Noise Reduction seems not to export at the same "rate" as in Develop

[defaultuv0193urlphq]

I have been working on some photos tonight and had been pretty unhappy with them whenever I exported. I eventually discovered that this is because the exported photos are noisier. This is true even when exporting in lossless formats at 300 ppi, and even when opening up in Photoshop.

I eventually realized that the luminance noise reduction did not appear to be applying to my exports - or at least not applying in the same way it did in the develop panel. I have spent a few hours viewing at 1:1 as well as other zoom levels as well as lining up my exported file to be the same size and in the same location on the screen as the LrC Develop version of the image and then using the taskbar to seemlessy swap back and forth and there has been a very noticable difference. 

I also discovered that the library view does not appear to apply any noise reduction at all. I am not using Smart Preview. I have found quite a few older posts both here and on other online discussion pages reporting a similar problem, though some of these go back nearly 10 years to extremely different software versions. 

Eventually I discovered that if I pump up the noise reduction level considerably before exporting, I can get the same image quality as I see in the develop panel. For example, see the following two images. The first was exported with a luminance noise reduction of 70, but this image (assuming the way it looks carries over throughthe upload to this site) is what I see when I look at the Develop page in Lightroom Classic with the level set to 30. The second image was exported with that luminance noise reduction of 30, but as you can see (assuming the upload doesn't compress it too badly) it is much noisier than the first. 

To make sure I am very clear on this: yes, of course an image with NR of 70 will look smoother than one with a NR of 30, but my point is that the NR 70 export looks like the NR 30 Develop panel image, while the NR 30 export looks much noisier than that, more like an image with a lower level of NR. 

Is this still considered a known problem? Is there some way to fix this or to workaround it other than to pump the NR level up extremely high before exporting?

[Per Berntsen · Accepted solution]

I have spent a few hours viewing at 1:1 as well as other zoom levels as well as lining up my exported file to be the same size and in the same location on the screen as the LrC Develop version of the image

By @defaultuv0193urlphq

Noise/noise reduction and sharpness/sharpening must be evaluated and applied at 100% view, where one image pixel is represented by one screen pixel.

Any other view (like Fit view) will be inaccurate and misleading, because the image has been scaled.

This applies not only to the image in Lightroom, but also to the exported image.

Because of scaling algorithms (sharpening and smoothing) in the application you are viewing the exported image in, the image may appear to more or less noisy. Some image viewers apply a lot of sharpening when scaling.

View at 100% to see a true representation of the image. 

If you are seeing a difference between Library and Develop at 100% view, see the posts by @Todd Shaner in this thread:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/lighting-adjustments-and-noise-changes-dramatically...

If you don't mind sharing the original raw file, we could take a look at it, and make some suggestions on how to process it. If you export a DNG, all the edits you have done will be included.

You can attach it here if it's less than 47 MB.

[Todd Shaner]

"If you are seeing a difference between Library and Develop at 100% view, see the posts by @Todd Shaner in this thread:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/lighting-adjustments-and-noise-changes-dramatically...

Just to be clear. There should be no difference in sharpening or noise in the 100% 1:1 Zoom view between the Develop and Library modules. There may be a difference in color saturation since the Develop module uses the wider ProPhoto RGB color space and the Library module previews use Adobe RGB. However, you will only see this using a wdie gamut display. Regardless, it should have no impact on the observed sharpening and noise reduction between the Library and Develop module 100% 1:1 Zoom views.

When viewing at less than 100% 1:1 Zoom view the Library module preview provides the most accurate rendering. It should match exported image files when viewed on screen side-by-side at the same size. Some additional tips at the post Per mentioned.

The takeaway here is to only adjust Sharpening and noise reduction at 100% 1:1 Zoom view in the Develop module. At less than 1:1 Zoom view the Develop module preview may appear to have less noise and higher sharpening. as explained at the below link.

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic/lighting-adjustments-and-noise-changes-dramatically...

[defaultuv0193urlphq]

Thank you for the replies. I had read through various posts with very similar comments from Todd in my research last night. I have tried to export and attach a DNG file as requested, but when trying to post the forum tells me "The attachment's dsc_5192.dng content type (application/octet-stream) does not match its file extension and has been removed." All I did was choose export from LrC with as a DNG. What have I done wrong? 

If I understand correctly, are you saying that the way the Develop module shows it's image is essentially applying an extra layer of smoothing to the image because of the way it interpolates when scaling over the way the Library module or external viewers do? And that this includes Photoshop (i.e., the way Photoshop scales images is closer to what Library does than what Develop does?) If this is the case, any idea on why this might be? In other words, why is the Develop module designed to show a smoother scaled image rather than displaying it in the way it would be likely to be viewed outside of Lighrtoom?

Either way, is the takeaway that if I want to see what a scaled image will look like I should always check the Library view before exporting? 

Please also allow me to ask for clarification about something else here. I did notice after reading some of Todd's comments last night about resizing that I could get an export that looked closer to the image in Develop by not cropping the photo at all and wondered if this fell under resizing. However, it looks like my cropped images are being exported without resizing - but rather only with cutting off the portions cropped out. For example, the full image of the photo I shared here is 6000 x 4000 px, but the exported image is only 4743 x 3388. This is not because I resized it, but because I cropped the remaining pixels off. Therefore, there shouldn't be any interpolating or smoothing going on to resize the image, but nevertheless if I export the full 24MP image without cropping anything off the exported image is appearing smoother even, if memory serves, if viewed at an appropriate zoom level to match the screen area of the cropped version. I hope I am being clear in what I am saying here and that you may have something to say about it. Thanks. 

[Todd Shaner]

"I have tried to export and attach a DNG file as requested, but when trying to post the forum tells me "The attachment's dsc_5192.dng content type (application/octet-stream) does not match its file extension and has been removed."

You need to upload the DNG file to Dropbox or other file sharing site and insert the share link in a reply here. Make sure you have the Develop setting applied to the original file that exhibit the issue before exporting to DNG file format. It will have your settings embedded in the DNG file.

"In other words, why is the Develop module designed to show a smoother scaled image rather than displaying it in the way it would be likely to be viewed outside of Lighrtoom?"

The Develop module uses a simpler and faster interpolation algorithm (bilinear) to help prevent lag when adjusting controls so its affect appears real-time onscreen without lag. The slower more accurate interpolation algoithm used to create the LrC Library module previews takes considerably longer and are NOT built real-time. To see the difference in preview build time use the Libary module's Quick Develop controls, which will exhibit about a .5 to 1.0 sec or more lag.

"Either way, is the takeaway that if I want to see what a scaled image will look like I should always check the Library view before exporting?"

Yes, that is correct. Set the Loupe Zoom view to the approximate size of export if resizing is to be applied. For example when resizing an image to 50% set the Zoom View to 50%.

"If I export the full 24MP image without cropping anything off the exported image is appearing smoother even, if memory serves, if viewed at an appropriate zoom level to match the screen area of the cropped version."

No, that should not be happening. If you are viewing the original and export file so they appear at the same size onscreen there should be no difference. Are you applying Ouput Sharpening in the Export module to the cropped original file? This is not necessary when 'Resize to Fit' is unchecked and will cause noise in the image to appear higher.

[Conrad C]

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@Todd Shaner wrote:

Are you applying Ouput Sharpening in the Export module to the cropped original file? This is not necessary when 'Resize to Fit' is unchecked and will cause noise in the image to appear higher.

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I was going to ask that same question. The few times I have noticed that an export was noisier than expected, the way I resolved it was to set Output Sharpening to Low or just turned off.

Normally I leave Output Sharpening on Standard because that works great for most images, especially very clean low ISO images. But it seems like Output Sharpening can make noise more visible in high ISO images.

I’m not saying Output Sharpening has to be the answer, but Output Sharpening is a factor that can make an image’s exported version look different than in Develop, especially in the area of noise/detail. 

[defaultuv0193urlphq]

I have had output sharpening turned off on all of these, largely (but not entirely) because of all the old discussions on this topic which advised to do so. 

[Todd Shaner]

As explained Output Sharpening is required when using 'Resize to Fit' to correct softening of the image due to the export interpolation process. It should also be used when creating files for print purposes since they require extra sharpening.

https://laurashoe.com/2012/07/11/sharpening-in-lightroom-part-three-output-sharpening/

As suggested if you can provide an image file with your settings that exhibits this issue we can take a look at it and see what's wrong. Thank you.

You need to upload the DNG file to Dropbox or other file sharing site and insert the share link in a reply here. Make sure you have the Develop setting applied to the original file that exhibit the issue before exporting to DNG file format. It will have your settings embedded in the DNG file.

[TheDigitalDog]

With respect to output sharpening (and capture sharpening), for those new to the concepts, go to the source for not only this workflow, but the methods licenced for ACR/LR:

http://creativepro.com/out-of-gamut-thoughts-a-sharpening-workflow/