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Important - Adobe Muse websites as saleable, quality web content

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Jul 13, 2017

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I would have a serious question. I'm trying to make high-quality websites designed by Adobe Muse with different modules that are technically appropriate. The problem is: the country I'm mainly advertising my service (Hungary) isn't a quite good place for this type of service. At our company a well-designed, stable site costs about 800 dollars. That means one month work, not only the design, but also the integration. A webstore costs about 2000 dollars with integrated elements and a good wireframe as background. A registration system which also requires a database, takes about 3 months, the price costs about 2500 USD.

We also managed to make a registration system which was designed in Muse and a database-driven CMS was connected to it.

The problem is, we can't really keep these prices, and in spite of all this, there are not enough customers, though we advertised it on Google Adwords. There are plenty of cheap (free CMS) services which are less beautiful, but are more unstable.

What is Your opinion? Where can I get quality clients (For example in the U.K., Germany, etc.) My site is also in English and German.

We would also like to target clients who would have high multimedia expectations.

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Important - Adobe Muse websites as saleable, quality web content

New Here ,
Jul 13, 2017

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I would have a serious question. I'm trying to make high-quality websites designed by Adobe Muse with different modules that are technically appropriate. The problem is: the country I'm mainly advertising my service (Hungary) isn't a quite good place for this type of service. At our company a well-designed, stable site costs about 800 dollars. That means one month work, not only the design, but also the integration. A webstore costs about 2000 dollars with integrated elements and a good wireframe as background. A registration system which also requires a database, takes about 3 months, the price costs about 2500 USD.

We also managed to make a registration system which was designed in Muse and a database-driven CMS was connected to it.

The problem is, we can't really keep these prices, and in spite of all this, there are not enough customers, though we advertised it on Google Adwords. There are plenty of cheap (free CMS) services which are less beautiful, but are more unstable.

What is Your opinion? Where can I get quality clients (For example in the U.K., Germany, etc.) My site is also in English and German.

We would also like to target clients who would have high multimedia expectations.

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Jul 13, 2017

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Well, perhaps you're simply not offering something clients want? I could think of enough reasons why I wouldn't want my website to be built on a proprietary system that doesn't allow me full control even after I've paid for the initial design and that's going to cost me a lot of extra fees for the rest of eternity. I really think you have it wrong. The clients that you possibly seek will be much happier with a full CMS-based system which they can manage thmeselves way better than even the most elaborate muse website. And then of course there's always that thing with privacy and security concerns, contracts with external service providers, integration with internal systems and so on. It's just the nature of the thing - if you want big accounts, you have to play by their rule book, not attempting them to sell something they may not want and clearly, Muse simply is not up to the task in many areas.

Mylenium

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New Here ,
Jul 14, 2017

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Thanks for the answer, but it seems You misunderstood something.

On the contrary, most of the needs can be fulfilled with Muse and 3rd party suppliers. That is what I'm talking about.

If somebody wants to edit his/her website in alight way, there is Adobe In-Browser Editing (for text and photos). If it is about a more complex editing, there is Musexpress that can allow Wordpress connectivity with Muse, and most of the Muse plugins can be applied. A very useful system. There are better design options than in an online-based Wordpress editor, and it can be safer and more stable than using only the basic Wordpress.

Almost everything is available, a special Wordpress CMS, blogging,  installable 3rd party plugins, Woocommerce that can be integrated, etc.

Muse-themes has 2 blog-systems, Mumblr and Article Connect. Qooqee has also 2 blogging options, with integrated social media, the latest has just been released, a super, stable CMS  (Muse Blog-CMS)

There are several webshop-systems which can be integrated, from Ecwid, Shopfiy to complex Woocommerce systems.

Most of the plugins that are available in Wordpress are accessible at the 3-4 main 3rd party companies. Some of them are even in better quality. That means all types of graphic, multimedia, technical, social media modules.

As I told You, we had done serious work with Muse and Wordpress, too, combined, and design abilities in that case were in fact better than only in Wordpress. I've already seen a lot of cheap Wordpress, Joomla and Drupal sites which collapsed, and which were designed in a week, cost maybe 400 USD, but it didn't have any sense at all.

Most people don't know what the main differences are, even most companies don't. So, if You made a super Wordpress site for 4000 USD, they wouldn't want to buy it here. That's why my question was how I should build a quality circle of clients. Adwords is quite expensive for having idiotic clicks in 90 % of the cases, UK and German Google adwords are even more expensive. Later, it turned out Adwords is not the best option for having quality clients. Optimizing works in some way, but it is almost impossible if You have 15 Adwords-advertisers and 35 other individuals, many of them don't provide quality service, just cheap open-source code sites, which have defects, You can experience it by just having a look at the main pages.

So, what platform do You recommend for obtaining clients who are willing to pay the amount required, or is there no real money in this whole business? If that is the case, then this type of enterprise can't be maintained. I don't think quality websites with the above mentioned techniques can be made for example in the US for 300 USD, etc. If that was true, then the main module-providers wouldn't have any subscriptions, and would go bankrupt.

So, could somebody tell me what the real situation is, is it worth to deal with high-quality webdesign and creating quality web content, or not?

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Jul 14, 2017 0
Guide ,
Jul 14, 2017

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Thanks for the answer, but it seems You misunderstood something.

On the contrary, most of the needs can be fulfilled with Muse and 3rd party suppliers.

I think you are very mistaken and go on the wrong and not productive way. Muse is a program for designers, but not for development. Working in Muse, you can only sell design, but not a turn-key site. My practice is to design in Muse, from this design a template is made for the CMS that the client wants (Joomla, Wordpress and so on) - that's all it takes. If the client needs additional functionality, there is a huge number of ready-made solutions. In addition, now there are excellent visual page builders for Joomla and Wordpress. In this regard, work in the Muse is not always required. Your mistake is that you are trying to use Muse as the main and universal tool. But Muse is just one tool from the set.

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New Here ,
Jul 15, 2017

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I think I'm not in the wrong way, I know Muse is mainly a design tool, but despite this, it generates a more stable source code than a free Joomla-based template is (I've seen a lot of collapsing sites or sites with vibrating images when I scroll over, so it is a more secure and productive way for us to design in Muse, with a desktop application than in an online application with limited graphical abilities. The applications, programs can all be integrated. The question is how it should work the best way, because there are individuals and companies abroad who work this way, and it works somehow.

The question is how can I build a successful business around it? What prices should I make? What kind of advertising platforms should I choose?

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Guide ,
Jul 15, 2017

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I think I'm not in the wrong way, I know Muse is mainly a design tool, but despite this, it generates a more stable source code than a free Joomla-based template

I can only repeat it again - you are very mistaken. There are no advertising systems that will help you get customers ready to pay for your ambitions. I want a house made of bricks and if a builder proposes building a house of gold bars, I will not pay him more.

I think you need to get more into the technical part, that would be to choose suitable platforms. Third-party widgets can not be more complex and better than Wordpress plug-ins, if only because they are created on javascript and not on php. Muse does not have bootstrap, which greatly complicates the development. The speed of loading sites made in the Muse is significantly worse than that of joomla or Wordpress with the same amount of content and scripts...

I can continue to endlessly argue that your approach is wrong and therefore you can not get for it the money you want.

You have only one option for this - long and hard work for pennies, earning yourself a name. And when you earn a name, you can take money for a name.

... Or you can take in the work of various CMS and start earning today. I'll tell you the secret - 99% of sites and clients do not need super complex design. They are completely satisfied with the design that can be easily and quickly done with components such as Divi (Wordpress) and SP PAGE BUILDER (joomla). And plus this is the full power of the functional of these systems, with more than 15 years of development experience.

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New Here ,
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First of all, I really thank You for the answer. I can accept Your point, but there are some things which should be cleared.

1.) I was asking what market area I should reach.

2.) I was also asking for the average price depending on the country You are living in.

3.) As I already told You, I have no problems with Wordpress and Divi, they are good softwares, but You can't go below a price for a well-designed Wordpress site, either. And if it takes about a month, You will have to charge mimimum 800 USD, independently of the country You live in.

4.) I've been in this sector (internet, computers, operating systems, mutimedia, graphic design, etc.) for 15 years, and I belong to the younger generation. (If everything is included, my years at the university, university courses abroad, 2 foreign languages that I can speak (and write) perfectly.)

I already installed OS/2 Warp on the IBM Aptiva computers on partitioned disks to test it when I was in the  2nd grade (of the six) in the high school, so in some areas I have a quite good knowledge. Though I've learned programming at different universities, I don't consider myself a professional programmer, and I'm rather interested in the design and the artistic part of it (multimedia).

According to what You say, it doesn't have a future (regarding the market and the people willing to invest money into their companies).

This is really disappointing, because as I told You, I have all the technical requirements needed to create excellent sites.

Adobe Muse is a quite good tool to design sophisticated sites in it, but I can also apply the best widgets that can be integrated, and which work seamlessly with the site. It doesn't matter if it is in JAVA or PHP, both can be done via Muse widgets. If it is required, I can attach the whole page to a fully functional CMS that can be extended with other functions, such as database, etc.

So, the problem is not what I am working in, bacause it just makes easier my work. If somebody makes web content with Wordpress and Divi, it can also be made quite well, but not in 5 days, because if that is the case, then there is something seriously wrong about it, and I can't take this type of work. For the simple reason, because it can't be made properly in such a short time. So, if You think I should stand in the line of cheap and fast designers, then I'm sure You're wrong. There are about 20 who advertise cheap and fast (and most of them don't function properly - it doesn't matter whether it is Wordpress or Drupal). This way I can't create quality content, can't really make developments in my own work, and to tell the truth, if there are pennies in it, it is really not worth to deal with it (and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't consider money in the 1st place).

If that would be the case, no one would use better Muse or premium 3rd Party Wordpress plugins, etc. Nobody would have news streams, news sites, high quality animations, and there are websites on the net from 10.000 USD to really big sums. According to what You say there is no need to fulfill higher graphical, multimedia, vide demands. I doubt it, because there has to be. My question was what kind of advertising, optimization, client-searching method is needed for this.

I've heard of individuals and companies which had above 5000-10000 USD orders, and that must be true. Please, take a look at these pages:

For example in Hungary:

www.oander.hu

www.sikermarketing.hu

in Germany:

360° Online-Marketing ★ Internetagentur

even in Spain most of the companies make a presentation site for 1000 Euro (which consists of 5 pages)

Agencia de inbound Marketing y Comunicación en Malaga: iMeelZ

And not only agencies, but individuals can create very serious web-content, too. I - and most specialists - wouldn't like to compete with WIX, because most people know whether it is enough for them, or not. In this leauge it is not worth to compete.

I would have another question. Which country are You located in? Of course, if You don't want to tell me, You don't have to. I'm asking this because if You are in Central or Eastern Europe, then people can't or don't want to pay more for professional sites. Post-communist countries tend to have a much lower solvency than for example countries in Western Europe, the US or the Far-East. Unfortunately that is the case, and besides a couple of companies, people don't want to invest into bigger projects or better appearance. But then, please, don't project it to most of the countries. It wasn't very reassuring what You said, and yes, I've already had more serious work as I told You.

It is as much as saying that there is no need for Adobe Muse, no need for professional programs, no need for better visualization, no need for superb animations or individual design.

I'll tell You an example: there are a lot of confectioneries in our country, but only 5 percent or 10 percent is quite good and has a good quality. Why, because for 1 USD You can't offer superb cakes or desserts, just supplementary materials can be added for this price, for example vegetable butter instead of real butter, vegatable whipping cream instead of real whipping cream, low quality jams instead of real marmalade. For 2 or 3 USD, You can do that. And in the last 10-15 years people have got fed up with this rubbish, and those providing better quality and a better choice, managed to get more customers, and they are profitable. Of course, they managed to target those areas which can pay more for their products.

This would be my case, too. I would also like to target the circle of clients mentioned above. The internet is of basic importance nowadays, there has to be a lot of segments which would require quality web content.

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Guide ,
Jul 16, 2017

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I've heard of individuals and companies which had above 5000-10000 USD orders, and that must be true. Please, take a look at these pages:

For example in Hungary:

This is not an amazing price for a good project. But there are not many such customers. And in order that you could take such prices, and find such customers you need the name and portfolio. You have to work a long time for free for this, аs happens with every artist. There are no advertising sites with "fat" customers.

I'm from Russia. I work with a team of programmers. 10 000$ - this is an average price tag for the team. If we consider the fact that only an annual license under which CMS is being developed is worth more than $ 20,000.

5874776c09.png

I have already described the practice of work.

In Muse we design and UX design, and coordinate it with the customer. (Do this in the Muse an order of magnitude faster than in Photoshop and does not require programmers at the stage of agreement with the customer, which greatly accelerates and reduces the cost of development in general). After that, the encoders come in, who write the code from scratch, for the CMS chosen by the customer, using Muse simply as a prototype design. The code that Muse generates is completely unsuitable for this. You are the first who believes that the code of the Muse is excellent . You must be still unfamiliar with it illnesses, which are not treated.
If you use Muse's code in your work, sooner or later you will have to remake everything from scratch or get a big conflict with customers. Believe me, I've already been through all this. Muse is just a design and it's much better than photoshop - this is its plus, but not in the code..

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New Here ,
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Thanks for the detailed answer.

I would just add some things

You are the first who believes that the code of the Muse is excellent.

No, I don't think the code of Muse is excellent, but as I told You, I can't do everything on my own, even smaller companies don't code line-to-line. I didn't intend to change the code Muse produces, this is not my task (I told You what my main areas are). I have to rely (and several others do that) on applications and already developed programs. Working this way also has to have a decent price, because it also takes time, and the result is good in most of the cases. I'm not a Muse-fan, it is just one of the programs I use, but it can be extended with already developed products, and You can create complex sites. With Wordpress and Divi, too, but as I already mentioned, it will also take time.

The main thing here is: Not all design companies and web-content creating companies have to work with complicated coding, and as I showed You, there are some which can work this way. That is also related to individuals. Let's be frank, coding can be very frustrating and a quite ungrateful task from the point of view of a designer and web-content creator. So, I don't have any intention to change Muse code, and I don't even recommend anyone to try to change it deeply, because changing a proprietary code is not the best solution. I already mentioned which combinations I use and which combinations others use who don't necessarily make coding at a complex level, very good design software + 3rd party widgets + premium widgets. Every area has its (or should have) its own specialist. The point here is: demand and supply.

There wouldn't be premium widgets if it had no sense, there wouldn't be premium extenions for Muse or Wordpress if there was no market for it.

As I see there is a big problem with people here (in Hungary). They don't really know what they want, they want the cheapest (doesn't matter if it doesn't work properly, they will realize it only later (I've already had some cases like these.), most of them just want price offers, so this way You can't work properly. You can't work at all if You don't have trustworthy clients.

Russia is a whole other case, though there is a wide gap between those who are willing to pay and those who are not, but there is a much bigger market, and last but not least there are a lot of people who can really pay for the services.

I didn't mean advertising would solve the whole problem, but I've had clients through Google Adwords who were looking for more serious work. The problem is: Adwords is too expensive for getting clicked down or wasting money for idiotic keywords, like ("free internet design, free webdesign, free homepage, etc.) I have not even talked about the fact that there were not much interest in the last 2 months.

So, I can't do that I work for absolutely free now (I could, but it wouldn't have any sense at all.) The other thing I can't do is that I create the cheapest websites, because this way I can't develop in my own area (areas).

Just, some examples from the advertisements:

Screen Shot 2017-07-16 at 2.10.01 PM.pngScreen Shot 2017-07-16 at 2.10.13 PM.pngScreen Shot 2017-07-16 at 2.10.35 PM.pngScreen Shot 2017-07-16 at 2.10.41 PM.png

One of these examples is:

www.onlinevagyok.hu (They are advertising this on Google.)

It offers pages for 180 USD, but works as following:

It is obvious I can't make this type of service at this price, it wouldn't have any sense, in addition I also have to mention I feel some uncertainty while browsing a page created in a fast way, by an unstable system.

This is also part of the problem, most of the so-called providers who apply Wordpress or Drupal, want to make it in 4-5 days, that's not even enough for a template to make it function properly.

So, the question is open: what can be done to provide a quality service at a reasonable (or normal price) so that it will be operable?

Is it worth to do it, and if yes, where? I'm asking this, because then organic search results should be improved in these countries or areas. (I know some individuals or smaller companies abroad who can work at middle-prices. This means, not the highest price, but decent sums.

These are my questions.

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xy99379439  wrote

So, the question is open: what can be done to provide a quality service at a reasonable (or normal price) so that it will be operable?

Is it worth to do it, and if yes, where?

post some of your designs so people can see your work... good examples of Muse websites;

https://musewidgets.com/collections/site-of-the-day

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New Here ,
Jul 14, 2017

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I would have another question, what do You consider reasonable prices for different sites and web-content? This is a very important question for a lot of people, I think. Of course, it depends on which country You live in, but I think of US and average European prices.

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New Here ,
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I would be really helpful if someone could answer these questions.

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xy99379439  wrote

At our company a well-designed, stable site costs about 800 dollars. That means one month work, not only the design, but also the integration. A webstore costs about 2000 dollars with integrated elements and a good wireframe as background.

example please?.

xy99379439  wrote

A registration system which also requires a database, takes about 3 months, the price costs about 2500 USD.

We also managed to make a registration system which was designed in Muse and a database-driven CMS was connected to it.

example =?

If I want a hotel booking system, a artist portfolio for jaz players or a site to sell houses to people moving here from other states then why would I want your design team?

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I don't really understand these questions. Our site is www.visualtech.hu or www.visual-tech.eu

For example there are 2 types of blogs embedded into our site. One is BLOG, the other is "HÍREK" (in English NEWS)

Because of confidential agreements I can't give You the address of the registration system, but believe me, there is one, and it is functioning. You put these questions as if it was unbelievable. I didn't say, we're writing HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP from the beginning to the end, but neither do other major companies who are advertising themselves cheaper, but their systems are more unstable as I told You. Of course I know Muse is a design tool, but we require it to make graphic design more precise, than in the case of an online visual page builder.

There are a lot of examples which offer solutions for Muse. Why do You expect from me to write individual applications when other major companies operating with 50-100.000 USD annual income don't make it, either. That's why there are professional module-providers which can be integrated. I already told You that. Since there is a Wordpress-connectivity to Muse, there are many options to use high-quality Wordpress modules, if needed database-modules, too. By the way, I have seen many open-source code site collapses which were made in 5 days, but Muse seemed to be more stable so far.

For example we made a registration system for www.ttkconsulting.hu

The problem is, instead of answering my questions regarding obtaining quality clients and the prices, You put questions that are obvious, I think, and I already told You what the problem is.

So, could You tell me what average prices there should be - or are - where - for example - Your are located? Because - as I told You - I'd like to know what can really be done with this business. Is it worth it - or not? I'm a Muse subscriber, and have subscriptions to 3 major platforms, but if there is no money in it, then I'll think about it. I think I have the right - as a subscriber - to know what the situation is.

Please, try to answer these questions.

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Adding some other comments to it, I don' think a film director has to manufacture the camcorder and all the electronic equipments to make a movie.

For example, a multimedia company doesn't have write Adobe After Effects or Discreet Combustion on its own to produce first class content.

Muse is designing without the hassle of HTML, CSS in a desktop program.

Because of today's high graphical and multimedia requirement, we - and a lot of other individuals and companies - can't work with line-to line programming. Either You use Wordpress,etc. and the different visual editors or this. For example placing an item in Muse can be done very precisely without a single line of code. A very few editors can do this in a Desktop application.

So, we chose Muse over other programs. I'm sure this is not the problem.

Muse is a design software, but there are many modules that can be integrated, even there is a Wordpress-connectivity.

Muse-themes, Musegain, Qooqee, Muse for you have several hundreds of customers on their forums. If it didn't mean anything, they - and I - wouldn'tbe subscribers. They have some really good widgets. Some even more elaborate than the widgets for Wordpress.

When I asked some Adobe partners and official wen organizations, they all told I can build a business around Muse and other applications.

The main problem here is that they prefer the cheaper, more unstable free source code sites. (We offer everything in functionality that others do). Should we advertise it in other countries, because we'd like to make it profitable, and we can't go below these prices since it takes time to make a well-designed web content. I work quite fast, but in most of the cases it can't be done in a week or two weeks.

I hope You can understand my question.So, what advertising platform do you recommend to obtain "normal" clients, and what is the average price of a well-designed site in the country You live in - from basic to more complex?

For example, there are many sites which were created by agencies on Adobe Muse Site of the Day, from the US, Argentina to the U.K. or Germany. Nobody would be a subscriber if it wasn't worth it. Even Business Catalyst is used by some companies despite the fact that it is still less-known than for example Woocommerce or Magenta. Every service has its place if it is a good service.

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LEGEND ,
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Maybe you are asking yourself the wrong questions?

Instead of asking how you can find more clients, you should be asking what your exclusive selling points are, as from what you offer, even at the price you are offering, you are not offering anything that someone cannot get from the local designer working from home.

The working from home part is also important, as such a designer has cut their overheads to the minimum. They can meet with clients face to face if required, (something you cannot do) and just as importantly, the clients can get feedback from others who have used that local designers services.

Web design, for small sites is rapidly becomming an over filled proffession, in which many are having difficulty in maintaining their current client base, let alone increasing it. Unless you can offer something more than others using programs like Muse or even cms's such as wordpress, or can move into a specialised market, growing a client base for small static or open source based cms sites, is becomming a loosing strategy for many.

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