P: Delete Images on Card after Import

Report · Jun 03, 2011

I would love to get an option to let LR automatically delete images from the card after they have been successfully imported. Images on the card that have not been imported, are let alone, of course.

It would serve two purposes for me:
1. It would save me deleting the images manually.
2. It would dramatically improve the experience of importing images from one card into different catalogs.

An incremental import of subsets of images on one card into a single catalog (but e.g., different folders) is well supported by the "New Photos" filter in the import dialog. However, when I switch catalogs while downloading images from a card -- because some subset of images on the card needs to go into a different catalog -- the "New Photos" filter no longer works. As a result, I have to remember and wade through a lot of images I already imported into a different catalog.

I realise that deleting images from the card is a sensitive issue. It must not happen prior to having verified that the image indeed has been copied (or converted) to a new location. Picasa supports this double checking.

As a safety net, Lightroom could offer a "restore deleted images" feature that would resurrect deleted files from cards. Users will find such a feature tremendously useful for other occasions as well.

I'd be happy with the following compromises as well:

* The option to delete images after import is available only if one activates a second backup location.

* Images are not deleted but the tracking of which images have already been imported is extended to work across catalogs. A record of what images still need to be imported could be associated with a currently inserted card.

Report · Jun 04, 2011

"What is the normal procedure after images have been imported into Lightroom? "

Generally, I wait for previews to be rendered, and then I look at the thumbs. If the thumbs could be adequately rendered from the original data, then it's highly likely that the original data is okay.

I'd be okay with adding this feature under two conditions:

1) Some sort of strong hash technique is used to check the data automatically.
2) The method of deleting the data off the cards is to open the imported images in grid mode (possibly using the previously-imported temporary collection), waiting until a render of some sort has been done from the original data, and then opening up something similar to the delete confirmation box while the images are still on the screen - a box with appropriate warnings including the suggestion to have a look at the displayed thumbs. The box must not restrict the user's ability to scroll through the grid.

Report · Jun 04, 2011

This is the first counter-argument I've heard that seems compelling to me.

If a faulty reader could result in a bad read of good data, then the backup validation would succeed and good files would be destructively deleted.

For this to be a problem however, the faulty reader would have to read in the same faulty data twice in a row, and in such a fashion that the faulty data still passes Lightroom's own data integrity scrutiny that occurs upon import.

I can see that in the manual case, one might have a chance to look at the thumbs before deleting. But doesn't Lightroom detect these bad files shortly after importing - when generating the previews?

Perhaps a solution that would be more foolproof would be to wait until the previews have been created to delete the files, instead of doing it immediately after import & backup validation.

And of course as was already mentioned, if Lightroom is able to generate a successful preview, and backup validation succeeds, but the user would be able to detect something wrong that the software couldn't and so files were deleted by software that wouldn't have been by user, there is still card recovery software...

Report · Jun 04, 2011

If Lightroom can generate a successful preview of the imported images and backup validates, they should be safe to delete, and in the rare case that the user would have been able to discover a problem before deleting that the software couldn't before deleting, there's always card recovery software.

So it really should boil down to personal preference, in my opinion.

Delete manually if it makes you feel safer, or otherwise works out better for you, or have software delete if it is a pre-requisite to optimizing your workflow, and you are willing to take what are really very small chances.

Summary:
=======
It may actually be safer to let the software decide when to delete, rather than the user. But both options should be supported, in my opinion.

Report · Jun 04, 2011

Thanks, Lee Jay. I'd be fine with what you propose.

Report · Jun 04, 2011

Victoria, I realise that user mistakes are not the only source for import problems; I was just replying to one of the points Jim made.

I'd be fine with a manual triggering of the deletion of images on the card after one had a look at the previews (the rendered ones, not the previews contained in files).

In principle, however, the problem isn't as big as it appears. After the images on the card have been deleted, they are not gone. It is very easy to bring them back again, provided the card is not written on. A "recover card" feature integrated into LR would be most convenient, but there are also free software solutions available that could be used to restore a card, should it become necessary. We are really talking about exceptional situations, aren't we?

Report · Jun 04, 2011

Jim, thanks for your input.

I disagree that the user you are talking about would be "unsuspecting". The user would have had to confirm a warning dialogue (either when choosing the option once, or -- if it has to be -- before they remove the images).

The ultimate fall-back would not really be taken away as it is very easy to recover deleted images from a card, provided the card has not been written to in the meantime.

I take your word regarding users having had to resort to the card again. Yet, we are talking about quite rare situations here, right? If my card reader played up once, I'd replace it immediately.

BTW, I was aware that you personally use the second backup option. My use of "you" was mean in a general sense, as in "one".

Once Lightroom has checked previews can be generated from the files, has compared them to images on the card (hash code or byte-for-byte comparison), made a backup, and imported them, I'd be fine with the immediate deletion of the images on the card (knowing that I could get back to them anyhow). If someone still thinks this would be a too haphazard approach, they need not tick the option in the preferences.

Report · Jun 04, 2011

TK said: "As a safety net, Lightroom could offer a "restore deleted images" feature that would resurrect deleted files from cards. Users will find such a feature tremendously useful for other occasions as well. "

Might even be worthy of a separate FR/Idea, although since I already have a 3rd party utility for it, I shan't bring it up. I'll just say they do work extremely well. They can simply recover recently deleted photos, or even recover files from many shoots ago, *after* dozens of reformats - amazing really...

Report · Jun 04, 2011

And that from you??? When you've nothing worth saying, stay quiet. Might be too much to ask, I know.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

I'm not sure I can add much to this lengthy debate here and elsewhere, but from my perspective:-

I have never (that I am aware of) lost an image from a faulty import or disk crash immediately after import.
I have, however, accidentally deleted images I thought were imported but weren't.
whatever the pros and cons of doing it one way or another, I cannot understand why Adobe insists on treating users of a piece of professional software like they need to be hand held like this. Allow the option (with warnings if really necessary) and let people do their thing and take the consequences.

For people who do want to delete after import, there is a reasonably straightforward way to do this (at least on LR3.4/MacOS).

set up and save an import preset the way you want it, but importing from e.g. files on your main disk so you can select 'move'
when you want to import from a memory card, select the DCIM folder in the card under 'files', not in 'devices'.
the import preset will probably show (edited) after it - reselect the original preset
none of the copy to dng/copy/move/add buttons show as selected, and you still can't click on 'move', but underneath it should say 'move photos to new location... etc'
click on 'import'

There may be other permutations of this principle which will work, but that's what worked for me.

Hopefully Adobe won't flag this as a bug and 'fix' it.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

I've always heard the mantra that rather than deleting the card on the computer, you should format it in the camera instead for various safety-related reasons. That's what I do, after I've verified that the images have been copied to two locations on hard drives.

That said, most other import programs have the function you're asking for. I think Nikon Transfer has it. I don't think the omission from Lightroom is a safeguard; it is simply that Adobe probably has a different workflow in mind than the one you propose (and this time they agree with me; maybe it's just a bug that will be "fixed" soon).

Report · Jun 08, 2011

Yeah, I think people are a little "over eager" to cite "safeguard" sometimes, but I really don't know, in this case.

I sometimes delete photos from card via computer and sometimes re-format in camera, depending on stuff - never had a problem with the former. But TK's workflow is what's at stake for him here. He may still re-format afterward in camera sometimes, or all the time, I really don't know, but optimizing ones workflow, even if unconventional, in my opinion, is a good reason to do stuff.

If he were the only one on the planet that wanted this, or it took a lot of work to implement, then I'd agree with John Beardsworth: "tough luck", but neither of those things is true.

Final thought: Sometimes vendors create mantras to avoid having to explain the real deal, realizing that smart people know when *not* to follow the pied piper...

Does the fact that many other software's have this option indicate that Adobe is more concerned with our safety than the others? - my guess: they were just too busy doing other things...

Report · Jun 08, 2011

The mantra to always use the camera's format function doesn't make much sense. The card uses a standard file format (typically one of the FAT versions). PC/Mac operating systems can deal with these formats and won't corrupt the card when deleting files.

I have used the format function of my camera perhaps once or twice in the beginning. From then on, I always just deleted the files within the top folder and left the top folder untouched. Number of problems encountered with this approach: Zero.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

Card bits can only be written so many times, so the in-camera formatting supposedly includes an algorithm for distributing writes, to avoid writing the front part of the card over and over again and the rear part approximately never, improving longevity.

(Seems I've heard video performance cited too, but I'm not sure about that and I don't understand it)

But based on my recent experience of being able to re-claim photos I'd taken a long time ago after multiple in-camera reformats, the rationale is suspect, in my mind. Sometimes old news is wrong news...

In any case, if there still is, even sometimes, a good reason to always reformat in-camera, I wish Adobe would just explain, maybe as part of the "Are You Sure" prompt that comes up when the user enables the delete after import option.

I mean, defragging wears out your hard drive, but a lot of people do it. Makes 'em a little faster and/or allows you to run 'em fuller, but you have to replace sooner - user's prerogative.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

Which card bits get written to is controlled by the card controller (not the camera). It uses a wear balancing algorithm. I'd be very surprised if the camera could actually get down to this level. I'm pretty sure the camera just does what an operating system does.

On the contrary, if one is unlucky the camera does a full-format, i.e., cleans bits that the operating system leaves alone with its "quick format" (or simple deletion of files). In this case the camera would wear out the card sooner than the operating system. Your camera does not seem to perform a full format and I don't know if any camera does, but what it does to the card can only be equivalent or worse what a computer does, I'm pretty sure.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

So then why do you suppose so many experts and camera manuals recommend to reformat in camera vs. delete? - The common "understanding" is that its for technical reasons, not just convenience.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

Rob, I do not know what the motivation for the "format" recommendation is. I can speculate that whatever the camera does to the card, it has been tested to work with this formatting. However, if the camera does not create a valid file system, preventing you from just deleting files, your camera firmware is at fault, not your workflow. I cannot think of a good reason to always format in camera. You should ask the people who make this recommendation.

Would the same people recommend that you should not delete files from your USB stick, but regularly format it (in a special device, of course, not with a computer)? Camera memory cards and flash memory based USB sticks are block storage devices that do not differ in any fundamental way.

Report · Jun 08, 2011

I see what you are saying TK, perhaps people have jumped to some wrong conclusions and that's what's stuck - wouldn't be the first time. - Cheers.

Report · Jun 09, 2011

The recommendation is a bit dated, I believe. I think it stems from poor filesystem implementations at the edges -- implementers did a good job with things like format and read and write, but did less well with lesser-used functions like delete, rename, etc. You could trust your camera to do a good job with format and write, but couldn't trust it as far with delete. So it's safest to treat the card as a format-and-create device in the camera and a read-only device in the computer.

Whether those concerns are well-founded today is unknown to me, but the resulting workflow is excellent for most purposes. It promotes data integrity in a strong way and is not inconvenient for the vast majority. So regardless of the origins, it has become dogma.

In this thread, TK has suggested a rare use case for which for which this doesn't work well -- he wants to import a subset of the images into one catalog, and a different subset into another. Many photographers solve this by using a different card for each shoot, but if that wasn't done at shooting time there's no good workaround in LR today.

Report · Jun 09, 2011

Mark, you write "...he wants to import a subset of the images into one catalog, and a different subset into another. Many photographers solve this by using a different card for each shoot,...".

It is not always possible to solve this problem by using different cards. Say you have a day out with the family and take photos of family members and also macro shots of flowers for your photography group in an interleaved fashion. It is not practical to change the card every time you see a different photo opportunity.

Report · Jun 10, 2011

Try importing the card in a single step into a master catalogue and then farm the pictures out to different catalogues. Would that be more work? It seems like it would be exactly the same amount of work but safer.

Report · Jun 21, 2011

I've read many of these discussions on about 9 different threads over the years and understand other's points, but still am looking for a true MOVE (with delete) option in Lightroom.

Personally I prefer the convenience (and trust automated proceedures) in having LightRoom copy images to two separate drives (with verification) and then mark the source images as deleted (i.e., possible to restore with some hassle) over a manual human process. Provide warnings, sure, but don't prejudge my workflow!

Manually deleting images and formatting cards is laborious and error prone for me. (I could easily miss partial success, such as a full hard drive, whereas software wouldn't mistake this.)

Rob Cole, you mentioned a way to create this functionality at the start fo this thread. I'd love to hear more details.

Report · Jun 21, 2011

John - I sent you an email.

Be aware: 'RC Importer' does *not* validate imported file nor backup byte-for-byte nor even size-wise before deleting. It *does* check that the photo was successfully copied and imported by Lightroom *and* successfully copied to backup, before deleting. But a successful copy is determined soley by copy status as reported - does not double-check data.

But, so far in my plugin development career and as plugin user - number of times copy status was good but copy wasn't: zero. - not sayin' it isn't possible, just sayin' it hasn't happened yet...

For comparison purposes only: number of human errors inadvertently deleting files that shouldn't have been: more than zero ;-}

Rob

Report · Jun 24, 2011

Just a reminder: If ImportActions are implemented, a simple action could be implemented to delete files post import (after thorough validation). Code for deletion would not even exist if user did not explicitly install/wire-up the action. No option, no code, no possibility to oppsidentally authorize deletion, except for people who want it. And, Adobe would not have to do anything more, nor take any responsibility...

Report · Sep 25, 2011

Popular photo management tools (Picasa, iPhoto, etc.) do this and it actually introduces corruption to the card after a while. After several months, an oft-used 4GB card can be reduced to only a few hundred MB of useable space.

I'm an IT guy and I've had to train my users to NOT use this function on those applications, but rather get into the practice of formatting the memory card in the camera itself after import. We have not had any issues since implementing this practice.

I would strongly advise AGAINST implementing this feature. It's unnecessarily introduces problems into the process.

Report · Sep 25, 2011

Presumably Adobe engineers could get the deletion process done right - as Mark Sirota notes above. Properly done, file systems should NOT consume an ever growing portion of a disk drive.

I recently had a card with issues reading. If Lightroom woudl have marked the properly read images as deleted would have been super helpful - now I have another 20-30 minute project to do a manual compare process. Life is too short!

Adobe Community

P: Delete Images on Card after Import