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LR Camera preset does not have any effect

New Here ,
May 10, 2020

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Dear community,

in LR Classic 9.2.1 I get accurate colors on the embedded DNG preview (image with the text "Embedded Preview" on bottom right, it is a digitized slide). When standard previews load, the colors are off and I get ugly greens (see the other image). 

 

In LR preferences, I have chosen the camera settings under preferences/presets/raw defaults but there is no effect, it seems that the Adobe Default preset loads, regardless of this setting.

This happens on my iMac AND on my Windows 10 PC.
The camera is a Sigma SD Quattro shooting DNGs.

 

Could u please help??

Thank u for ur time

IEK

 

{Moved from Lightroom Cloud to Lightroom Classic Forum by Moderator} 

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by DdeGannes | Adobe Community Professional

I just wish to make a final general comment in this thread. First some info on my understanding of what takes place.

1. Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom does not offer support for Raw files from the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. This means Adobe has not created any Adobe profiles nor any Camera matching profiles for this camera model.

2. Sigma SD Quattro has the ability to create a Raw DNG File and will write data to the file header which will reflect the shooting settings selected in the camera.

3. Adobe supports the DNG format so the files can be imported into Lightroom and will display an initial rendered file.

4. Lightroom, has a different rending process than Sigma, and may not be able to read or accurately apply all the info in the file header, so the rendered display may significantly differ from the Camera rendition.

5. The user will now need to make manual adjustments to create an acceptable rendition.

What am I missing here?

 

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LR Camera preset does not have any effect

New Here ,
May 10, 2020

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Dear community,

in LR Classic 9.2.1 I get accurate colors on the embedded DNG preview (image with the text "Embedded Preview" on bottom right, it is a digitized slide). When standard previews load, the colors are off and I get ugly greens (see the other image). 

 

In LR preferences, I have chosen the camera settings under preferences/presets/raw defaults but there is no effect, it seems that the Adobe Default preset loads, regardless of this setting.

This happens on my iMac AND on my Windows 10 PC.
The camera is a Sigma SD Quattro shooting DNGs.

 

Could u please help??

Thank u for ur time

IEK

 

{Moved from Lightroom Cloud to Lightroom Classic Forum by Moderator} 

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by DdeGannes | Adobe Community Professional

I just wish to make a final general comment in this thread. First some info on my understanding of what takes place.

1. Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom does not offer support for Raw files from the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. This means Adobe has not created any Adobe profiles nor any Camera matching profiles for this camera model.

2. Sigma SD Quattro has the ability to create a Raw DNG File and will write data to the file header which will reflect the shooting settings selected in the camera.

3. Adobe supports the DNG format so the files can be imported into Lightroom and will display an initial rendered file.

4. Lightroom, has a different rending process than Sigma, and may not be able to read or accurately apply all the info in the file header, so the rendered display may significantly differ from the Camera rendition.

5. The user will now need to make manual adjustments to create an acceptable rendition.

What am I missing here?

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 11, 2020

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Embedded previews are what the camera creates. Lightroom can use these previews temporarily, for quick culling and rating, for example. It cannot use them indefinitely, because these previews do not represent how Lightroom converts the image, but how the camera (using its built-in Sigma software) would. Eventually you will see the Lightroom generated preview, and if you do not like what you see, then it's up to you to choose different profiles and/or different edit settings until you do like what you see.

-- Johan W. Elzenga, http://www.johanfoto.com

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Explorer ,
May 11, 2020

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Might be helpful:

https://lightroomkillertips.com/customizing-camera-raw-defaults-in-lightroom-classic/

Regards | System: Win10 Pro, NEC 27", LRC 9.2.1, PS 2020 v21.1.2, Canon DSLR

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New Here ,
May 12, 2020

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Thank you so much! This is what I wanted to know! Now I get the concept.

I still dont understand why camera settings have been introduced, since one needs a profile anyway. Maybe the film simulations are meant by settings and not the color management that leads to the embedded preview.

I tried to simulate the embedded preview with a preset creation, but it is nearly impossible without heavy calibration. I am digitizing the slides with a 3000K light source and have set the WB in the camera to 3000K. I suspect, that outside of AWB the DNG embedded color management gets lost or is absent at that particular camera and it is only applied to the preview. 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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Is your camera the SD Quattro H? I cannot find any DNG format sample files for the SD Quattro.

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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New Here ,
May 12, 2020

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Dear Denis,

it is not the H, it's the SD Quattro. 

Here are two DNGs, a normal image with AWB and a digitized (part of a) 6x12 slide with manual WB at 3000K to match the light source.

The color management difference btw embedded preview colors and Auto settings is negligible for the digital image.

The difference for the slide is huge, import it with an embedded preview to see how it SHOULD look like. Then watch the greens get ugly when a 1:1 preview is calculated, also watch how the WB shifts (which is partly, but not 100% responsible for the ugly greens)!

 

Let me get extremely specific here with another LR related issue, I am banging my head on the wall for weeks. It is only relevant if someone exports TIFFs from Sigma raw X3Fs thru the Sigma PhotoPro software. I had to do this to get accurate color management, since LR does its own thing colorwise with manually White-Balanced DNGs from the Sigma SD Quattro.

 

As said, I am digitizing panoramic slides 6x12 cm with the 3000K light source. So I shoot 4x3 images for an HDR Panorama. Lightroom creates mushy colors on the HDR Pano image, which despite the color management issue mentioned previously, are not to be seen on indivudual images before stitching. 

Long story short: LR cannot color manage Sigma SD Quattro DNGs if they are manually white balanced and if one switches to TIFFs exported with amazing color accuracy from the Sigma PhotoPro editor, they are useless for HDR since the colors get mushy!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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Ok, I have the files I will look at them and compare with the one I have from the SD Quattro H.

Ok so the first screen capture is the Preview import display, the second the view after import. I see what you are referring to.

What is happening here Lightroom does not read and is not able to deal with all the special settings you may have applied in the Camera. Sorry about the pixilated preview it was too small for the screen capture.

Camera previewCamera previewLR default import Adobe StandardLR default import Adobe Standard

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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The only other thoughts I have is that Adobe Lightroom / Camera Raw does not have support for this Camera Model so they would not have created specific profiles for the camera neither Adobe normal profiles nor camera matching profiles.

The other challenge is you speak to "I get accurate colors on the embedded DNG preview", that is your Cameras rendition of the raw data. Johan has also pointed this out in his earlier post.

Copying slides can be a challenging task especially if they are dated from several years back, colors could have shifted, and you should have to make quite a bit of manual corrections. Three months ago I spent a few weeks scanning lots of negatives from the early 1980's.

A little try with your file, not really the best.

Screenshot 2020-05-12 at 3.26.23 PM.png 

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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New Here ,
May 12, 2020

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Thanks Denis, I appreciate your comments and time.

Did u use the calibration panel at all for this edit? Did u have to revert the WB back to 3000K?

 

These slides are ralatively recent with no color shifts, the particular one was shot on a dull day, but colors are accurate.

 

Let me please rephrase my thoughts in the form of a more general question: What checkboxes should be checked when one is creating a color profile in LR that intends to read the embedded color management of a DNG without affecting it?? Because thats the idea behind a DNG, that it carries an internal color profile, or not?

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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I am attaching the screen captures to show the sliders that I used on the previous picture. In the Color tab, I made adjustments to the green and blue colors. So you will see the Color tab in both images.

I cannot speak to your questions on the DNG format file as the camera models that I have used for the past 15 years have all been supported by Lightroom or other software that I use. There are pros and cons when using DNG and for me, the cons far outweigh the pros, just my choice. I am not sure how much info Sigma places in the DNG file header or if Lightroom is able to utilize all of it. In your case, my choice would be to use your camera's software to process the raw files from your camera. I normally use 3 sometimes 4 applications including the camera manufacturers software that can process my raw files. Sorry to digress.

Screenshot 2020-05-12 at 5.15.22 PM.pngScreenshot 2020-05-12 at 5.17.42 PM.png 

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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Quote "What checkboxes should be checked when one is creating a color profile in LR that intends to read the embedded color management of a DNG without affecting it??"

Adobe provides a free Profile Creator but you have to take a picture with your camera with a color chart target and then import the raw file into Lightroom and convert the file to DNG format. That DNG file can then be used to create a profile specifically for your camera. This requires Lightroom to already have support for your camera model. 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 12, 2020

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I just wish to make a final general comment in this thread. First some info on my understanding of what takes place.

1. Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom does not offer support for Raw files from the Sigma SD Quattro camera model. This means Adobe has not created any Adobe profiles nor any Camera matching profiles for this camera model.

2. Sigma SD Quattro has the ability to create a Raw DNG File and will write data to the file header which will reflect the shooting settings selected in the camera.

3. Adobe supports the DNG format so the files can be imported into Lightroom and will display an initial rendered file.

4. Lightroom, has a different rending process than Sigma, and may not be able to read or accurately apply all the info in the file header, so the rendered display may significantly differ from the Camera rendition.

5. The user will now need to make manual adjustments to create an acceptable rendition.

What am I missing here?

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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New Here ,
May 13, 2020

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In CaptureOne I get the ugly greens again when I import the 3000K images.

 

CaptureOne engineers shoot 700 images to create a profile for a camera. I suppose the procedure at Adobe is similar. My question remains, but now for supported cameras:

How can one make the internal DNG color management dominant so that LR does not alter it? 

Does one have to shoot a color target and create a profile as you suggested, even when the camera is supported? What kind of support is that? I guess support means only that the RAW files are readable - and then Adobe forces its own color management upon them.

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 13, 2020

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Adobe is offering an alternative to your Camera Manufacturers Software for processing of raw files of supported Camera Models, it uses it's own proprietary processing and profiling procedures. There are dozens of similar applications in the market that camera owners can utilize each are unique in what features they offer, this is to the benefit of all users.

In your case, the Camera model you have chosen there are limited choices. Sigma has a very unique and revolutionary sensor which judging from reports produce excellent images. I am pretty you sure you will enjoy the camera.

Adobe only supports a very short list of Sigma Camera Models. See the screen capture.

Screenshot 2020-05-13 at 9.03.35 AM.png

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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New Here ,
May 13, 2020

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I was initially amazed that the SD Quattro is not on the list, then I read carefully the Sigma statement and it states that the camera supports now Lightroom (and not vice versa) by being enabled (via new firmware) to shoot DNGs. With other words, this means next to nothing.

I am indeed enjoying this extraordinary Foveon sensor, I switched since yesterday to Sigma's software and native RAWs, and I export TIFFs from them.

Thank u for your time, research and comments! Much appreciated!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 13, 2020

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You are welcome, hope you are successful with your project.

P>S> Hope you get to see this. I have sent you a private message, see the little envelope next to your profile image.

 

Regards, Denis: System iMac mid-2015, 5K 27” monitor, macOS10.15.6: LrC 9.4, Lr 3.4.1, Ps 21.2.2, Camera OM-D E-M1.

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