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How I May Move Forward From Muse

Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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Yes, this is sad. But now we have to decide what to do today, tomorrow and over the next year and more.

Here are some of my thoughts on charting a path forward. Feel free to join in, and enlighten me where I may be wrong, etc.

1. Muse isn't EOL/EOS for another year. Even after that, it's likely (though no assurances) that we can eek out another year of some level of service. Since I am on Windows, I have far less concern about the OS or its upgrades causing conflicts (however, Win 10 has been a headache, so who knows.) Those on a Mac have more reason to be concerned about an OS update conflict, which Adobe will not address after next year.

2. The other compatibility concern is about web browsers evolving. This can cause issues with Muse sites (again, which Adobe will stop addressing ), as well as third-party tools that may not see continued development (though to their never-ending credit, the Muse-Themes team has said they shall continue dev, support and even releasing new tools--bravo!). There is also the issue of general vulnerability to hackers and viruses (I did have one Muse site hacked a while back). Adobe's support for correcting these things, even over the next year, may not live up to our needs. It's a lot of crap-shooting here.

3. I'll add one more concern that I only see briefly mentioned in the threads:  The Typekit fonts are dependent on Creative Cloud. According to Preran, that will not change. But that is a problem for many reasons. First we can't be sure just what WILL change and what won't. We know that. We also don't know if Muse site's integration with the hosted Typekit system will face any issues that can only be corrected by an update to Muse (this has happened a number of times). Perhaps Adobe will address it, perhaps not. Moreover, even if your sites are published and posted and you don't even use Muse any longer, I assume you will need to keep some level of Creative Cloud membership to keep your existing sites connected to the type service. And if so, what level of membership will be required? (This isn't an issue for those keeping CC for other applications. But one gets the idea many here are looking elsewhere for things.)

4. With all of that in mind:  The options for moving forward are not great for MOST of us. I have seen those with lesser needs are gravitating to more of the online site builders. Great. And those with more traditional web backgrounds and coding abilities are moving back up the developer food chain. More power to them! (Though some of them telling artists/designers to learn to program is much like telling someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk. It is unrealistic and just plain thoughtless.)

5. This leaves what I think represents most Muse users who are in the middle. We are running a business, so we depend on being able to produce sites that look great (hey, designers!), work well (web isn't like print, the tech needs to work), and bring it in at a competitive price (if I needed to code, I would never be competitive). I have followed up on all of the options I have seen listed in the forums (and done this in the distant past as well) and there SIMPLY IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR MUSE. PERIOD.

6. What I have found are a lot of promising directions for the future. It feels like it did during those dark years between Flash's death, and the rise of Muse. Something will rise to fill in the gap. And I have a feeling it won't take as long this time. Muse-Themes makes note that they have had over 110,000 member/customers. Given that, I have to think that we could very roughly estimate that only 1 in 10 Muse users was a MT customer. That would put the Muse user base over 1 million. Not hard to imagine with Adobe's reach. While Adobe may be big enough to walk away from that, this has got to be a market lots of developers want to cater to. I would be shocked if the various options out there aren't scaling up their teams now, hoping to be first to market. (I'll look back at this post in a year and see how wrong I was).

7. BOTTOM LINE.  Here is what I plan to do:

a. I plan to explore the most viable options, for me (yours may be very different). I have installed Wordpress on my server and am exploring that, the various add-ons that make it easier to use, and a few other things. But I am going to be in no rush to move over to something new just yet. A year goes fast, but it is also a long time to start exploring and learning.

b. I am going to bite the bullet and continue making the sites I need to make in Muse for at least the next few, maybe 6 months. I am going to hope that during that time one of a few things becomes apparent. That I start a warm and fuzzy relationship with one of the options I have been exploring. Or that one of the options starts to really come out with compelling tools for a designer oriented solution.

c. Basically, I am going to make the bet that in the next year between external forces (software offerings) and internal forces (my own expanded knowledge), we will have a significantly different landscape. It's not a great bet. But it's on par with any other paths that I see.

d. FINALLY, I'm going to hope that whichever platform I finally end up on, is going to offer me the ability to create a responsive site without the hair-pulling Muse put most of us through. This will allow me to begin migrating older/existing sites over towards the end of this year (And hopefully not procrastinate and wait until the sites start breaking with no Adobe to fix things.)

That is my 2 cents. For now.

-Lance

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How I May Move Forward From Muse

Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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Yes, this is sad. But now we have to decide what to do today, tomorrow and over the next year and more.

Here are some of my thoughts on charting a path forward. Feel free to join in, and enlighten me where I may be wrong, etc.

1. Muse isn't EOL/EOS for another year. Even after that, it's likely (though no assurances) that we can eek out another year of some level of service. Since I am on Windows, I have far less concern about the OS or its upgrades causing conflicts (however, Win 10 has been a headache, so who knows.) Those on a Mac have more reason to be concerned about an OS update conflict, which Adobe will not address after next year.

2. The other compatibility concern is about web browsers evolving. This can cause issues with Muse sites (again, which Adobe will stop addressing ), as well as third-party tools that may not see continued development (though to their never-ending credit, the Muse-Themes team has said they shall continue dev, support and even releasing new tools--bravo!). There is also the issue of general vulnerability to hackers and viruses (I did have one Muse site hacked a while back). Adobe's support for correcting these things, even over the next year, may not live up to our needs. It's a lot of crap-shooting here.

3. I'll add one more concern that I only see briefly mentioned in the threads:  The Typekit fonts are dependent on Creative Cloud. According to Preran, that will not change. But that is a problem for many reasons. First we can't be sure just what WILL change and what won't. We know that. We also don't know if Muse site's integration with the hosted Typekit system will face any issues that can only be corrected by an update to Muse (this has happened a number of times). Perhaps Adobe will address it, perhaps not. Moreover, even if your sites are published and posted and you don't even use Muse any longer, I assume you will need to keep some level of Creative Cloud membership to keep your existing sites connected to the type service. And if so, what level of membership will be required? (This isn't an issue for those keeping CC for other applications. But one gets the idea many here are looking elsewhere for things.)

4. With all of that in mind:  The options for moving forward are not great for MOST of us. I have seen those with lesser needs are gravitating to more of the online site builders. Great. And those with more traditional web backgrounds and coding abilities are moving back up the developer food chain. More power to them! (Though some of them telling artists/designers to learn to program is much like telling someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk. It is unrealistic and just plain thoughtless.)

5. This leaves what I think represents most Muse users who are in the middle. We are running a business, so we depend on being able to produce sites that look great (hey, designers!), work well (web isn't like print, the tech needs to work), and bring it in at a competitive price (if I needed to code, I would never be competitive). I have followed up on all of the options I have seen listed in the forums (and done this in the distant past as well) and there SIMPLY IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR MUSE. PERIOD.

6. What I have found are a lot of promising directions for the future. It feels like it did during those dark years between Flash's death, and the rise of Muse. Something will rise to fill in the gap. And I have a feeling it won't take as long this time. Muse-Themes makes note that they have had over 110,000 member/customers. Given that, I have to think that we could very roughly estimate that only 1 in 10 Muse users was a MT customer. That would put the Muse user base over 1 million. Not hard to imagine with Adobe's reach. While Adobe may be big enough to walk away from that, this has got to be a market lots of developers want to cater to. I would be shocked if the various options out there aren't scaling up their teams now, hoping to be first to market. (I'll look back at this post in a year and see how wrong I was).

7. BOTTOM LINE.  Here is what I plan to do:

a. I plan to explore the most viable options, for me (yours may be very different). I have installed Wordpress on my server and am exploring that, the various add-ons that make it easier to use, and a few other things. But I am going to be in no rush to move over to something new just yet. A year goes fast, but it is also a long time to start exploring and learning.

b. I am going to bite the bullet and continue making the sites I need to make in Muse for at least the next few, maybe 6 months. I am going to hope that during that time one of a few things becomes apparent. That I start a warm and fuzzy relationship with one of the options I have been exploring. Or that one of the options starts to really come out with compelling tools for a designer oriented solution.

c. Basically, I am going to make the bet that in the next year between external forces (software offerings) and internal forces (my own expanded knowledge), we will have a significantly different landscape. It's not a great bet. But it's on par with any other paths that I see.

d. FINALLY, I'm going to hope that whichever platform I finally end up on, is going to offer me the ability to create a responsive site without the hair-pulling Muse put most of us through. This will allow me to begin migrating older/existing sites over towards the end of this year (And hopefully not procrastinate and wait until the sites start breaking with no Adobe to fix things.)

That is my 2 cents. For now.

-Lance

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Mentor ,
Apr 05, 2018

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MediaGraphics  wrote

Muse-Themes makes note that they have had over 110,000 member/customers. Given that, I have to think that we could very roughly estimate that only 1 in 10 Muse users was a MT customer. That would put the Muse user base over 1 million. Not hard to imagine with Adobe's reach.

An actual number is hard to quantify, only Adobe has that data. But consider this ...

Some web stat sites declare they find 500,000 Muse sites online. So with that as an example if each designer only makes 1 site, thats 500,000 users. If each designer makes 10 sites thats 50,000 users, 20 sites each equals 25,000 users. So you can imagine the "average" if the 500k statistic is correct, the average would make that overall user number substantially less.

MediaGraphics  wrote

Muse-Themes team has said they shall continue dev, support and even releasing new tools--bravo!

Regarding that "new tool" consider these things. It will not be a Muse replacement.

MediaGraphics  wrote

(Though some of them telling artists/designers to learn to program is much like telling someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk. It is unrealistic and just plain thoughtless.)

Speaking of thoughtless, that statement certainly was.

To compare a person confined to a wheelchair with a person who can expand their abilities if they desire and choose to put forth the required effort, is beyond thoughtless and is definitively appalling to no end. Next time you see someone with a degenerative disease confined to a wheelchair unable to walk, take the time to explain to them how it would be easier for them to walk, than for you to learn HTML & CSS markup. I hope you think about that the next time you feel anything is too hard.

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Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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Thank you for the thoughtful comments above. I think both ways to figure it are equally shot in the dark. I don't know how accurate the website stat sites are (you don't give the reference, and seem to be quoting someone else). But I also tend to believe Steve Harris in what he says.

I'm sure there are many variables to explain the wide variance in estimates we are guessing at, especially the fact that we are guessing. In addition, there could be quite a large number of "users" that have not actually published sites. Or even multiple users working on larger single sites (though Muse itself certainly isn't set up for multiple users, and I guess we never will get that "packaging" feature now).

As to your last comments, fine, perhaps not the best analogy in the world. But as I have first hand experience with a handicapped family member, the analogy of a physical limitation came to mind. No reason to make it a huge issue. If you too are speaking from personal experience of physical handicap, then you appreciate how people frequently tell someone with a limitation to do things that they simply cannot.

Regardless. Even if you CAN program, like I can, it isn't always a good idea. I can do it, but I'm piss-poor slow at it. This would not work in a competitive commercial setting.

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Mentor ,
Apr 05, 2018

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W_J_T  wrote

MediaGraphics   wrote

(Though some of them telling artists/designers to learn to program is much like telling someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk. It is unrealistic and just plain thoughtless.)

Speaking of thoughtless, that statement certainly was.

To compare a person confined to a wheelchair with a person who can expand their abilities if they desire and choose to put forth the required effort, is beyond thoughtless and is definitively appalling to no end. Next time you see someone with a degenerative disease confined to a wheelchair unable to walk, take the time to explain to them how it would be easier for them to walk, than for you to learn HTML & CSS markup. I hope you think about that the next time you feel anything is too hard.

MediaGraphics  wrote

As to your last comments, fine, perhaps not the best analogy in the world. But as I have first hand experience with a handicapped family member, the analogy of a physical limitation came to mind. No reason to make it a huge issue. If you too are speaking from personal experience of physical handicap, then you appreciate how people frequently tell someone with a limitation to do things that they simply cannot.

Regardless.

Your comment and follow up response is even more pathetic then. It's amazing in your situation that you have such little understanding or empathy towards such comments.

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Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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As a chronically ill caregiver of a spouse who uses a wheelchair, I am not offended by the analogy. (In fact, I myself use a cane and legally qualify for a disabled parking placard). I absolutely agree with MediaGraphics' statement about people frequently telling someone with a limitation to do things that they simply cannot. I actually have a little coding knowledge, but me trying to code well enough to make a functional, beautifully designed responsive site would be a bit like telling me to throw down my cane and run a marathon. It ain't going to happen, and no amount of desire or willpower will make it happen. It's as realistic as telling an exhausted, over-worked middle-aged designer like me to go back to school for an advanced degree in astrophysics. Just work hard and apply yourself!

There is no need to be calling people "pathetic." Many of us are hurting deeply over what Adobe has done, and are facing hundreds of hours of unpaid labor learning new programs and moving websites. Kindness is a form of empathy and understanding too. I appreciated MediaGraphics's thoughtful comments on this.

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Mentor ,
Apr 05, 2018

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I appreciated their post as well.

Just not the senseless comparison to someone in wheelchair - vs - learning web development.

CuriousChip  wrote

me trying to code well enough to make a functional, beautifully designed responsive site would be a bit like telling me to throw down my cane and run a marathon. It ain't going to happen, and no amount of desire or willpower will make it happen.

I am astounded that people equate learning HTML & CSS markup to having a disability or being confined to a wheelchair.

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Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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It's a metaphor, expressing that a suggestion is well beyond realistic expectations. It's not meant as a literal equation.

That said, in literal terms, as someone with limited stamina and in a very difficult situation as a caregiver to someone even worse off than I am while trying to still be productive, it is frustrating when people pass judgement on what they think I, and people like me, should or shouldn't be capable of doing.

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Mentor ,
Apr 05, 2018

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CuriousChip  wrote

It's a metaphor, expressing that a suggestion is well beyond realistic expectations. It's not meant as a literal equation.

A very ill-conceived and distasteful one, with no correlation whatsoever.

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Participant ,
Apr 06, 2018

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As a person with a disability, making reference to my own situation, and who is the caregiver for a spouse with a severe, advanced neurodegenerative disease who needs a wheelchair and 24/7 assistance, I feel qualified to weigh in on this. Frankly, it's not up to anyone else to tell me whether I'm entitled to use my own disability as the basis of whatever metaphor I want make about my own situation.

I don't know Lance (MediaGraphics), but I found the way you jumped on him and started with the name calling and insults, after he was polite to you, to be far more distasteful than any metaphor that was used here, whether you found it ill-conceived and distasteful or not. I agree with him that there was no reason to make it a huge issue. This has been blown up completely out of proportion and has become ridiculously off-topic.

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Mentor ,
Apr 06, 2018

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CuriousChip  wrote

I feel qualified to weigh in on this.

CuriousChip  wrote

degenerative disease / metaphor

MediaGraphics  wrote

(Though some of them telling artists/designers to learn to program is much like telling someone in a wheelchair to get up and walk. It is unrealistic and just plain thoughtless.)

W_J_T   wrote

Speaking of thoughtless, that statement certainly was.

To compare a person confined to a wheelchair with a person who can expand their abilities if they desire and choose to put forth the required effort, is beyond thoughtless and is definitively appalling to no end. Next time you see someone with a degenerative disease confined to a wheelchair unable to walk, take the time to explain to them how it would be easier for them to walk, than for you to learn HTML & CSS markup. I hope you think about that the next time you feel anything is too hard.

1.] Degenerative disease - vs - 2.] Learning HTML / CSS markup.

I am also speaking with direct perspective and complete understanding having lived both sides fully. First losing a parent as a young child to a terrible degenerative disease (ALS), later studying fine art and design in college (no computers), then teaching myself to code shortly after and making a career in both development and design.

So nothing can be said or explained that will give any validity for trying to make a correlation between the two acceptable. They are non-comparable in every facet, and it remains an ill-conceived and distasteful metaphor to use in this or any context.

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Participant ,
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You are twisting my words out of context. Obviously, the horrible illness and loss of your parent was a deeply traumatizing experience, and I'm sorry you had to endure such a devastating loss at such a young age, but please stop taking your anger and issues out on the rest of us. If someone says they'd rather die than do something, is that a distasteful equivalence to suicide in your book? Enough, really. Can we please get back to discussing software issues?

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Mentor ,
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CuriousChip  wrote

You are twisting my words out of context.

Sorry, but thats not the case at all.

CuriousChip  wrote

stop taking your anger and issues out on the rest of us. If someone says they'd rather die than do something, is that a distasteful equivalence to suicide in your book?

But speaking of twisting.

Why are you trying to wrongly place such contexts of "anger and issues" upon me? Let alone your dramatization and again trying to place assumptions upon me, with your use of the thought of suicide as yet another metaphor to diminish the previous poor use of an ill-conceived metaphor in the conversation above.

No wonder people feel they can't learn HTML / CSS markup, if they can't even realize when to be apologetic or remorseful, or understand when two things are not remotely comparable towards each other and instead fight for some sort of vindication.

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Participant ,
Apr 07, 2018

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I have nothing to be "apologetic or remorseful" about. I explained my own situation and offered my opinion. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean I should feel "remorseful."

Mostly, I don't like it when people start with the name calling and insults, as you did, just because they disagree with something someone said. This discussion has gone so far beyond the original point of this forum entry it is really not appropriate. The point of this forum thread should be discussing Muse and where we should go from here.

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W_J_T LATEST
Mentor ,
Apr 07, 2018

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CuriousChip  wrote

There is no need to be calling people "pathetic."

CuriousChip  wrote

I don't like it when people start with the name calling and insults, as you did

You keep falsely classifying and declaring my statements context.

W_J_T  wrote

Your comment and follow up response is even more pathetic then.

Note there is no reference towards a person, but instead towards the comment and response.

CuriousChip  wrote

this forum entry it is really not appropriate.

Amusingly that was the whole point, it not being appropriate. Yet you chose to argue in its favor, then ironically complain the thread went off topic. When you are the one whom chose to jump in and propel the discussion, based on your false classification of name calling and own assumptions.

That is it from me, unless you continue to try and provide more inaccurate recollections.

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Participant ,
Apr 05, 2018

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Pretty much my thought.  I really m not impressed with anything out there yet!  And Muse has driven me crazy as well but a lot easier to use and overcome the quirkiness.  I am still pretty twisted with Adobe about this.

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Participant ,
Apr 07, 2018

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Getting back to the original topic, I have signed up for Webflow, and am beginning to find my way around it. But I think I'm probably less enthusiastic about it than some. I don't like the online aspect of it, and I would prefer that it offered more options for breakpoint sizes, among other things. But I am hoping it might prove to be a decent alternative with a little more work put into it. I came to Muse from WordPress, and would really rather not go back in the other direction. The constant updates that occasionally would break a site and the security issues with WordPress are things I don't miss. I once suddenly had all the styling disappear from a WordPress site, overnight and without warning, along with some other weirdness. The web host thought I'd been hacked. Nothing like that has ever happened with any Muse site I've done.

I will finish my current Muse website, but it will be my last. I don't want to invest more time in more sites that will have to be converted.

I have always had concerns about the TypeKit integration with Muse. I think one positive that will come out of this is that our sites will no longer be dependent upon our CC accounts to display properly.

Whatever solution(s) you wind up ultimately using, Lance, good luck with it. I think you are right that something will appear to fill in the gap. At least I sure hope so!

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