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Lightroom 5 ICC profiles clipped shadows under OSX

Dec 27, 2013

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Hi, I've just found a really bad issue occurring in Lr 5 (but also in all other Lightroom versions) under Mac OSX 10.9 with a calibrated monitor: dark shadows (from a value of 20 to 0) are all clipped (pure black with no detail and no textures) while the histogram remains ok, indicating NO clipped shadows at all. This issue afflics also ACR.

Photoshop for now is the only software under MAC that reproduces dark shadows correctly: Library Module shows a bit darker and shifted shadows than Ps but acceptable, Develop Module is really bad showing brutally clipped shadows (but you work in the Develop Module right?!).

The same problem occurred also in OSX 10.8 but it was related only to LUT profiles, creating a Matrix based profile problems were solved.

Now the issue occurs with both Matrix and LUT profiles, v2 and v4. There's no apparent way to make Lr working right.

Under Windows no problems at all: Bridge, Photoshop, ACR, Lr (Library Module and Develop Module) show the same correct NOT clipped shadows.

I tested 8 different Mac running 10.9 with different GPU, different monitors, different profiling Softwares (Color Eyes Display Pro, Eizo Color Navigator, BasICC Color, i1 Profiler). Same results.

I tried to change the gamma value (2.2, sRGB, L*) problems remain. I tried to change ICC version (v2, v4) problems reamain. I tried to change profile type (LUT, MATRIX) problems remain.

How can a photographer work professionally on RAW images if shadows are bad reproduced?

Why Photoshop can reproduce shadows correctly while Lr isn't able to do that?

Why this happens only on a Mac enviroment?

Is Lr based on ColorSync (that can't handle profiles correctly) while Ps isn't (because it can handle and it has no problem)?

Please Adobe, FIX IT for all professional photographers, we can’t use Lr for serious works under Mac.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

Hi Folks,

We have up-leveled this issue, identified the source and we are currently testing a solution. We will provide more information as it becomes available.

Kelly C.

Lightroom QE

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Lightroom 5 ICC profiles clipped shadows under OSX

Dec 27, 2013

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Hi, I've just found a really bad issue occurring in Lr 5 (but also in all other Lightroom versions) under Mac OSX 10.9 with a calibrated monitor: dark shadows (from a value of 20 to 0) are all clipped (pure black with no detail and no textures) while the histogram remains ok, indicating NO clipped shadows at all. This issue afflics also ACR.

Photoshop for now is the only software under MAC that reproduces dark shadows correctly: Library Module shows a bit darker and shifted shadows than Ps but acceptable, Develop Module is really bad showing brutally clipped shadows (but you work in the Develop Module right?!).

The same problem occurred also in OSX 10.8 but it was related only to LUT profiles, creating a Matrix based profile problems were solved.

Now the issue occurs with both Matrix and LUT profiles, v2 and v4. There's no apparent way to make Lr working right.

Under Windows no problems at all: Bridge, Photoshop, ACR, Lr (Library Module and Develop Module) show the same correct NOT clipped shadows.

I tested 8 different Mac running 10.9 with different GPU, different monitors, different profiling Softwares (Color Eyes Display Pro, Eizo Color Navigator, BasICC Color, i1 Profiler). Same results.

I tried to change the gamma value (2.2, sRGB, L*) problems remain. I tried to change ICC version (v2, v4) problems reamain. I tried to change profile type (LUT, MATRIX) problems remain.

How can a photographer work professionally on RAW images if shadows are bad reproduced?

Why Photoshop can reproduce shadows correctly while Lr isn't able to do that?

Why this happens only on a Mac enviroment?

Is Lr based on ColorSync (that can't handle profiles correctly) while Ps isn't (because it can handle and it has no problem)?

Please Adobe, FIX IT for all professional photographers, we can’t use Lr for serious works under Mac.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

Hi Folks,

We have up-leveled this issue, identified the source and we are currently testing a solution. We will provide more information as it becomes available.

Kelly C.

Lightroom QE

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Dec 27, 2013

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Here is a 100% Crop of a photograph in Lr and Ps.

100%-Crop-Clipped-Shadows-LR.jpg

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 27, 2013

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What file types exhibit this problem? Can you post one  to a file download site?

Adobe has indicated there are no issues with Mavericks OS X 10.9 when running the latest builds of CC and CS6 apps

http://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/global/mac-os-mavericks-compatability.html?PID=7221644

Are you running LR5.3 Final?

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=5692

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Dec 28, 2013

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Adobe is wrong.

Every file type exhibits this problem (jpg, tiff, raw), 16 bit and 8 bit with every color profile (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ProPhoto).

Yes I am running 5.3 final and the other 8 Macs I tested were running 5.3 final too.

Here is  an example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kl494m76h9mhfhf/_E0R3160.jpg

Look at the rocks in the shadows on the right side of the waterfall (is the same example I posted here before), they are really different if opened in PS or between Library Module and Develop Module.

Every image that contains shadows from a value of 20 to 0 is right for the issue...

Some photos are really different when you open them into Ps or when you switch between the Library Module and the Develop Module (try taking night shots with lots of shadows with a value < 20 ).

You must have created a monitor profile with any of the profiling softwares on the market and you will see clearly the problem.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 28, 2013

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As you have already mentioned the issue does not occur on Windows systems. When I compare the image in LR5.3 and PS CS6 on my Windows 7 system they are identical.

First suspect would be the Graphics drivers and it looks like there is an OS X 10.9.1 update that addresses graphics driver issues:

http://www.tonymacx86.com/400-os-x-10-9-1-update.html

...and an OS X 10.9.2 update in the works that also includes graphics drivers updates:

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/12/19/apple-seeds-first-os-x-10-9-2-build-to-developers/

You can report this as a problem here:

http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family

There is nothing currently posted here with your issue.

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Dec 28, 2013

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Dec 29, 2013

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well, have to wait for 10.9.2 and hope..?

..but if l software-calibrate the Eizo monitor CG 19 with i1Profiler, the LR previews working fine then, strange...

seems LR doesnt recognise the profile from Eizo Color Navigator 5.4.5

im on an mac pro 5.1

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Dec 29, 2013

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Guys, EVERY MAC running Mavericks just suffer this issue: it happens both on ATI equipped Mac and Intel ones regardless of the monitor installed. I don't think it's a driver relate problem.

Yes, on Windows images are identical.

Adobe should reprogram Lightroom 5 for Mac to solve this issue: no professional use of it for now. Really disappointing...

What should I tell to my Lr class students? "Well guys shadows are all wrong if you use Mavericks"? No big deal...

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

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Dec 29, 2013

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If you are running Mountain Lion then Lr doesn't manage LUT profiles (profiles created by Eizo Color Navigator), if you use i1 Profiler which creates a Matrix based one everything would be fine.

If you are running Mavericks there's no way to make Lr working properly.

You shouldn't use i1 Profiler to calibrate your Eizo CG. You should download the latest Eizo Color Navigator software v 6.4.6.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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Finn, would you mind testing something for me - download a trial of BasICColor Display and try profiling using that, with it set to Matrix and the v4 box UNchecked. 

I can't repro the problem on my EIZO, which means there must be something different between our machines or profiles. 

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Dec 29, 2013

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thank you Victoria, genious 🙂

look in the shadows in the screenshot 100% crop:

cal.jpg

the ugly dark shadows are gone. LR vs PS are perfect now

I am still a little confused:  with  Basiccolor: does the hardware calibration work even in "Matrix" modus?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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Excellent. Yes, hardware calibration still works with matrix profiles.

You could also check the EIZO software update that Max mentioned - hopefully that will give you the same result as BasICColor.

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Dec 29, 2013

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Max, thank you for starting the tread

I tried 6.4.6 version, but Eizo have not made support for CG19 monitor, so it doesnt work at all

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Dec 29, 2013

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well, others have to try version 6.4.6, didnt work on my monitor..

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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I don't see this problem using LR 5.3 on Mac OS 10.9.1. Calibrated to a v2 profile using a simple Spyder3Pro. Must be quite specific to the calibration solution. Weird that it would be OS dependent. Lightroom supposedly uses the Adobe Color Engine which should be the exact same code as is used in Photoshop so it is strange that there would be a difference but then again the LUT v4 ICC profile problem has been a very long standing one that Photoshop never had. I even took screenshots from the display of your file in Lightroom and PS and overlaid them and they are virtually the same even when boosted using a Curves adjustment layer to show the shadow area more clearly. There are some very minute differences as the Library module displays previews from a jpeg preview instead of the orginal so it is recompressed.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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OK, just tried and compared the Develop module with PS CC and the Develop module definately has darker shadows than PS. Not as extreme as you describe but indeed shadows do get darkened (doesn't look blocked but they are indeed somewhat darker). Not good.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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Try the Black Level test pattern at Lagom:

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/img/blacktest.png

Right-click on the image and Save it. No profile is assigned, but it's sRGB. Inside LR I can see the patches all the way down to patch Level 1.

Check it in both the Library and Develop modules and inside PS.

On my Windows 7 system with LR5.3.

Black Level Test pattern.jpg

Message was edited by: trshaner Added screenshot

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 29, 2013

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Yeah that confirms it. With that black level patch image in Library it looks basically identical to Photoshop but when I switch to Develop all the darker patches turn mutch darker. You see darkening in patches all the way to 15. 20 seems unaffected. Clearly a bug. Very disconcerting. 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 30, 2013

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I can see Library being lighter, but Develop is almost identical to PS here, as I'd expect. 

BUT I can reproduce the problem with Max's profile.  I'm flagging it up for the team (note that Adobe is closed at the moment, so there may be a delay)

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Dec 30, 2013

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I can confirm develop is little darker than library, even after sucessfull calibration with basiCColor.

But Im now sure after checking 20 times, PS is more identical to library here

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 30, 2013

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You can measure the screen values to determine the actual difference.

Do two screen captures in LR (Library and Develop) with the Lagom downloaded blacktest.png file.

1) Paste or open each screen capture in PS and 'Assign Profile' with your current monitor profile.

2) Then 'Convert to Profile' using sRGB profile Destination Color Space.

3) Open the original Lagom downloaded blacktest.png file in PS (values are 100% correct).

Use the PS Eydropper tool with Sample Size of 11x11 tool to measure the "average" patch RGB values.

On my Windows 7 system the patch difference between the LR Library and Develop screen captures is no more than ±1 level, with the Library module about 1 level lower (i.e. darker) on some patches. This is a very small difference, which was only visible using an AB overlay comparison in PS.

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Jan 17, 2014

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I can't obtain a right profile even with Basiccolor.

It isn't an Eizo related problem, because I have the same issue on my MBP 13" and 15" LCD Retina, calibrated with ColorEyes and I1 profiler.

Please if you have a macbook pro just try to calibrate and see if the issue shows up.

Note that only images with dark shadows are affected, some more some less.

Waiting for news. Using windows now, where everithing works right.

Ps: I'm asking myself if it'd be a device problem. Any spider4 user opinion?

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Jan 18, 2014

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Ok, tried to calibrate an eizo CG 246 with its own integrated calibrator and the same issue shows up.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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I've tried Spyder3 and 4 and the issue shows up too. Subtle if you don't look for it and only in Develop. Again, Photoshop CC and other color managed programs are fine. Clearly a bug in Lightroom that only shows up on Mavericks for some strange reason. Hope Adobe fixes this soon as it is a problem if you want your deep shadows to be just right.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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There are numerous posts concerning display issues after upgrading to Mavericks OS X 10.9 (see below). After reading these posts it appears Apple has done something to the graphics drivers that raises the color saturation level and increases contrast. Why LR has this issue and PS doesn't is still a mystery. My guess is that PS isn't affected because it's using Open GL for creating the display output data (LR does not use Open GL). It's pretty clear to me this is an Apple OS X issue and not LR.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/23495418#23495418

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/10/22/225215/os-x-109-mavericks-review

"Basically, the sRGB spec is no longer sRGB, and colour managed applications that use ColorSync are completely hosed. Almost everything is more saturated then it should be. Towers of bug reports have been filed on this alone and absolutely nobody has received a response from Apple, which makes me think it's some retarded "stylistic choice" of theirs to literally try and make the OS "look better" (it doesn't)."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1651041

"A lot of icons in and throughout Mavericks (including icons in the Finder and icons in System Preferences) are rendering "darker" then normal. You can actually screenshot this and it'll show up. I've attached an example of this from the iTunes icon- 10.9 is on the right, 10.8 is on the left."

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1649988&highlight=saturation

"Yes, they have adjusted the default saturation level. This seems hard coded as but I actually prefer it as it makes thing "pop" more."

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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OS X 10.9 users who also have Photoshop - could you try with OpenGL turned off? That should return Photoshop to the same modus operandi as Lightroom. I think trshaners theory sounds very plausible.

Under Windows all color management is performed by the application code (unless farmed out to the GPU), but under OS X the actual conversion is handed over to ColorSync (for which there is no equivalent in Windows). So I think this could explain it all.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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Nothing changes in the display in PS CC when you turn off OpenGL. The shadows stay the same. I even made sure to restart Photoshop between changing settings. The problems mentioned above were an issue with the default profile Apple included in Mavericks for some displays. This was not a problem for the preponderance of people and also not a problem if you calibrate yourself.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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So it's still a mystery why LR has the issue and PS doesn't. What about other color managed applications or viewers, do they exhibit the issue?

Since the differences observed appear to be subjective try downloading the blacktest.png at the link in post #16. Then follow the instructions in post #20 to measure the actual screen patch values for each application. Do a screen capture with your OS X 10.9 system using LR, PS and at least one other color manged app or viewer and compare the darkest patch values in question. On my Windows 7 system the patches are virtually identical in all applications, including LR Library and Develop.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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OK. Just did this. In a screenshot from Library (shift-command-3), after conversion to sRGB, the values are identical to the original (i.e the numbers in the patches correspond to the eye-dropper values). In Develop,

patch = eye dropper value

1 = 0

2 = 0

3 = 1

4 = 2

5 = 3

6 = 3

7 = 3

8 = 4

9 = 4

10 = 4

11 = 5

12 = 6

13 = 7

14 = 10

15 = 11

20 = 19

25 = 25

30 = 30

40 = 49

255 = 255

So this is a major problem. Profile from Spyder 3 Pro. Standard icc v2 profile. I did the same thing on a Mac running 10.8 and there the problem does not show up. It is only Lightroom on Mavericks as far as I can tell that has the problem. Interestingly, these values appear quite similar to the sRGB tone curve and indeed if instead of converting to sRGB, I assign sRGB, the values are close (but one too high in many cases) to normal. Perhaps Lightroom is querying the operating system for the display profile and gets the (erroneous) answer that it is sRGB because of a bug in Mavericks. That would result in a result like this.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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Looked at a few other applications, and amazingly, Aperture has the problem too (had to convert the png to a RGB tiff to import into Aperture). This is clearly a Mavericks bug. If you care about your color, do not upgrade your Mac to Mavericks yet!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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Thank you Jao for testing and confirming this is a Mavericks OS X issue.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Jan 18, 2014

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I submitted a bug report to Apple.

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Jan 19, 2014

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Ok guys, we're collecting many opinions that prove the problem exists and is quite frequent. Adobe can't ignore the issue anymore.

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Jan 19, 2014

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Photoshop CC has also some problems when it comes to render shadows under Mac OSX if the OpenGL option is ON and set to other than Basic: bad luminosity and color cast.

I found this issue on Intel HD4000 based Macs, I ignore others.

The right way to checking this issue is the following:

- Set OpenGL option ON and set it to Advanced

- Open a photograph with dark shadows

- Zoom at least 66% on the dark zone

- Go to Edit=>Color Settings and enable advanced interface

- Set Desaturate Monitor to 1%

- Looking at the shadow zone of the photo check and uncheck Desaturate Monitor

If the shadows change ( sometimes changes are subtle sometimes heavy) you have my same issue.

I fixed it setting OpenGL to basic.

Adobe should fix that also... But I repeat again: this

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Jan 19, 2014

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But I repeat again: this issue shows up on HD4000 based macs (mabook pro and mac mini), I really don't know if it happens also on ati or nvidia based ones

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Feb 16, 2014

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Exact same issue here. I just add FYI that shadows get back to normal in Develop when Soft Proofing is ON (both sRGB and AdobeRGB).

Darker shadows in LR Develop module with Soft Proofing OFF only, not in Library (and not in Photoshop and apparently not in Camera RAW as well)

Mavericks 10.9.1

Dell series U2713H Monitor with matrix profile done by i1Pro2+i1Profiler

Any news?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 16, 2014

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The bug report I put in was closed as an external bug. That means they've checked into it and confirmed that it's a bug that Apple need to fix (and I assume reported it to Apple too).

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 16, 2014

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Thanks Victoria. I reported it to Apple through my developer account. Haven’t heard anything from them. They’re more likely to respond to Adobe if they have submitted a report anyway. Hopefully this will get fixed in the upcoming OS X update but I haven’t had time to check into that.

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Feb 18, 2014

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Hi all, just to put in my 20 cents worth.

I'm having a similar issue with my MacBook Pro with Retina Display. But I haven't updated the Osx to Mavericks. My OS X is 10.8.5 build 12f45 running an Nvidia GT 650 1024 MB.

I got my Mac a few months ago but I've been relying on my Windows Based laptop to process my Raw files until recently. I shoot time lapses and I've noticed that when I work in Lightroom 5 i'll edit and export  the 400+ Raw frames in a sequence. Only to find they've been exported lighter that they appear in Lightroom's Develop Module when compiled into a QuickTime movie.

I thought it was my screen calibration that I've done with Spyder Pro 4. But now that I've come across this forum thread I can see I'm not alone. So until it's fixed I'll just have to use Lightroom 5 on my Windows Laptop (which is a shame as the Mac is faster) and then just use the Mac to edit my Time Lapse video clips.

I thought it might help as  I haven't upgraded to Mavericks yet.

Here's hoping they fix the issue and soon!

Btw thanks for everyone that's posted, it's been helpful.

Message was edited by: Phoenixomen

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 18, 2014

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Phoenixomen, I am guessing that your QuickTime export issue us due to something else as I tested on 10.8 and the bug is not there. Movie export from Lightroom is just not very good and indeed tends to end up with incorrect gamma depending on which player you use to play the exported movies. What you should do is run the exported time lapse through handbrake (Google for it, it is awesome) and you'll see the gamma corrected. It will also cut down the size of the file by many times as the movie export from Lightroom is really poorly done and you can compress the files by a factor of 4 without losing quality. This is especially true for time lapses. Also, the windows and Mac versions of Lightroom use the exact same compression codec so you won't see a difference. In my experience they output the exact same file for the same setting and I'd still run them through handbrake.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 18, 2014

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I had a similar problem with video on my WIndows 7 system where blacks were washed out. It was an issue with the Nvdia graphics driver video color settings under 'Advanced.' The default settings is 'Limted (16-235)' and changing it to 'Full (0-255) corrected the issue:

Movie Blacks Light - Video Driver.jpg

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Feb 19, 2014

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Hi, thanks for the info on Handbrake. I'll definitely check it out.

I should have mentioned that I don't use Lightroom to export my time lapse clips.  Use QuickTime Pro to compile and export.

Not that makes any difference I guess. But thanks for replying. 🙂

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Feb 19, 2014

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Thanks for the info on the Nvidia settings on the Windows system.

One thing I did notice when I compiled the same image sequence created in Lightroom on my MacBook Pro but using my Windows based QuickTime Pro the gamma or the shadows seemed right.

But playing back on my Windows system the QuickTime export that I had created originally on the Mac using the very same images still seemed to be too light in the shadows. I should mention that I was using Windows Media player to play back the exported videos.

Sounds confusing and I apologize but it now leaves me wondering how do I know what is the correct final output? I've used Spyder pro 4 to calibrate both the MacBook Pro and my Windows 8.1 laptop. They both have Nvidia graphics.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 19, 2014

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If you do a Google search on Quicktime Gamma Shift it pulls up 145,000 matches. Here's the first one:

http://www.videocopilot.net/blog/2008/06/fix-quicktime-gamma-shift/

The above "fix" apparently prevents streaming the file, so this may not be a suitable solution. What video file format are you exporting from QT Pro?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 19, 2014

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Yeah this is probably the well known quicktime gamma bug. It will rear its

ugly head depending on which codec you use. This is why running the file

through handbrake even after quicktime pro is a good idea as it will fix

that problem too.

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Feb 22, 2014

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Hi again, sorry for the late response. Part of living on the road.

I usually export to H.264. At the risk of sounding like a noob as I could very well be worrying about nothing. I usually preview my Lightroom enhanced images by using Quicktime to export them to H.264 .Mov format just to see how it looks in regards to flicker and whether any adjustment created noticeable image noise particularly with star time lapses. Then if I'm happy I'll use Quicktime to create a lossess "SAVEDAS" .Mov file at the original photographic resolution for editing in Premiere Pro CC.

The link you put up is showing what I'm getting with H.264 codec. I'm a perfectionist and when I see a difference between my Mac and Windows based Laptop in regrads to brightness, colour saturation I freak out a little. As I'm uploading to Youtube and want to make sure what I upload is what I see when my image editing is finished at the Lightroom export stage.

Many thanks for your help, you've pointed me in the right direction. I'm learning something new everyday!

Thanks for taking the time to help me out. Thanks again.

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Feb 27, 2014

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Talking again about Lightroom and ICC profiles, just installed OSX 10.9.2 and nothing has changed: Develop module is still showing bad clipped shadows.

Has anyone news about Lr 5.4 upgrade? Will that relase solve the issue?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Feb 27, 2014

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Max, just so you are aware this is a User to User forum so the response you get here are for the most part from users like yourself.

Q. Has anyone news about Lr 5.4 upgrade?

A. A release candidate for ACR 8.4 was released about one week ago and since LR releases are issued on or around the same time it is expected soon. Adobe does not usually make anouncements about pending releases and any one here who may know most likely are restricted by NDA.

Q.Will that relase solve the issue?

A. Don't know.

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.4: Lightroom Classic 9.2.1, Lightroom (cloud-based) 3.2.1, Photoshop, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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May 27, 2014

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I am seeing this black clipping issue on LR 5.3 under Mavericks 10.9.2. Prints made 6 months ago are now printing too dark in the blacks. Ironically, my current prints are looking more contrasty and more saturated than my monitor, an about face from normal, where the monitor used to have more contrast and saturation than the prints. What is the current solution? Which software is the most likely culprit? Thanks.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 27, 2014

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I haven't seen a problem with prints however the issue is likely a bug in Mavericks, not Lightroom. Aperture, Preview, Safari, etc. all have the same problem in color management. Lightroom only has the problem in Develop. Photoshop shows the deep blacks OK, because it doesn't use the operating system color management routines. We can only complain to Apple. They changed something with 10.9.3 that subtly changes the behavior, however it is still showing deep blacks wrong. I submitted a bug report however haven't gotten any feedback. I am hoping Adobe could have more clout but I have no clue whether they reported the nasty bug.

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Aug 09, 2014

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(anybody tried this:)

use "proof" function in Lightroom and apply the monitor Icc profile as "proof"

suddenly LR shows picture perfect and you can easely see the difference (shadow clipping) with "proof" checked on/off


cant be anything wrong with ICC profile since you can "proof" it ?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 09, 2014

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Yeah I discovered that too. Apparently turning on proof forces Lightroom to use Adobe's color management routine instead of Apple's, avoiding the problem. It does slow down develop though. See here: Jao's photo blog: Serious color management bug in Mac OS 10.9 "Mavericks"

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Aug 09, 2014

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nice blog you have

sound crazy, but

perhaps mac are confused with two libraries / two colorsync folders?

factory display profile are in LIbrary/colorsync/profiles...etc.

current profile are in users/myname/library/colorsync/profiles....etc

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 09, 2014

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Thanks,

I don't think that's the issue. Mac OS X until 10.8 did this just fine. In 10.9 it does use the correct profile. It just does something wrong with the gamma curve. The bug was introduced with 10.9 Mavericks. It is also present in the Yosemite beta. You even get the problem when you only use the factory profile with a Mavericks machine out of the box and using iPhoto or preview. There is no fix except doing the soft proof. The problem is present for every single type of calibration hardware that I have tested. It's curious that this is not more widely known. It is quite subtle though and my guess is that even many seasoned pros don't notice this problem as many might not be focused on the deepest shadows and Photoshop doesn't have the problem anyway and you only run into this in Lightroom Develop and in Aperture. I have submitted a bug report to Apple but they have not acted on it yet. I even sent Tim an email.

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Aug 09, 2014

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its strange that not more people doesnt seem to notice this problem..

perhaps its because Lighroom has default very "black" design, mostly black with some middle greys, if you use white background its easier to notice it

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 10, 2014

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Jao vdL wrote:

It's curious that this is not more widely known.

Indeed. There have been a couple of threads on the Luminous Landscape forum which I immediately connected to this; and I in some of them I have tried to direct people to this thread. But there seems to be a reluctance to accept that there could be anything "wrong" with Apple's color management, so it all fizzled out into nothing.

Which is a shame, because it won't get fixed unless people put their finger on it and report it.

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Aug 10, 2014

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I cant use Lightroom anymore because of this strange issue, have to go "back" to Bridge and ACR

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 10, 2014

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I generated some further quantification of this problem. It is not pretty. Jao's photo blog: Further quantification of the Mavericks color management problem. Hopefully somebody at Apple will finally pick up on this.

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Aug 14, 2014

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Tried Yosemite Beta 1. Same issue.

OSX Preview works correctly while Lr is still buggy. I was thinking: why Lightroom uses OSX libraries for color management? Why doesn't it have an independent color management engine? The solution seems so simple....

Can Windows handle LUT ICC profiles? It seems it can't. If you open a photo in Windows Preview you can see totally wrong shadows (like in Lightroom on OSX Mavericks), but on Windows platform Lightroom works correctly. I can't understand.

Does Lightroom Pc version have an independent color management system unlike the Mac version one?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 14, 2014

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Max_Ramuschi wrote:

Does Lightroom Pc version have an independent color management system unlike the Mac version one?

I believe that is the case. The way I understand it (not having a degree in computer science), is that in Mac OSX, color management is handed over to Apple's ColorSync. On Windows there is no equivalent to ColorSync, so it's done by the application using the Adobe Color Engine (sort of a separate module). I could be wrong, information about this is hard to find.

In Photoshop there is an added complication with the OpenGL engine, which in turn takes over display color management - unless Photoshop is set to operate in "Basic" mode.

Can Windows handle LUT ICC profiles?

As per above, Windows doesn't do any color management, it's all done by the application. All Windows does is make the profiles available for the application. This includes the "native" Windows apps - some are color managed, others not.

So it could well be that some applications don't handle LUT profiles. I have Eizo ColorNavigator set to make LUT profiles (in Windows 7), and haven't seen problems anywhere with that. I certainly don't see any black clipping (which I have specifically been looking for lately, for other unrelated reasons).

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Aug 30, 2014

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I started using Windows 8.1 two weeks ago, here is the sad truth (sad for Mac users obviously - me included):

- Yes Windows has its own Color Management System

- Yes It can handle LUT and Matrix Profile way better than OSX, Windows Preview is color managed and it shows perfect colors.

- Yes Lightroom works great: no shadows clipped, no differences* of colors and shadows between Library and Develop (on Windows platform OS Preview, Bridge, ACR, Lightroom, Photoshop show matching colors and shadows).

* the 90% of photos I checked were indistinguishable between Library and Develop. The 10% shows lighter shadows in Develop Module but the difference is really subtle (absolutely negligible).


Personally I don't like Windows OS for its long time characteristic (drivers conflict, reset, random program exits, out of memory messages etc - on Windows 8.1 all this happens less fequently indeed), so I hope Apple put a fix in Yosemite... If you are trying the beta version and have any news please write them here.


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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 30, 2014

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Max_Ramuschi wrote:

- Yes Windows has its own Color Management System

If you're referring to WCS it's mainly an empty framework just sitting there. It's all ready, but not put to any use yet. In Windows all color management is performed by the applications, not the OS.

Personally I think the current situation is a good one. Windows' hands-off policy makes troubleshooting much easier, and it removes one potential source for bugs.

Max_Ramuschi wrote:

Personally I don't like Windows OS for its long time characteristic (drivers conflict, reset, random program exits, out of memory messages

I can see why some people would prefer OS X over Windows, but that's the wrong reason. That was true in Windows 98 and ME, but from NT/2000 onwards Windows has been rock solid. Even Vista was far better than its reputation. I never see any of those things, never have, and those who do must have very poorly set up systems.

A more valid reason is that the Win 8 interface is IMO ugly and crude. Yes, that matters when I'm looking at it all day. I'm sticking with 7 for as long as possible. They did it right there.

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Aug 30, 2014

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Rock solid? Not really: Win 8.1 update 1 has a good interface, but in two weeks I had several Graphic card reset, the bluetooth driver cause iTunes exit issue, Photoshop out of memory (same memory of my mac, same operation, same photos) etc, on my DELL Mobile 4800 Workstation (no poor components).

It could be an empty framework but does just work as Colorsync (way better ideed): you can load LUT profile into your Graphic card using Windows color management (not third party softwares), Windows own system preview is color managed and Photoshop can use WCS to do color compensation... I don't want more. Ok the desktop and icons aren't color managed, but even OSX desktop isn't managed (from Mountain Lion), besides no color managed application won't work in OSX just as in Win (some browser for example).

Everyone has his own opinion: for me Win for now is the right platform to work with. Win has taken a step forward, OSX some backwards (from ML).

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 18, 2014

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Small update. Apple brought out 10.9.5. This seems to fix the clipped shadows problem in every app except Lightroom! Aperture, preview, iPhoto, etc. now all work fine, except for Lightroom Develop. Strange.

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Sep 26, 2014

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Well, I have Yosemite beta installed on my Mac and the issue is still there....

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Sep 26, 2014

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Adobe says it's an OSX issue and won't do anything, Apple doesn't care at all about this problem (maybe they're too busy working on an OSX instant messaging App or new effects for Photo Booth.......). Good times for pro users.....

I can't stand using Win, but I can't go back to OSX until things get fixed. Last OSX with a serious color management was Lion 10.7 (desktop, dock, icons, preview were all color managed and no issue with both LUT and Matrix profiles), but Apple won't let you go back installing an older OSX on recent computers.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 26, 2014

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The issue did get fixed in Aperture without an update to it just by a

system update, which makes me think that Adobe could probably fix it by

making sure to address the color management system the right way or by

simply using their own color management routines in Develop.

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Max_Ramuschi <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

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Sep 28, 2014

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I agree.

I was thinking about this fact: why a program that suks like Adobe Bridge can handle correctly Matrix and LUT profiles (even in Mavericks) and shows rigth previews (shadows, colors, everything) while Lr, which should be a professional tool, does not?

Are we sure that this is an Apple bug?

We all know that Apple has done some steps back when it comes to color management (I think everyone wants back overall system color management - on wide gamut monitors there are some icons in the dock and on the desktop that hurt my eyes when I look at them - and a decent preview - seems it has been fixed right? -), but Adobe? They had been informed since Lr 5.2 and what did they do (now Lr is 5.6)?

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Sep 28, 2014

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Ok, waiting for Yosemite final release, I switched back to Mountain Lion (the latest consistent OSX to work with - with compromises).

Here what it happens: as mentioned earlier in this thread, when you use a Matrix based profile, Library Module, Develop and Photoshop show perfect identical images; when you use LUT based profiles, Lightroom shows clipped shadows while Photoshop is perfect, but (I didn't remember this particular) in Mountain Lion, Library Module and Develop Module are always identical.

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