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Fuji X100s Lens Corrections in LR5

Community Beginner ,
Sep 02, 2013

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I keep hearing conflicting reports about how Lightroom handles lens corrections for the Fuji X100s.  Some say you need to use the X100 profile while others say that Lightroom applies the corrections automatically, behind the scenes, based on info embedded in the raw file itself and that selecting the X100 profile would only "double up" on the corrections.  Others have said that there is no X100s profile yet but NOT to use the X100 profile because it might make things worse since the sensor has changed and the new X-Trans sensor and lens combination would likely need different corrections than the old one.

Some clarification would be really appreciated.

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Fuji X100s Lens Corrections in LR5

Community Beginner ,
Sep 02, 2013

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I keep hearing conflicting reports about how Lightroom handles lens corrections for the Fuji X100s.  Some say you need to use the X100 profile while others say that Lightroom applies the corrections automatically, behind the scenes, based on info embedded in the raw file itself and that selecting the X100 profile would only "double up" on the corrections.  Others have said that there is no X100s profile yet but NOT to use the X100 profile because it might make things worse since the sensor has changed and the new X-Trans sensor and lens combination would likely need different corrections than the old one.

Some clarification would be really appreciated.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 02, 2013

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If you have an X100s camera, yourself, you should be able to confirm whether LR is doing its own corrections behind the scenes:

Take a raw and a jpg of a regular pattern like bricks or graph-paper, and then look to see if the raw looks similarly corrected compared with the camera JPG assuming corrections are turned on in the camera.

Do the same pair of shots of a blank, light-colored, evenly-lit wall and see if the vignetting correction is applied to both the raw and the jpg. Wide-angle probably would show more vignetting than zoomed in.

Currently, with the profiles that installed with LR 5.2 RC, there is an X100 lens profile for but no a profile with X100s in its filename.

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Sep 02, 2013 0
Community Beginner ,
Sep 02, 2013

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I have done this and initially concluded that Lightroom was doing corrections behind the scenes because the raw and jpeg looked the same distortion-wise but then was told by someone on another forum that the out of camera jpegs do not have any corrections applied to them.

So, it would be really nice to hear what Adobe has to say about it.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Do the out-of-camera JPGs have distortions or not?

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 03, 2013

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ssprengel:

The out of camera jpegs seem to have no corrections applied.  I will have to do some controlled testing to confirm but that is what I have read as well.  The camera only corrects for chromatic aberration in jpegs.

DdeGannes:

Well, there are lens corrections for the X100 in Lightroom.  So, apparently there is some correctable distortion in the X100 or why would Adobe, or anyone, bother.  The X100s uses the same lens as the X100.

My jpegs and raws look the same.  So, either the camera corrects distortion on both, it corrects distortion on neither or it corrects distortion on the jpegs and Adobe is correcting the distortion on the raw files in the background (which many people claim).

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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If it is in fact using the same lens and Fujifilm has not made any improvements to its design, then I would try using it and see what adjustment it makes if any. No harm in trying Lightroom is a non destructive editor so you can turn the lens correction on or off.

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.7: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.2, Ps 21.2.4, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Using RawDigger to view the raw file w/o going through LR, and comparing that to LR’s conversion, it appears LR is at least applying vignetting correction.

2013-09-03_093243.jpg

The sample raw file:  http://www.magezinepublishing.com/equipment/images/equipment/X100S-4990/raw/DSCF1039.RAF

From this page:  http://www.ephotozine.com/article/fujifilm-x100s-sample-photos-21593

RawDigger:  http://www.rawdigger.com/

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 03, 2013

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ssprengel:

It's hard for me to tell sine the processing is different on each file.  I don't see any difference in the vignetting on your sample images on my end.  The Lightroom one just looks darker and has a different white balance.  I'll have to do some testing on my end.

It makes no sense that Lightroom would correct vignetting automatically but not distortion.  That may be what is happening but I think it makes no sense because if you then apply the x100 lens profile to correct distortions it also corrects the vignetting which gives you double correction of vignetting.

Again, I would love to hear from Adobe what is going on here.  Anyone from Adobe care to comment?

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Sep 03, 2013 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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With LR4.4.1 an Adobe (Fujifilm FinePix x100) lens profile is available, which does apply both Distortion and Vignetting correction when enabled. The lens apparently has low distortion and I see only a small amount of correction applied using the LR lens profile. Vignetting correction even at F8 is very noticeable using the F8 ISO 200 raw file downloaded from here:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/movies.dpreview.com/fujifilm_x100/DSCF3989.zip

If the in-camera JPEG and raw file look the same without the LR lens profile applied, the camera is not applying Lens corrections to the JPEG.

I don't see any issues inside LR with the RAF raw file.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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These statements make sense about the X100 which has a lens profile in LR that can be turned on and off, but we’re talking about the X100S, not the X100, and there is no X100S lens profile to turn on and off so one cannot tell whether LR is always or never correcting the distortion by using LR, alone.

My analysis, above, comparing the RawDigger (dcraw) raw conversion which shows a slight darkening in the corners and the LR conversion which does not, is that vignetting is being corrected by LR automatically, but there is so little geometric distortion in the test raw I found that I can’t tell one way or the other about that correction.

My guess would be that Adobe does what the camera does, and if there is no way to turn off the lens corrections in the camera then Adobe has them automatically enabled all the time, like they do with many other point-and-shoot and mirrorless cameras, nowadays.

With a better example X100S raw, maybe shot at F/8 as the X100 sample is, it would be easier to see a difference between the raw-digger and LR conversions.

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Sep 03, 2013 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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What a difference one-letter makes! At least we know the available Adobe lens profile works fine with the predecessor X100 raw files.

ssprengel wrote:

My guess would be that Adobe does what the camera does, and if there is no way to turn off the lens corrections in the camera then Adobe has them automatically enabled all the time, like they do with many other point-and-shoot and mirrorless cameras, nowadays.

The only way I'm aware of that LR can apply lens corrections is with the Profile and Color panels in the Develop module. Both of which can be manually enabled or disabled.

It should be  easy to check if LR is applying any lens corrections by comparing the JPEG and raw images inside LR:

Shoot a large "evenly lit" 2D subject with linear detail, such as a brickwall. Use maximum aperture and widest zoom setting, which is probably worst case for both vignetting and distortion. Make sure the camera is perpendicular to the subject so that there is no convergence (horizontal and vertical lines parallel to the viewfinder frame)

Open both images in LR and adjust the raw image using the Basic controls to match the JPEG image in tonality as close as possible. Adjust the Exposure setting as required so that the central area of both images is identical. Use the White Balance eydropper to sample the RGB levels in each image corner and then the center of the image. If the corner areas of the raw file are different than the JPEG then LR is not applying corrections, but the in-camera JPEG is corrected. If they both show "falloff" then neither is corrected.

For distortion simply A/B between the JPEG and raw image in LR. With a subject like a brickwall it will be very obvious if either file has distortion. If they both look the same but the lines show bowing then neither image has distortion lens corrections applied, etc.........

It's probably easier and quicker to test than typing it here! The key is to use an evenly lit 2D subject with nice straight lines.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Maybe you are not aware of Eric Chan’s reply (#4) about two other Fuji cameras not seeming to have any lens corrections available, where he’s adding the correct answer to my list of other possibilities about why there were no lens profiles:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/5224365#5224365

The point is that the raw and jpg could look the same in LR, not only because there are no corrections applied, but because there are always corrections applied that cannot be turned off, corrections that do not depend on an .lcp file existing.

Assuming the raw and jpg do always look the same as far as lens distortions in LR, the way to test for there being hidden, automatic corrections, is to use a raw converter other than one from Adobe and see if the distortion and vignetting are worse in a raw converter that does not include corrections.

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Sep 03, 2013 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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You are correct I was unaware of that post with comment from Eric Chan. DPReview indicates the X100 only applies chromatic aberration correction to the in-camera JPEG, which may also be the case for the X100s. So you think LR is applying distortion and vignetting correction "automatically" to both JPEGs and raw images?

Shooting a "brickwall" or similar subject and checking inside LR as outlined should give you enough precision to determine if distortion and vignetting is being corrected (i.e. virtually none) in the JPEG, raw or both image files. The only uncertainty would be whether LR or the camera is applying the corrections to the JPEG. You can also try applying the X100 lens profile to the raw file and then A/B compare it to the JPEG. If there is double-correction it should be glaring obvious. It appears the same 23mm F2 lens is used on both the X100 and X100s.

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Adobe Employee ,
Sep 03, 2013

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ACR/Lr applies lens corrections automatically when processing raw files from all recent Fujifilm camera models (including X100S).  Note that this does not mean that you should expect the results to be rectilinearly perfect (i.e., scene lines map to perfect lines in the image).  In many cases, camera-driven optical corrections are conservative, by design.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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If I had purchased this camera from Fujifilm at the price with a fixed prime lens and found the lens lacking and requiring distortion correction I would be extreamly disapointed.

This is not a camera which has the ability to change lenses it is one fixed lens at a standard focal lenght. Not a wide to standard zoom feature. It should require little or nil distortion correction.

I defer to Eric's post which is the lens corrections are being applied by automatically by Adobe and I am sure Fujifilms firmware by design and there is no need to have a specific lens profile produced.

i.e Neither Fujifilm or Adobe allow you to see the image without the design corrections applied. Similar corrections are applied to my Panasonic G3 raw files for the standard kit lens.

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.7: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.2, Ps 21.2.4, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Here are a couple more demonstrations of LR peforming automatic corrections:

First another example of raw-digger's uncorrected version vs LR 5.2 RC's automatic vignetting correction:

2013-09-03_205634.jpg

And maybe easier to see, comparing LR's automatic correction left, to a double correction when the X100 profile is erroroneously applied, right:

2013-09-03_210215.jpg

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Thanks Eric,

So this applies to vignetting and chromatic aberration as well?

When checking the usual suspect areas I've noticed some changes in images when selecting/deselecting "Remove Chromatic Aberration" (it's hard to tell whether or not the changes or better or worse since there doesn't seem to be alot of it either way and because of the zoom levels required to see the changes).  Is selecting it just doubling up on the correction as well or must I select it for X100s raws?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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The automatic correction certainly applies to vignetting as my examples, just above, illustrate.

Eric may answer definitively, but from what I understand, profile-based CA is different than the Remove CA checkbox, because the this Remove CA checkbox analyzes the image, itself, looking for any CA, so I'd guess its corrections are in addition to any profile-based CA.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 03, 2013

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One thing that I find interesting is that if you take a an OOC jpeg and a raw of the same scene process the jpeg in PTLens and the RAW in Lightroom using the X100 lens correction profile, the distortion characteristics are very close.  Lines are straight.

This confuses things yet again.  Does this mean Fuji thinks a nearly distortion free image is a bad thing?  And if enabling the X100 profile adds to the corrections already done by Lightroom in the background, shouldn't the two images NOT look the same where distortion is concerned since one has been corrected twice?

I think I need a holiday.

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Sep 03, 2013 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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You should NOT be applying the X100 lens profile to X100S images in LR because LR has already corrected the images.

You should not be applying PTLens corrections to X100S JPGs because the camera has applied lens corrections, already.

Fuji has nothing to do with LR applying profile-based corrections to a RAF nor PTLens applying a profile-based corrections to a JPG, so I don’t see how Fuji somehow “thinks a distortion free image is a bad thing.”

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Community Beginner ,
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ssprengel:

In both correction cases the resulting images (the multi target test image from the Imaging Resource website) look basically distortion free.  Before the corrections the images have visible distortion.

What am I missing?

The image I tested is available in raw and jpeg here.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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Ok what I’m seeing with the sample image you linked to might agree with some of what you’re saying:

All of the X100S conversions on the page that contains the one image you linked, below, including those from the camera, from ACR, from DCRAW and something else I am unsure of, seem to have a small amount of geometric pincushion distortion,, at least looking at the red rectangle near the outside of the test images. This pincushion distortion at the corners appears to be improved by applying the X100 lens profile. he whole page of images is here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/fuji-x100s/fuji-x100sA7.HTM

However, from my experiments with the X100 lens profile applied to the X100S images, the camera does do vignetting correction to its JPGs and Adobe also does vignetting correction to the raw files, so applying the X100 profile to these already-corrected images will apply a double correction yielding overlightened corners.

So, it seems that the X100 lens profile improves the X100S images’ pincushion distortion but the X100 lens profile double-corrects vignetting.

What I’d do if I had the camera would be to make a copy of the X100 lens profile, remove the vignetting correction portions of the profile if these are discernable, and then change the camera id to match that of the X100S so this hacked profile would provide the geometric distortions of the X100 lens but not over correct the vignetting. Perhaps the vignetting corrections are not easy to identify, I don’t know, since I don’t have the camera and have had no need to investigate.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 04, 2013

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I downloaded the X100ShVFAB.JPG and X100ShVFAB.RAF images from the link ssprengel provided. I also created a TIFF image using RawDigger as the raw converter. The image size from RawDigger is 4926 x 3296, requiring cropping in PS to the actual viewable image size of 4896 x 3264. I could see no difference in distortion between the RAF, JPEG, or RawDigger TIFF, which indicates LR is NOT automatically applying distortion lens correction.

(Click on image to see full-size)

X100ShVFAB-RGB_RawDigger_Crop_Comparison to Raw.jpg

1) Applying the LR X100 lens profile with default 100 Distortion setting removes the small amount of visible distortion in the RAF raw test chart image. In my opinion the distortion observed in the X100s chart image is very low and probably not visible in most subjects. The test chart was obviously shot at fairly close distance, which for most lenses  increases geometric distortion. With the lens focused at or near infinity  the distortion will probably be even lower. Applying the X100 lens profile to these image may in fact increase distortion.

2) Viewing the images at 1:1 view chromatic aberrations are corrected in both the RAF raw file and JPEG file, but not in the RawDigger TIFF. LR is "automatically" applying chromatic aberration correction with the 'Remove Chromatic Aberration' option unchecked (i.e. automatically). The  X100s JPEG apparently has chromatic aberration correction applied in-camera, same as the X100's JPEG.

3) Both the X100s RAF raw file and JPEG have vignetting correction applied when compared to the RawDigger TIFF. No additional vignetting correction is needed.

SUGGESTION to the OP:

1) LR's 'Remove Chromatic Aberration' tool under Lens Corrections> Color is not required. You can leave it unchecked. You may however need to use the 'Defringe' tool when other types of chromatic aberration are present in the image file.

2) You can apply the X100 lens profile to specific raw images (i.e. close-up shots that show the distortion) without Vignetting being applied. The best easiest way to do this is by changing the X100 lens profile defaults. Select an X100S RAF file, check 'Enable Profile Corrections,' select the X100 profile, move the Vignetting slider to '0,' and go to 'Setup' and select 'Save New Lens Profile Defaults.' You can then apply the lens profile as needed to specific images that have visible distortion. It may also be helpful if you use the Fujifilm wide-angle adapter, but it may also require its own lens profile.

SUGGESTION to Adobe's Eric Chan:

From the limited Fujifilm X100s image samples reviewed it appears Adobe has done a very good job of applying the in-camera JPEG corrections to the RAF raw image conversion. It would be extremely helpful if Adobe would list the supported camera lenses that use "automatic" lens corrections, including what is applied. I suggest adding this to the 'Lens Profile Support' list (and other places?):

http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/multi/lens-profile-support-lightroom-4.html

Thank You,

Todd Shaner

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 04, 2013

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trshaner:

Thanks for your post.  I just did the comparison myself with Raw Digger and Lightroom.  It's interesting that Eric says that Lightroom is doing some distortion correction on X100s raws because I can't see it in comparison to the Raw Digger output.

I like the suggestion of modifying the correction profile sans vignetting correction for use when I definitely want less distortion.

I'd still like to hear what Eric has to say about our findings.  Hopefully he will check back to see how this thread is progressing.

And I agree that the list of supported hardware would be much better if it listed what specifically was being corrected, similar to what DXO does on their site (which is very extensive and goes far beyond lens corrections).

Thanks again.

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Adobe Employee ,
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Folks, I will review with our team how we can better document the automatic lens corrections.  I understand and agree the current situation can be greatly confusing for users.  FWIW, the current situation (where we don't publicly document which models have corrections automatically applied) was a deliberate choice we made, for non-technical reasons -- it is a somewhat delicate topic.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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A guess, which I wouldn’t expect anyone from Adobe to confirm with any specificity, about a reason for some of the delicacy would be that for Adobe to get camera-manufacturer information about raw conversions and perhaps specifics about the lens distortion characteristics of a particular camera, at least in the past, Adobe may need to agree to not disclose that the lens distortions are being corrected in return for the manufacturer’s assistance. This allows the camera manufacturer to pretend their camera produces perfect images when there is in reality a lot of problems. Aren’t most, even high-end cameras, marketed for the quality of in-camera JPGs they can produce in camera, not how well the raw data is, even if some of us deal exclusively with the raw data and could care less about how well the camera JPGs look.

I can imagine four possibilities for lens profile corrections being used:

1) Available, can be manually controlled

2) Always On, no agreement with camera manufacturer to keep things secret

3) Always On, agreement to keep this fact secret

4) Unavailable

Right now, to avoid giving enough information to break an agreement for scenario #3, Adobe has lumped #2, #3 and #4 together, so the Always On situations appear the same as Unavailable, which is confusing to some of us, and giving the negative idea that Adobe isn’t providing lens profile support when in fact they are.

It seems like Adobe could at least disclose that lens profile corrections were always being applied when no agreement was in place for keeping this fact a secret (32), but they’d still have to lump #3 and #4 together, which would be misleading, perhaps more so than now, but would matter to less people, because at least the people in scenario #2 would have information about the corrections always being applied.

It would be slightly less confusing if Adobe would at least disclose that some cameras had lens profiles always being applied even if they cannot tell us which ones—a footnote in the lens-correction area that is either always displayed or whenever there is no applicable lens profile found. Of course that might generate questions about why some cameras have lens profiles always applied and Adobe wouldn’t be able to answer for the same reasons Eric is being unspecific, now.

Maybe there are no legal agreements but someone at Adobe game their word not to disclose and that reputation would also be important to keep intact.

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Sep 04, 2013 0
Community Beginner ,
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Eric,

Do you agree that Lightroom/ACR is, in fact, not correcting X100s lens distortions to any noticeable degree?  If so, do you agree that trshaner's recommendation to apply the X100 profile minus the vignetting correction would offer the most complete corrections? And if I use this method do I then need to enable "Remove Chromatic Aberration"?  Is there any reason, from an image quality standpoint, that one should not use the X100 profile sans vignetting correction with X100s raw files?

The more I read this thread (and others elsewhere) the more I am confused as to what is really going on with this whole issue.  If the X100 profile without the extra vignetting correction works well with the X100s (seems to to me, but I would love to hear why it shouldnt be used if there is a reason) why not just create an X100s profile based on the X100 profile and make it available?

The mystery is killing me.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
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I'm not sure you will get a response from Eric Chan for the reasons ssprengel listed in post #26.

Vignetting and rectilinear distortion correction to make your digital camera images "100% perfect" is generally unnecessary and can even degrade the image quality.

Distortion Correction Cons

1) Crops the image to maintain straight image borders–You lose  the image peripheral area that is corrected. Wide and ultra-wide zoom lenses generally have significant barrel distortion. Applying 100% correction "effectively" increase the focal length, which means that expensive 12-24mm zoom lens may provide something closer to a 14-26mm lens.

2) Wide angle lenses generally exhibit barrel type distortion, which actually helps to reduce corner and edge "stretching." By correcting this distortion to make it 100% "geometrically correct" the elongation will become more noticeable. In fact there is software available that can apply "non-rectilinear correction" (volume anamorphosis) to wide angle images to remove some of the elongation. This "added distortion" can actually improve certain images (i.e. people pictures). Good information here:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/4516863#4516863

As Eric outlined at the above post you can simply use the 'Manual' Lens Corrections Distortion slider to add barrel distortion.

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/correct_stretching_effect_from_an_ultra_wide_a...

Vignetting Correction Cons

1) Most people are accustomed to seeing some vignetting in photographs and in fact vignetting is sometimes "added" to images to focus attention on the central subject.

2) Wide and ultra-wide angle lenses usually exhibit significant vignetting especially at wide apertures, which can be as much as -3EV. You will need to apply +3EV of exposure compensation in the extreme corners to achieve 100% vignetting correction. This will significantly raise shadow noise and can also reduce image quality due to lens defects such as astigmatism, and coma.

So what should you do with your FinePix X100s raw images? See 'SUGGESTION to the OP' in my post #23...no sense retyping it here.

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Sep 05, 2013 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2013

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This camera has a fixed prime lens 35mm. If the camera manufacturer is not making lens correction in producing the jpeg then it is so by design. There should be little if any correction necessary.

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.7: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.2, Ps 21.2.4, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Sep 03, 2013 0
New Here ,
Jan 06, 2015

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Have there been any updates on this matter? I've got an X100T and similar to the posts above, I don't know if the corrections are being applied automatically or not. If so, and I turn on "Enable Profile Corrections" then presumably I'm doubling-up on my corrections. I'll have to try the white-wall and repeating-pattern experiments to see if I can visually make out any distortion after a plain vanilla import. But if someone's already figured out the answer then you could save me some trouble.

I'm on Lightroom 5.7.1.

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Jan 06, 2015 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 06, 2015

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Open your images in something like RawTherapee which doesn’t apply any lens corrections and see if the distortion is different than what you see in LR.

http://www.rawtherapee.com/

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Jan 06, 2015 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 06, 2015

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The best test to see if Lightroom is carrying out the lens corrections required by Fuji Film is to do a conversion with Lightroom and compare it with the JPEG output by your camera model.

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.7: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.2, Ps 21.2.4, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Jan 06, 2015 0