Adobe Muse EOL announcement - Alternatives to Adobe Muse?

Report · Mar 26, 2018

Hi all,

For those of you that haven't received the email around the Adobe Muse EOL, see the FAQ Product Announcement that tries to answer some the common questions around the announcement including the reasons behind the decision.

Before we proceed with discussing alternatives, the Muse application will continue to open on your computer. You will be able to continue to edit existing or create new websites with the application. Adobe Muse will continue to be supported until May 20, 2019 and will deliver compatibility updates with the Mac and Windows OS or fix any bugs that might crop up when publishing Muse sites to the web. However, it is quite possible that web standards and browsers will continue to change after Adobe stops support for the application.

While there is no 1:1 replacement for Adobe Muse at this stage, the FAQ link above provides some alternatives. Also, Adobe is making our own investment in DIY website creation and welcomes all Muse customers to join our upcoming pre-release program for a new format that will be introduced this year as part of Adobe Spark. Build a beautiful website—in minutes | Adobe Spark

That being said, I would like to open up this discussion for discussing other solutions and migration paths. It would be ideal if we could focus our efforts on the topic at hand.

Thanks,

Preran

Report · Mar 30, 2018

How many of the Muse users are gonna wanna do that, verse just using a Muse Form Widget etc., ?

I think @sstuart48 , may be right on to the equation, in that Webflow does not want to catabolize its services. As you instead mentioned previously, you offer $15 month just to have a working form as part of the hosting program. Everything is setup to funnel designers into the Webflow eco-system and make it less attractive or easy to exit or not apart of it.

However, it could be easily done even on export, a simple example is program like Blocsapp (or many others) which offer working forms. So aside from not wanting to lose profits or subscribers why can't Webflow offer similar to those already paying more to have the option of export?

It's generally one of the basic necessities of any site. So it's not really very designer friendly or accommodating in that regard. You show a video of code view and most "designers" and Muse users don't wish to see that or approach things from that entry point.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

You show a video of code view and most "designers" and Muse users don't wish to see that or approach things from that entry point.

That is a good point. Another option could be to remove the form element through the Webflow designer, then add an EMBED element and paste in code from a third-party form tool.

Screen Recording 2018-03-30 at 03.44 PM.mov

Then export your site out. When you export the site, the embedded code also gets exported. So all you need to do is upload your code to your own server as is and you'll be good to go.

Hope this makes things more clear about the flexibility.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

pxlgk wrote
Hope this makes things more clear

No. Not at all, instead you worked to negate my entire point and failed to even attempt to address it. Obviously your company easily could, they simply choose not too as described above, even though customers are calling for it as a feature. Which leads right back to my previous post as to why. I get it your companies decision on the subject is indefensible, so you try to deflect the topic.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Hi, W_J_T — happy to go into more detail about the options available — three options that have already been covered here, two of which Nelson created videos to demonstrate. We'll cover a fourth one below, but here's a single post to go into detail regarding each option:

It's worth noting that three of these four options will enable you to have a fully-functional form without requiring any type of hosting subscription through Webflow.

You can use the built-in forms widget which works on projects using a Webflow hosting plan. This includes SSL, custom domain connection, a content delivery network, and 500 form submissions.

Above: Form components in the Webflow Designer
If you want to use a different option and prefer to host elsewhere, you can simply embed any number of free or freemium forms (Typeform, JotForm, etc.) right into your project. For Typeform, simply (1) copy the embed code from Typeform and (2) paste into a Webflow embed element. (Straightforward guide right here: https://university.webflow.com/article/embed)

Above: A Typeform form element
If you want to manually configure a Webflow export to add a form of your choice, you can open up the page in your favorite code editor and manually change the behavior.

Above: Manually selecting an existing form in an exported Webflow project, which you can replace with any third-party form of your choice

Another option:
You can use GET/POST to manually append form data to send it to a database or external database/service of your choosing.

Above: Replacing the default behavior of Webflow form submissions

We're happy to go into more detail, and we're not here to deflect anything, so please keep the questions coming!

Report · Mar 30, 2018

I appreciate your effort and wanting to help sell the product in which you work for. But the same as your colleague you skipped over the entire premise of my post again to avoid it. To instead try and look as if what I stated was being answered and addressed, to be clear it was not.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

It is understandable that there are other tools out there that can help with these basic features, like creating forms, and I'm not implying that Webflow is the end-all-be-all tool for everyone. I'm just helping explain how to use our tool if when forms are exported.

If you choose to export your sites, you'll need a Lite account plan for $24/month. From the surface, Webflow seems like any other tool. But what you're also getting with your $24/month are:

backups on secure Amazon Servers
Interactions & Animations
Responsive Inline Images
Clean code exports (example at the bottom of this page)
Space for up to 10 unhosted projects
Support from team members that have been dedicated fans of Webflow for years first before joining the team. (Myself included)

If I can help be more transparent, I'll be happy to get on a webcam call to further understand your questions

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Another deflective based marketing driven sales pitch, while trying to appear that you are answering me. Amusing.

Allow me to simplify it, yet again.

W_J_T wrote
- offer working forms
- why can't Webflow offer a built in working form on export of site source ? **
- It's generally one of the basic necessities of any site

W_J_T wrote
- Obviously your company easily could, but they simply choose not too
- even though your customers are repeatedly calling for it as a feature, on your forums etc., **
- the subject appears is indefensible, so you try to deflect the topic **

Simple inquiry, zero actual answers as to why.

So to recap, your customers ask for it, you obviously could, yet your company does not. Why?

pxlgk wrote
there are other tools out there that can help with these basic features, like creating forms

^ So why cant your fancy platform / software / service - if it is so "basic"? Rather ironic.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Thanks for the simplification Let me make sure I answer each point as thoroughly and as transparent as possible.

why can't Webflow offer a built in working form on export of site source ? **

Our tool can help create you create a form. But when you export it out, we want to make sure that form still works for you when testing it. So, yes it is still connected to our servers and it is still a working form for up to 10 form test submissions. This is why you do not see an "action" attribute in the exported code. But, you are welcome to add one and point it to your own servers and make your own form processing script.

The reason for the hosting subscription, for even an exported form, is for the server to process and save your form data then send you a notification email when someone submits one of your forms. We want to help streamline and remove any technical barriers when you're making a site in Webflow and hosting it either with us or externally.

If free form processing and data capture is the most important feature you're looking for in a tool, then I totally understand that Webflow might be the right tool for you.

Hope this clears up any confusions

Report · Mar 31, 2018

Thanks @pxlgk mcguirebrannon ,

I have to either school up a bit to understand the POST process, it's not for you to educate me on this. Or I can look at the embed option, hell I could even host with you. Either way - I sincerely thank you for all your robust answers on this forum. I look forward to using your product moving forward.

Best Steve

Report · Mar 31, 2018

Forms have always been pesky, because they throw in another unsure variable into the workflow, apart from the browser: the web server. Remember, Muse also had a lot of trouble since they are relying on server side email SMTP and old PHP queries. In stead of switching, they started to probe the HTTP-server upon FTP upload, to be sure if and which version of PHP and authentication is needed. Quite elegant, actually. At least more elegant than letting the designer find it out, contact hosting support, copy/paste code, and tweak settings like GET/POST. But with Webflow, we at least have dropdown select menus ! Unbelievable that Muse never implemented such an obvious and technically simple option...

Let's understand that whatever's coming after Muse for every one here, we're wishfully looking for a tool that doesn't only lets us serve our cake and eat it, but even gives us the recipe ! Any tool doing the hard work of pushing out pretty reliable code, will have some tricks up its sleeves to get the job done. Especially scripts are almost impossible to "roundtrip" from one tool to another. There are soooo many JS frameworks to choose from and work with, no tool in the world can keep track of them and cater for them all.

Like some of you already noted: we'll probably be moving (again) from one alleged trustworthy closed eco-system to another. And none of them will be able to guarantee they'll still be in business after 2, 5 or 10 years. Only if you're prepared to ditch these visual tools, learn coding, pick up some IDE and/or a dozen of specific task oriented web design tools, you can build, evolve, and move your web projects with more independency and flexibility.

Report · Mar 31, 2018

So funny - the dropdown menus - That's one thing I certainly won't miss about Muse!

The Webflow guys shouldn't be demonised on here for simply taking the opportunity to showcase their product. They are clearly proud of it and rightfully so, they also helped to alleviate a lot of concerns people had. It might not work for everyone but I think it will probably work for the majority.

Like Graham_BarrI am also leaving the thread and going forward Webflow.

Such a sad ending - but hey, that's business. Thanks again Peter for being the voice of expertise on this forum.

(You can come out from beneath your desk now Preran, the coast is clear).

Bye all

Steve

Report · Mar 31, 2018

just left the ecosystem for good. this time for real. no more adobe. i never was that drastic as this week in my hole life. you are right. probably, we move from one to another. but: it never bothered me, when f.e. tools i help to kickstart like macaw or prototypo have been killed off or even macromedia died. adobe's f.u. attitude with all the tools they hyped and dropped (edge animate, edge reflow, edge code) or transform like flash into what-is-"animate"-now really bothered me. with they killing off muse (after some of us tested it in the prerelease forum or based our projects on) the company showed they opinion about their customomers. i supported all muse-widget sites, payed my subscriptions. I am sorry for them. they invested so much. maybe even more than us, the creatives.

it is time to move on and not cry to much. I will invest like hell in all those independent tools there are. when affinity publisher comes out, we have real alternatives to all products of CC for a friction of the money I payed adobe for the last 14 years. you are never to old to learn something new. I am out of here, adobe.

Report · Mar 31, 2018

Thanks Peter. Agreed.

...and when adobe comes up with a new competitive all in one solution to webflow that eliminates the need for dealing w different servers, I may give it a try (just like I built 50 websites in Muse/BC—their current competitive offering).

That my friends is how we will avoid having all our eggs in one basket (Happy Easter)

BUT Adobe‘s lack of gesture of compensation to me for the hours I will have to now spend rebuilding will not be forgotten.

I, like others am leaving this thread. Thank you adobe for at least allowing the open discussion.

Peace

Nick

Report · Mar 31, 2018

"Transparency" amusing you try to peddle that continually. Yet much like with your own customers on your own forums were not able to answer my simple singular example. An example I never said I required ( I don't ), but may be important to Muse users, and remains import to your own users as they remain talking and inquiring about it repeatedly.

These Muse users are coming from one failed promise and product and are now searching towards another. Quite similar to Adobe - the aspects of Webflow's: Closed off, remote cloud based, subscription rental system, may be right for some.

Hopefully they have their eyes wide open however and make sure their choices are not repeating themselves moving forward. So they can better insulate themselves from such things occurring and repeating again in the future. And not simply just blindly buy into another glittery marketing campaign, another thing Webflow does very similar to Adobe.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Pxigk, i feel bad for you. Haven’t read all the posts but I can tell whats going on.

There are people who refuse to evolve. Why are they in here telling Muse users to learn code? They don’t understand why adobe created muse and bought goodberry (BC).

Unless you’re writing the software that writes the code in the background it’s time to move on from that skill set.

Far as I can tell Webflow is what muse and bc put together were supposed to be.

adobe tried and have decided for themselves that they failed.

all this crap about forms and servers is hilarious. A muse form w bc is exactly what Webflow offers.

poor adobe. This will go down in history as their biggest blunder.

webflow will become the new photoshop of website building unless adobe quickly pours it on and creates a competitive all in one solution.

how people can put wix and webflow in the same sentence is hilarious. Either they don’t understand or they can’t face the reality of how their little code tweaks are no longer needed.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

About two months ago someone wrote

And as long as Adobe continues to develop and support Muse and BC, this advantage will only widen.

We could expand this

as long as WIX ......
as long as Webflow .....
as long as et al. .....

The Dutch have a saying; "Een ezel stoot zich in het algemeen geen tweemaal aan dezelfde steen. (A donkey generally does not hit the same stone twice.)".

Wappler, the only real Dreamweaver alternative.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Agreed, Ben. After reading all these posts in this and the other threads, I am dumbfounded by the fact that there are Muse users who are willing to throw themselves into a locked and closed ecosystem and workflow yet again! And one where the user needs to be online ALL THE TIME while working on a project, and source files are kept on third-party servers. It's worse than relying on Muse and BC. It really is.

There are SO MANY open source, free, and commercial simple-to-use alternatives out there. For example, even for someone who doesn't want to deal with code for 98%, Pinegrow + Sitecake would give you FULL CONTROL over the CMS that takes literally one CSS class to add to a content section. And a really nice visual content editor for your clients. And no lock-in with a third party. Not even having to depend on a database.

And so many more options out there for anyone willing to spend just a little bit of time on research, and perhaps learning a tiny bit of basic code. Marketing and instant gratification rule. Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Give a man a fishing rod, and he won't starve.

Kennis is macht, hey Ben? You know it, I know it.

Knowing this, and actually acting on it, are two very different things. Saying all this, I do understand that visual designers without any basic coding skills want to be able to jump on the bandwagon and provide web services to their clients. It is totally understandable. And as Peter explained, many designers posses a mindset in which any kind of code scares the living hell out of them - even simple html and css. But in the end it is only a mindset - there is nothing scary about simple html and css code. And tools such as Pinegrow and Dreamweaver with various extensions could prove to be a liberating experience for them - if only they spent a week on getting the basics. I have taught thousands of students html and css - including many junior graphic designers. Yes, many have trouble with pure code, but they would have no issues working with the aforementioned tools after learning the basics. It empowered them - even if they didn't like it.

Well, lots of words again. Everyone needs to decide for themselves what works for them.

Still, I'd think twice of relying on a server-based third-party service that requires you to be online at all times and asks for rent again. Why would you ever want to found your business on that? I'd worry myself sick. It's too volatile, just as it was too volatile to rely on Muse for your entire web design business. At least, that is my personal opinion.

Report · Mar 31, 2018

is there a way to import your Muse site into webflow? I tried the tutorial and couldn't make heads or tails of it. If I could get one page of it, I think I could figure it out from that.

Started to look into Wordpress. Looks interesting. Lots of plugins.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Last week I chatted with another Dutch ACE/ACI Muse trainer, and of course we discussed various alternatives. He's keen on using WordPress because he finds it relatively easy to get started with it. I know that too, from demonstrating it now and then when people ask me how it basically works. But then he strongly advised me to implement all kinds of plugins, in order to do various server-side householding chores, like EWWW Image Optimizer, W3 Total cache, and WP Rocket. And definitely Yoast, oh yeah, I really shouldn't forget that one...

I bet he's right, after all he's good at it. But boy how I hate all that stuff. It's been 25 years ago when I had to regularly manually flush the cache of my WebStar HTTP server, because some Filemaker plugin would be bugging with it. And things haven't changed so much since then. A year ago I had to dive into sketchy WordPress repositories, to find a replacement for a conflicting multi-language plugin. Of course such things always happen on a Friday evening, after a careless developer clicked "Update" for a newer WordPress version and the website owner calls me as a last resort to handle it, before the weekend kicks in.

Muse hardly ever gave me that paralysed, anxious, out-of-control feeling. And even when Muse and/or a third-party widget did mess-up, I could at least stay within my comfort zone and find a solution or a makeshift loophole.

Seeing that plain and simple panel with "Minify this and that" elicits another "no trouble please" reaction from me. On the hand it looks very relaxed (I set the switch, you do the work), on the other hand when it malfunctions, there's nothing I can do about it. That's also a very reassuring thought 🙂

Report · Mar 30, 2018

W

sstuart48

Not had a chance to play with the 'toys' yet! Just trying to learn the basics. So far, everything I have wanted to replicate, I have found in Webflow. I'm sure there are many great features to discover.

Being an organised person, I really love the block structure and how easy it is to grab a whole section containing multiple items and move 'en-mass' up and down the page. So much of the fine-tuning to make Muse projects look good is done away with in Webflow, which will greatly improve productivity. Eg: Having to alter a change in every breakpoint. With webflow you set the padding you want once, and you know its been replicated throughout the project.

Took a bit of getting used to no Master Pages, but they use "Sections"(a poor name) but a section is duplicated throughout the whole project, so a Navbar is a good example to 'assign' as a Section. Make an edit to a Section on any page and the changes are replicated throughout the entire project.

Not noticed any lag, but only 1 page built so far. I'm stuck with BT old-school broadband, Virgin Media digging in my road as I type I have one project with around 100 pages, each with 50-70 images, I guess that will be the test!

There are a few sliders to click in the dashboard for minifying CSS, but that feature is only on certain plans.

This week has been so unproductive thanks to Adobe Muse, but I cannot build another Muse site for a new client knowing its EOL.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Absolutely - I have a client that has a health and leisure club that is chomping at the bit atm to get their site out the door so I am finishing it off in Muse, and I am backed up with another 4 clients, so I really want to jump into Webflow after this is out the door but I need to understand it fully first as I can't afford the time to 'noob' my way through it - it is SO frustrating. I've been watching the tutorials every night the last couple of nights (and really pi$$ing off the wife!) to try and get my head around everything before jumping in!!!

It is actually really sad as I am building this site now as we speak using Muse - I just have ZERO motivation but I have to plough through this. I really glad for you mate. Well done and good luck with the business.

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Re affording time as a "noob", I wouldn't worry too much, you'll soon recover that when you realise how quickly a page will come together.

I think the trick is in the planning before you start. Style (assign a class) to the headings, subheadings, paragraphs and their relationships with each other and images etc before you add content. Then the page build will be effortless. No more overlapping text frames, issues with some elements being responsive and others not.

I have to say, Muse has been such a waste of my life, both in terms of firefighting the 2017 bugs and also re the EOL announcement. I really thought going to a subscription service with Adobe was the way forward, always getting the latest updates etc.

Keep in touch, and drop me a link when you've built your first site!

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Absolutely will stay in touch, I know your business now - and we both work in Webflow so happy to pass work your way if I get overloaded. FYI my business is http://rubumarketing.com I'm based in West London. I'm a Google Partner as well as I do lots of PPC with them, as well as Facebook advertising etc - so if you have that work and don't want it I can cut you in.

Best

Steve

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Graham_Barr ha scritto
I have to say, Muse has been such a waste of my life, both in terms of firefighting the 2017 bugs and also re the EOL announcement. I really thought going to a subscription service with Adobe was the way forward, always getting the latest updates etc.

I think this maybe the final thought most of us have come in these days…

the original sin was the policy of subscriptions thanks to which they began to close their circle

The sad truth is that this f****ng company has became a marketing company, no more a software house, and we designers are used as beta tester of their stupid-DIY tools: when will be well tested they'll kill other major and structured softwares and start releasing new apps to DIY market.

Maybe could also happen to major apps like InDesign… so everybody can bypass designers and produce advertising material by themselves but above all lead their personal datas to let them doing business like Socials Co.

What a sad drift!

Report · Mar 30, 2018

Graham_Barr wrote
sstuart48
Not had time to play with a form yet. It 'sounds' straightforward. For me, the big test will be sending forms to clients outlook/hotmail/yahoo accounts, which has always been problematic with Muse forms.
You might like to look at the code generated...
My regular homepage with 760 lines of Musr code Rugby Web Design | Website designer in Rugby Warwickshire
Near identical test page built on Webflow with just 156 lines of code Rugby Web Design | Website designer in Rugby Warwickshire

When I check the HTML validity, I get the following results