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Adobe Muse EOL announcement - Alternatives to Adobe Muse?

Adobe Employee ,
Mar 26, 2018 Mar 26, 2018

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Hi all,

For those of you that haven't received the email around the Adobe Muse EOL, see the FAQ Product Announcement that tries to answer some the common questions around the announcement including the reasons behind the decision.

Before we proceed with discussing alternatives, the Muse application will continue to open on your computer. You will be able to continue to edit existing or create new websites with the application. Adobe Muse will continue to be supported until May 20, 2019 and will deliver compatibility updates with the Mac and Windows OS or fix any bugs that might crop up when publishing Muse sites to the web. However, it is quite possible that web standards and browsers will continue to change after Adobe stops support for the application.

While there is no 1:1 replacement for Adobe Muse at this stage, the FAQ link above provides some alternatives. Also, Adobe is making our own investment in DIY website creation and welcomes all Muse customers to join our upcoming pre-release program for a new format that will be introduced this year as part of Adobe Spark. Build a beautiful website—in minutes | Adobe Spark

That being said, I would like to open up this discussion for discussing other solutions and migration paths. It would be ideal if we could focus our efforts on the topic at hand.

Thanks,

Preran

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replies 2432 Replies 2432
Participant ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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You say it like it is but...

Adobe Muse does not have 2 years because as I write Muse is showing issues...

- continual conflections with TypeKit messing up my projects and inhibiting me to upload!

- continual issues with Creative Cloud app and Muse

- the Google map widget not working across sites anymore because Google's new take is that we need to use an API key which the widget doesn't allow for

And the list goes on with minor issues taking up time to resolve, so no Adobe Muse does not have two years and I would not trust Adobe with Muse beyond October 2018!

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Explorer ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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"

Adobe Muse does not have 2 years because as I write Muse is showing issues...

- continual conflections with TypeKit messing up my projects and inhibiting me to upload!

- continual issues with Creative Cloud app and Muse

- the Google map widget not working across sites anymore because Google's new take is that we need to use an API key which the widget doesn't allow for"

heh, heh...I can tell you from thirty years in the software business; if you are expecting buggless software, you will never find it, it does not exist and never will because there are way too many hardware/software/programmer/operator issues that effect it. You do what you are doing now; take time to resolve them. That next shiny new software calling you is no different, you will have as many, or more, issues to spend time working around and, what guarantees they will be there in five years? No guarantees.  So, carve this one in stone:

"The grass always looks greener next door...but we forget we still have to mow it."

The devil you know vs the devil you don't

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Participant ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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Mmmm... pessimistic but that is ok!

Knowing that Adobe has told us to "piss ..." I don't see how your argument holds because there are no guarantees or investment in Muse from Adobe anymore so the grass is now looking much greener on the other side of the fence where a far more professional and committed devil is waiting!

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Explorer ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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I'm certainly not saying stay with Muse forever, for the future, we know everyone has to make a change. I'm saying it isn't a panic situation, you have time to smoothly move your business. Most everything out there is pretty new, or pretty underdeveloped as they are from small companies lacking the heavy resources of the large companies, so get ready to be someone's multi-year beta guinea pig. I've been on the other side of that, using users as unwitting guinea pigs is very common, just keep promising "that will be fixed in the next update!". Ya, right. Take your time, thoroughly analyze your options as well as where your business is and where you want it to go tomorrow.  Whatever you do, don't buy any "pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by" from anyone's marketing department. base your moves solely on what is at hand. not what is promised to be put in later, or "in development" (I laugh at that one). You're working around bugs now? You'll be doing the same with someone else's software too. In business, and war, you have to calculate an "acceptable" casualty rate. Have two percent of the users hitting a web page not getting everything you planned? What is the percent of revenue retrievals from those particular pages? Now calculate that against the two percent screwed up pages and decide if it is acceptable or not. That's business. back in the day, we printed out mailings, stuffed envelopes and licked stamps for our "push". We knew a certain number would be returned, a certain percent (always small) would respond...no different in the process than today, just different method. You won't get every phone, every tablet, every desktop read every page of yours correctly, focus on what works, fix what you can of what doesn't, and forget the rest. It is never perfect.

Phase over to something new in the meantime, you will definitely find some dead end streets and more than your share of aggravations. In the meantime, you see Adobe making strides. They aren't going to abandon the internet. This isn't Microsoft and cell phones. I still have a Windows 10 phone, another of my own "going down a dead end" fork in the road choices. Loved the system, held on as long as I could then just decided it reached a tipping point of the cost of changing. Which brings up another very important topic; the cost of changing.

When I was selling heavy CAD systems, I could walk into a business, show them, with numbers, how my system was substantially better than the competition's. The numbers I presented were straight cost savings against what I could save them on the manufacturing floor in labor and materials, office, and software cost and the savings were big. Sounds like a no brainer, right? It is not, and here is what we all need to take into account in a VERY serious way; the cost of the computer and software is nothing compared to the cost of training for that software, the disruption to the business flow changing from the old system to the new. That's not a cost you gamble with on some small company's new product or even some new product out there. You go down the wrong fork in the road on that one and you just have to do it again and maybe doing it again kills off your company. You have time, use it to carefully decide your next move. Put the emotions on permanent hold, put any feeling of being "betrayed" by Adobe completely out the door. Get a cool, analytical business head going and stay that path.

I'm sitting here today shopping for a new phone. A number of years ago I got a Windows phone, still use it, great concept, works beautifully with my Windows 10 laptops and desktops, a really great ecosystem idea but, Microsoft decided to can it and what is left is really long in the tooth. I rode it as long as I could because it was still a beautiful system but, the lack of mission critical apps, because they canned it,  has created a situation where the cost to keep it exceeds the benefit of buying and learning a new phone system, it now is a major obstacle that my work arounds won't help. I do video work and being away from internet access when I need to purchase flight insurance for my drone isn't an problem that has a cost effective work around anymore, the insurance companies don't have a Windows app I can buy my time sensitive insurance on, it has to be Android or Apple. Small scale example but the same idea. I'll keep Muse knowing it is going away and set into my plans something new...and I'll do it with a cool, patient, analytical head, not set my hair on fire and go into panic mode. You can get upset with Adobe, come up with every conspiracy theory you want but, why? You let your mug of coffee slip out of your hand and crash on the floor and you can yell and cuss and get your, and everyone else's, blood pressure up but, when you calm down, and look down, you see you still have to clean up the mess and all that yelling and screaming was nothing but one more negative. Just like Microsoft canning their phones, Adobe canned Muse, ride it till those costs to do so exceed, what you have carefully costed out, what it would be to stay. I'll be the first to say that the two year window isn't a practical, smooth timeline. Internet technology will change, who knows when or how, and throw a monkey wrench into that plan but, we at least have some heads up.

Use this Adobe Muse situation in a positive way. It is a good training lesson, for you as a business person, on becoming adept at maneuvering your company through unexpected obstacles (there will be plenty more). Or, you can yell and scream, get everyone in your business upset then still have to clean up the mess when you're done anyway. I was just launching a new business to compliment my video business that entailed creating web sites and content for small businesses, I could do real well getting both the media and web ends. You don't think Muse going away throws a major kink in that plan? But, I'll just put the starters up with Muse, phase them over to what gets better down the line. It is what it is.

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Engaged ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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Path11:

Very helpful, thank you.

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Participant ,
May 23, 2018 May 23, 2018

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Wow a story, but yes I see the point you are trying to dive!

To put it into perspective I was aware of Muse's downfall when there was nothing to show at the last year's MAX and Adobe partnering with Microsoft, who you rightly said has killed off their mobile platform including now selling their Surface Pros as laptops instead of tablets/2in1s because they have no intent of further developing their Windows10 for tablet! They have gone back to the desktop!

I have also searched/researched/tested/played/created using a number of WYSIWYG and Web Editors like the likes of Pinegrow/Webflow so I'm not going into this "hot-headed". Adobe has closed the door on the web design community and has no intention to further do anything more with Muse let alone have any sort of replacement. Now that the rest of the software developers have come onboard Adobe doesn't have a very clear lead anymore in what they offer us with their subscription model! So as I stated we might as well move our workflow (the design applications) onto other platforms like Affinity and cast Adobe adrift!

My advice here would be to find something sooner than later (within 6 months max!) because Muse is so heavily integrated with the Creative Cloud that any changes on Adobe's end can mean we lose Typekit, etc... that is built into Muse, and as they have stated Muse is EOL so they don't have to lift a finger to fix it!

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Mentor ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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Path11  wrote

I sold, consulted on, and trained high end CAD/CAM systems for twenty years, [...] this was deep five figure systems that were the backbone of a major manufacturing sector worldwide.

Interesting correlation.

Thankfully those users understand the underlying methodologies however, and when moving over to a new software carry forward those core understandings. Imagine if engineers, architects, manufacturing, etc., just dragged a simple “widget” and hoped for the best concerning product workability, safety, structure, etc., and didn’t need to know what they were really doing or putting together concerning the outcome.

By contrast in this field you can simply drag widgets and not truly know what you are doing, just learn a UI and call yourself a web designer/developer. Thankfully thats not the case concerning skyscrapers, bridges, planes, automobiles, buildings, etc.,

Path11  wrote

They are tools, only tools, only a hammer in your tool box it doesn’t matter if the handle is red or blue

True. But the fact that those CAD/CAM professions need to understand the core concepts, is why the skills are transferable between software systems. The same can be said when a person has understanding of HTML/CSS/JS, then the tools don’t matter due too the underlying transferable knowledge. Its clearly understood very few here wish to hear this regardless of whom has said it or in what manner. It is an interesting correlation between the two professions however.

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Explorer ,
May 22, 2018 May 22, 2018

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Actually, the majority of my customers had no idea of the underlying technologies, we WYSIWYG the whole manufacturing process and I was very good at explaining complicated systems in layman's terms to people with no, or little, computer experience but, that's not really so much the issue and you do bring up a good one, the relying, and trusting, on a widget to work. A very old and common story with software and not going to go away. I've wrestled with that for decades. This is the big problem when you have multiple companies writing software to "work together", even with "standards". One guy updates their software and the link to the next guy's breaks. Everyone is a little selfish, they focus on what they do and pay a lot less attention to making sure their link with others work. And, of course, there is the devious side of it, some companies will see a technology that benefits them, hang the others out to dry intentionally just to give themselves a head start on a new or growing market. Personally, I simply don't trust Google and long ago learned to not trust Apple. You want to rail against Adobe? Adobe is a bunch of piker's next to the way Google and Apple operate, very bad Karma companies. Microsoft dealt with that for years, still do. Microsoft would get the blame for any, and every, glitch a person dealt with when in fact, the Windows systems (the later one's) were built on the NT kernel and that code came from Gates when he was writing OS2 for IBM...a darn near bullet proof system and that NT kernel is no slouch. Where they take the heat is, they put it out to everyone in the world and every jack leg hardware manufacturer wrote terrible drivers for their hardware and Microsoft got the blame for every crash. Same thing with Adobe writing for WW3's standards...what standards? When you have big companies straying from the farm for their own motives, you get widgets that break, programs that break and when you ask why they say "oh ya, we changed that awhile back and not doing things that way anymore" Thanks for the memo pal. Widget writers can have every good intention, be diligent in their work but, once released, they are at the mercy of every company and contractor out there plus, every hardware manufacturer. Think that $49 tablet or phone is going to handle your web page the same as a $1200 unit? Their drivers will be as good as their components.

It is just the thing about WYSIWYG for us, we just have to accept that is the price we pay for wanting the graphical interface vs coding. More middlemen, more gears to gum up when you go out in the world. Maybe a Dreamweaver with a bit more WYSYWIG for initial layout would be an option so you could get at the code but, then you're right back at learning code. You know code and you go out in the world in a full suit of armor, choose to work graphically and it is "here's a trash can lid for a shield, good luck out there on the battlefield." I learned Dreamweaver at Georgia Tech way back in the Macromedia days, won't even try and freshen up, not because it's bad, but because it is one heckuva big mountain to climb and I have other things to do, you can't wear all the hats and, when you get down to it, we're all pretty much wishing a unicorn's unicorn is out there that will let us cleanly work graphically. I really don't think that will ever happen from what I've seen from inside the software industry. So, you learn to code, or you learn to live with the bugs. That unicorn ain't out there.

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Explorer ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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I do not like building houses without foundations. Do you?

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Explorer ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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It's all making me really gun-shy. Either you piece together programs (almost guaranteed to break at some point, if only temporary but break just the same) or new companies that are small that I just don't trust to go all in on.

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Mentor ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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Path11  wrote

It's all making me really gun-shy. Either you piece together programs (almost guaranteed to break at some point, if only temporary but break just the same) or new companies that are small that I just don't trust to go all in on.

If I learned anything in 40 years of dealing with software, developers, and software companies: the reputation, lack thereof, size of the company and number of employees have almost ZERO predictive value over the longevity of a piece of software. Thinking otherwise is merely deluding yourself.

Just go with what feels good NOW and gets the job done. Change is the only constant. When things change, adapt. Simple as that.

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Community Expert ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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Why not give Wappler a try. The Community Edition is free of charge. This is an exercise you can try. Not sure how much you can do with the free version. As a freelancer, student or educator you can purchase the basic version for $49 per year.

I am one of the beta testers and as such I do believe that many Musers can benefit from crossing over.

Wappler, the only real Dreamweaver alternative.

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Mentor ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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Ben, I installed the free version, and found it quite limited. Question to you about the full version: in the demonstration you link to the author doesn't open the Styles panel. In the free version the "visual" properties are limited to Bootstrap ones, and the Styles panel offers no visual CSS editing whatsoever.

I compare this to Pinegrow, which does offer a very nice and easy to use visual CSS editor, in addition to a Bootstrap properties panel.

Can you tell me whether the full version can do any custom visual CSS styling?

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Community Expert ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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I am probably the wrong person to ask, I am not one to use visual CSS styling, mainly because I use Sass. If you don't mind, I will pass your questions on to Teodor K  of the Wappler Development Team.

Wappler, the only real Dreamweaver alternative.

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Mentor ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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Btw, Pinegrow released yet another new version today. It seems they release a new dot version almost every month now. And each update brings interesting and truly USEFUL new features. Quite impressed, I must admit.

Those guys are unstoppable and relentless in their updates.

New:

- light theme

- Google Fonts directly integrated in the normal font dropdown (instead of a separate dialog)

- preserve the original html formatting. Pretty important for any developer who insists on his/her custom html formatting. Nice.

- Font Awesome 5!

- WordPress theming improvements.

https://docs.pinegrow.com/release_notes/release-4-8-31-may-2018/

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Community Expert ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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Yes, I just received an email saying the release of 4.8. I do believe that Pinegrow is a serious contender as a replacement for Muse, better than most of the others that have been mentioned. The biggest differences between Pinegrow and Wappler are that the former facilitates WordPress theme changes while the latter allows for easy dynamic solutions. Both applications are updating their programs at a steady rate, Wappler, because it is a newcomer, has this at weekly intervals. Developers of both apps seem to be very approachable, listening to and implementing the wishes of their users. (hint: Dreamweaver)

I tend to do a lot of backend coding which excludes me from using Pinegrow.

Wappler, the only real Dreamweaver alternative.

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Mentor ,
May 30, 2018 May 30, 2018

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My work tends to be more focused on front-end work, which makes PineGrow an ideal combo with a traditional code editing environment, and most of my clients (if not all) want a WordPress site. With Pinegrow I feel as if I'm cheating at times, since theme development time is reduced by at least 10-20 times now. As a seasoned WP theme developer I found Pinegrow to be a super efficient tool for that type of work.

Wappler *is* interesting. I do hope the devs will improve the GUI [customization], though. A static, non-adaptable, GUI such as the one Wappler uses is a complete and utter turn-off. It definitely got potential; just the dots on the i's.

Anyhow, good times. Interesting new tools are entering the market again. And Dreamweaver seems to be left behind more and more by current developments. DW's dev team seems confused and unable to change course, and are heading for the proverbial iceberg in my opinion. I don't even know why Adobe even cares and bothers anymore at this point (or why anyone would be using DW). But hey, perhaps they'll surprise everyone. Or perhaps not (more likely).

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Explorer ,
May 31, 2018 May 31, 2018

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I agree with the comment about being gun-shy with committing to an application. Take something like Photoshop or InDesign. They've been around for years, decades (forever it seems with Photoshop). I have experience going back with them all the way to the beginning, and all of that experience helps me do work in them today that took me five times longer years ago. I have a nimbleness with them that comes from years of use and growing with them as the apps themselves grow. This is the benefit of an app that has a long life, instead of being cancelled and replaced on a regular basis.

I compare that to website development, where it seems I need to learn a new tool every 5 years. I agree with others that I think Adobe dropped the ball. I think part of this is a dark side to the subscription model. Since they earn their money based on selling suites of software, instead of individual packages, they are less beholden to a particular app's base. Muse is/was an important app for me, but I also need Photoshop and InDesign, so they are not going to lose my business by dropping Muse because of the subscription model.

That shakes my confidence in Adobe in a major way. This shift of theirs was not for the good of designers, but for the good of their bottom line. They viewed Muse as a niche app in an ever more competitive market, and Adobe chose to focus on large workflow tools like XD + DW. I think their calculation is right, for them, but I bet Muse may have survived had it relied on individual sales as opposed to being part of a suite. It's an instance of trying to make their market work in the way they want us to work, as opposed to serving their customer base and giving us the tools we need. They can do this because of the subscription model, in part.

Dreamweaver is a clunky mess. I used to design with it, and I was so very thankful to relegate it from a design tool (which it is not), to a backup coding and site correction tool. I use it only when I have to. I could continue to design with it, but why would I? I takes twice as long if not longer to make a site from scratch in DW as it does in a more design oriented app like Muse or the other contenders on the market.

After reviewing this whole situation, as a professional designer I've made the following decisions: I can't rely on Adobe to fill the gap they just abandoned, so I will have to look outside Adobe for my primary website designs needs now. I'm going to try Pinegrow and perhaps Wappler, and see which one works best for me. I'm also going to work more with WordPress since I feel they will be around for the long haul. This lends more weight to Pinegrow as a solution. I'm going to continue using Muse as I learn these other apps, and migrate away from Muse in the same way that I migrated away from DW years ago.

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Explorer ,
May 31, 2018 May 31, 2018

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I remember one of my professors in college that taught digital design in 2014 said,"do not depend on software it will change learn the process, and design then use it on whatever software there is." Or something like that. Now I see how real his words are. However, this feels more like a betrayal than the software EOL. Everyone bought in we were friends and family. I will continue to use Adobe products, but I felt cultish and loved Adobe. It has been like marriage and Adobe broke their vows. I would never have considered using another software product other than Adobe. They broke their pledge now I will look at other attractive choices. They have cheated on us now I will start to cheat also. They could have invited us along on their new journey with Microsoft, but they just left us flat. No option just do the best you can, seeya don't want to be ya! Flat leaver is what Adobe is. That is a term we used as kids when your best friend left you to go with new friends and not invite you along. But that is life such as it is. I have been searching for an alternative here are a few sites I thought may have some promise I would like to share. Thank you all for the links you have shared.

Best of luck to you all.

https://www.platonik.co.uk/,

Adobe Business Catalyst alternatives for e-commerce & lead generation websites – Platonik

Adobe Muse Responsive Widgets & Themes Store | MuseGain.com

PlatformOs | Marketplace Software

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Engaged ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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Judging by the rise and fall and slight rise again in posts I think most of us are probably over the initial hump of assessing the issue and are hopefully now smoothing out into decisions and practical steps (though it is still uncomfortable). I think Wappler and Pinegrow are probably most suited to me as the next alternatives - w/o code looks ok but doesn't suit the business model I have where clients provide their own hosting and I may not be able to convince them to migrate.

The key thing for me will be to find the right solution for the existing clients as well as re-form the basis upon which I build new sites and try and sustain a business (albeit 'part time'). So, for my holiday property client, re-creating and servicing his site maybe through an existing property management platform might be the best, rather than rebuilding a 282 page site by hand. For my 'one pagers', then maybe the off the shelf offering in their existing package that we are currently bypassing with a custom site (1&1 website builder, for example). So, horses for courses.

It's still not ideal and many like me will still feel that ripping out Muse from your business model / preference / workflow is still going to be painful. It's a personal choice about how far an individual wants to go with coding or not - I'm still a bit lost getting into Pinegrow for example - but I'll have to commit to learning something along those lines soon.

Thanks for all the input over the thread and good luck all!

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Explorer ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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You said, "but doesn't suit the business model I have where clients provide their own hosting and I may not be able to convince them to migrate." True, true. This is the biggest problem for most of us I think. It was the business model. It's like losing your best quarterback in the NFL, you can go from hero to zero in a season or less.

Keeping  up the search,

Take care

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Explorer ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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I'm seeing more replies from people whose posts could have been written by me, so I find it encouraging (as well as discouraging that Adobe put us all in this boat) that we're finding a solution to this mess. One of the common threads I see is most of us walking away from Adobe when it comes to looking at the company as a website design tool maker, and we aren't likely to come back. I think it's been said over and over what a bad decision this was of Adobe, at the very least in how they went about it by pulling a product without having a replacement in place, but it really can't be overstated how short sighted this is for the business model of a lot of us independent designers.

I'm noticing that a lot of the solutions, such as Webflow, Wappler, Pinegrow, etc., all seem like they fit somewhere between Muse and Dreamweaver. They aren't as design friendly as Muse is, but they aren't as code heavy and lumbering as Dreamweaver. Muse is really a unique product in that it allows a site to be constructed almost exclusively using a design approach. Now that I look around at the alternatives, I'm surprised that there are no other products that do what Muse does.

I'm going to focus on Pinegrow for a bit and give it a try. I may post my impressions of it here, and I urge those of you trying products to also post your impressions. Since many of us are in the same boat, we are all doing the work of experimenting, so we might as well pool our experiences to speed the process along for each other.

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Explorer ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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Hello,

One big pet peeve I have with Adobe is their lame excuse that DIY websites were terrible for their business, so they pulled the plug on all of our companies. We brought in to "build business websites, not just websites" DIY was not doing it for a lot of businesses. DIY sites love the cave in from Adobe. On this issue, my conspiracy theory is DIY paid Adobe off to drop out... Muse and Business Catalyst together as a business model was terrific the best. Again according to my opinion that is what is missing from all the choices left out there. It was easy to sell DDIY (Don't Do It Yourself) over DIY. I will get over this spilled milk. I will try another line of business. However, I can always use my web design skills to make my site and use my marketing skills in different ways to succeed. It feels like getting over your first love. You would not learn all of life's lesson if you did not have your heart broken at least once.

"Crying over spilled milk."

(Time Heals many things.)

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Community Expert ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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EZEZ1  wrote

my conspiracy theory is DIY paid Adobe off to drop out...

Your conspiracy theory has a lot holes in it.  MUSE cannot handle current web standards much less new ones.  It's no longer fit for purpose.  

Muse and other web design tools like it (Serif  Webplus) were discontinued for very good reasons.   Reprogramming the software to do what it should is too costly.  It's no coincidence that Affinity (formerly Serif) completely pulled out of  web authoring to focus on design tools.    Adobe did the responsible thing by pulling Muse.  And it could be argued by some that it should have been done sooner. 

Nancy O'Shea— Product User, Community Expert & Moderator
Alt-Web Design & Publishing ~ Web : Print : Graphics : Media

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Community Expert ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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Nomen est omen, as the Latin saying goes. This "Muse" did something truly wonderful. She inspired and stimulated many of us for a long while (as all muses have been doing throughout Greek history), but it just couldn't go on anymore...

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