how many years back. So that fact that CMYK support is not there is intentional, for some reason.

If you have a true need to soft-proof a raw file using an actual CMYK profile, Adobe Camera Raw can do it…part of the puzzle is why ACR can, and Lightroom Classic can’t. This also means a raw file included as a Smart Object layer in Photoshop can be soft-proofed in Photoshop, which does support CMYK profiles for soft-proofing.

[Per Berntsen]

You can soft proof with CMYK profiles in Photoshop.

Click Custom to choose a profile if it is not your working CMYK profile.

[johnrellis]

Moderators, @Rikk Flohr: Photography, please merge with this Idea:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-ideas/p-cmyk-soft-proofing-needed/idi-p/12249403