Color Management Issue Photoshop

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

I have a very peculiar color managment issue I thought might be intersting to discuss, I am thankful for all the intel I may get. 

I recently calibrated my monitors, a BenQ SW270C and A BenQ 2700 with my SpyderX5. 

Afterwards the display of the same image in different applications was varied.

Whilst my Adobe RGB Masterfiles looked flat in Photoshop their sRGB Files (no color manegment saved) looked as saturated as they where supposed to in PS and Firefox. In Chrome I had to force the monitor profile to make them appear as intended. However I was bummed out by the fact that there was a difference between the master file and the saved sRGB export which never had been distinguishable before I did the monitor calibration.

To wipe the slate clean I simply deleted the monitor profiles. Now the problems have sort of reversed. Without the monitor profile Photoshop seems to oversaturate my sRGB export files whilst the Windows Preview, Firefox and Chrome show the image the same and alike what Photoshop shows my masterfiles to look like. Interestingly enough, when I export one of my masterfiles into sRGB and then open the file in photoshop the colors again look oversatureated. I wonder how to fix this so that at least all the files look the same again for starters.

Slowly, I am starting to confuse what the files are supposed to look like in the first place.

Oh, I use PS 25.0.0 and Win10.

[D Fosse]

I suspect the Adobe RGB file displayed in Photoshop, which you describe as "flat", is in fact the correct representation.

Everything else can be explained by missing color management on a wide gamut monitor which the SW270 is.

On a wide gamut monitor without color management, sRGB will be oversaturated. That part is normal. It's also normal that the same thing happens if you delete you monitor profile, because it then gets replaced by sRGB. That's the wrong profile for that monitor. Same result.

Never, ever, save a file without an embedded profile. Never.

But that's what you did. In that case Firefox will, at default settings, display without any color management at all - oversaturated.

To sum up: when you have a wide gamut monitor, you must have full color management at all times. You must embed the profile, you must have a valid and correct monitor profile - and you can only use applications that have full color management support. That's the long and short of it.

---

(At first I thought this was the usual buggy BenQ software - because it is, and has been for a long time, unless they've fixed it recently. There's been a flood of reports of problems with the BenQ software over many years. I've also noticed that Spyders have a somewhat poor reputation, but I'm not so sure about the validity of that. I take that with a grain of salt. I don't have any direct experience with either.

Anyway, when I read closer, it occurred to me that this all sounds like expected behavior. You just mistakenly assume that the oversaturated version is how it should be. But I don't think so.)

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

"On a wide gamut monitor without color management, sRGB will be oversaturated. That part is normal. It's also normal that the same thing happens if you delete you monitor profile, because it then gets replaced by sRGB. That's the wrong profile for that monitor. Same result."

Well, both monitors are currently set to Adobe RGB. And other than Photoshop the sRGB Files look correct now (or at least like the Adobe RGB Files does in PS), which puzzles me. 

"Never, ever, save a file without an embedded profile. Never."

I remeber doing that because if I did not all apps and browsers would display the colors differently compared to my Photoshop Masterfile or the sRGB in PS - my assumption was because they don't have the monitorprofile I used to edit it, so they look different in say Instagram.

"But that's what you did. In that case Firefox will, at default settings, display without any color management at all - oversaturated."

Currently, after deleting the profiles the color display of Firefox does match the Adobe RGB masterfile, which is also something that really puzzles me.

"To sum up: when you have a wide gamut monitor, you must have full color management at all times. You must embed the profile, you must have a valid and correct monitor profile - and you can only use applications that have full color management support. That's the long and short of it."

Well, before I re-calibrated my monitor (I simply let it slide for half a year) everything worked just fine the way I rolled. Meaning using monitor profiles editing in Adobe and outputting in "Internet Strandard sRGB" via "save for web" without color managment - as previously mentioned when compared to my phone or even my latop the colors looked alike without color managment but with the colormanagment selecting "Screen Colors" it looked odd and washed out. 

"(At first I thought this was the usual buggy BenQ software - because it is, and has been for a long time, unless they've fixed it recently. There's been a flood of reports of problems with the BenQ software over many years. I've also noticed that Spyders have a somewhat poor reputation, but I'm not so sure about the validity of that. I take that with a grain of salt. I don't have any direct experience with either.

Anyway, when I read closer, it occurred to me that this all sounds like expected behavior. You just mistakenly assume that the oversaturated version is how it should be. But I don't think so.)"

Yeah the problem is that at this point I don't really know what it is supposed to look like. I try to make it look like the files do on my other display devices like my phone essentially because I figured I never complained about colors there so yeah. 

Now my question is what to do. I will recalibrate my screens again I guess and see what happenes. Because as it is now it's really weird and I woulnd't know what to rely on.

[davescm]

@Nicolas Alexander Otto 

1. Calibrate and profile your monitor.

2. Then make sure all your images use an embedded colour profile (including those you export).

3. Ensure you only use colour managed applications (this is especially important with a wide gamut monitor).

4. Believe the Photoshop result - do not maladjust your image to match an uncalibrated monitor or a non colour managed application.

Colour Management simple explanation

Digital images are made up of numbers. In RGB mode, each pixel has a number representing Red, a number representing Green and a Number representing Blue. The problem comes in that different devices can be sent those same numbers but will show different colours. To see a demonstration of this, walk into your local T.V. shop and look at the different coloured pictures – all from the same material.

To ensure the output device is showing the correct colours then a colour management system needs to know two things.

1. What colours do the numbers in the document represent? 
This is the job of the document profile which describes the exact colour to be shown when Red=255 and what colour of white is meant when Red=255, Green = 255 and Blue =255. It also describes how the intermediate values move from 0 through to 255 – known as the tone response curve (or sometimes “gamma”).
Examples of colour spaces are (Adobe RGB1998, sRGB IEC61966-2.1)
With the information from the document profile, the colour management system knows what colour is actually represented by the pixel values in the document.

2. What colour will be displayed on the printer/monitor if it is sent certain pixel values?
   This is the job of the monitor/printer & paper profile. It should describe exactly what colours the device is capable of showing and, how the device will respond when sent certain values.
   So with a monitor profile that is built to represent the specific monitor (or a printer profile built to represent the specific printer, ink and paper combination) then the colour management system can predict exactly what colours will be shown if it sends specific pixel values to that device.
   
   So armed with those two profiles, the colour management system will convert the numbers in the document to the numbers that must be sent to the device in order that the correct colours are displayed.
   
   

So what can go wrong :

1. The colours look different in Photoshop, which is colour managed, to the colours in a different application which is not colour managed.
   This is not actually fault, but it is a commonly raised issue. It is the colour managed version which is correct – the none colour managed application is just sending the document RGB numbers to the output device regardless without any conversion regardless of what they represent in the document and the way they will be displayed on the output device.
   
   
2. The colour settings are changed in Photoshop without understanding what they are for.
   This results in the wrong profiles being used and therefore the wrong conversions and the wrong colours.
   If Photoshop is set to Preserve embedded profiles – it will use the colour profile within the document.
   
   
3. The profile for the output device is incorrect.
   The profile should represent the behaviour of the device exactly. If the wrong profile is used it will not. Equally if the settings on the device are changed in comparison to those settings when the profile was made, then the profile can no longer describe the behaviour of the device. Two examples would be using a printer profile designed for one paper, with a different paper. A second example would be using a monitor profile but changing the colour/contrast etc settings on the monitor.
   The monitor profile is set in the operating system (in Windows type colour management into the search bar) which leads to a potential further issue. Operating system updates can sometimes load a different monitor profile, or a broken profile, which no longer represents the actual monitor.

Colour management is simple to use provided the document profile is correct, always save or export with an embedded profile, and the monitor/printer profile is correct. All the math is done in the background.

I hope that helps

Dave

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Hey, Dave thanks for the input.

Currently the issue is that even in Photoshop it does not look alike. A sRGB file opened in Photoshop either with the "document profile" or with the "internet" sRGB profile do not match the master file which is in Adobe RGB, so even within Photoshop there is inconsitency which I cannot explain. The non colormanaged programs all look like the Adobe RGB Masterfile. Hence I am wondering where this now comes from. 

I could recalibrate my monitors again, but at this point I feel like somehow the monitor profile is not correctly sent to Adobe from Windows maybe? I mean both files - even though they are in different color spaces should look exactly the same, at least they used to for the past 5 years I used calibrated monitors and using that procedure.

[D Fosse]

These are the essential settings in Save For Web. Don't experiment. Set it like this:

Set the Photoshop status bar like this, so you know the correct profile is embedded:

And finally, there is no point in doing anything at all until you've run the BenQ software to profile your monitor at its current behavior (full native is the preferred monitor setting).

Relaunch Photoshop so that it can load your new monitor profile.

Until it's profiled, that monitor will not display correctly anywhere, under any circumstances.

Then you can look in Photoshop. If the BenQ software does what it's supposed to do, Photoshop is now your reference. Anything else is wrong.

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Thanks for the intel Fosse! Much appreciated. 

I recalibrated the monitors and used the save as method as described. With the embedded profile now the sRGB and adobeRGB mastfiles look alike. However all of the masterfiles look flat now and a tad bluer to the uncalibrated files that used to look alike my master files.

What I think is interesting is that if I use the "Screen Color" option in the save as dialogue it starts oversaturation the colors. i.e. matching what I see in Chrome and what I think is the intended color I would want, but I guess that is the wrong option as I would want to retain the pale look of my masterfile which all look way to pale to me and should look like what the "Screen Color" looks like. 

What still confounds me is that before calibrating my monitors everthing looked exactly alike hence I never changed anything in my procedure. How come that the unmanaged files look "oversaturated" now but not before that? 

Also even the managed file now looks oversaturated in Chrome - meaning that if others were to see that edited picture in chrome on my website it would appear oversaturated, correct? I guess that was the reason why I didn't embed it in the first place. I mean there is no use in editing something on a calibrated monitor if others don't see it the same way I do, I would imagine.

I still think something is odd. I am contemplating whether or not I can somehow wipe the slate clean and get back to waht my setup looked like before tha calibration when eveything looked vivid and alike. Although after what you wrote that would suggest that everything was uncalibrated and thus should've looked infact different which makes no sense to me somehow. If I took PS as a reference right now that would mean that all my master files over the past years actually look flatter than intended and I would've edited my files differently from what I saw ony my screen essentially, which would be mildly put a catastrophe.

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Now I have attached two files which are displayed differently in PS but not in Chrome - The first is with the document profile looking flat alike the photoshop master and the 2nd is using "screen color" looking as intended.

Now I would assume that in Chrome both should look identical while in firefox they do look differently. What I do not understand is how my photoshop files looked the same as the colorful version and now they do no longer. There is something that I must have done wrong for a long time then, somehow I don't want to believe my masterfiles are that flat, cause I know myself they always looked like the images on my homepage because those have not changed and used to look the same as my master files. What am I missing? 

[davescm]

Both of those images look the same and have the same colour profile. That could be the forum software. Can you save each with its own profile embedded and zip them up then send as an attachment

Dave

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

They do look identical, actually. I guess you are right. Sadly zip is not allowed here as it seems so here are the files (a third one without the color management) as a we transfer link: https://we.tl/t-azzzNpNCGK

https://nicolasalexanderotto.net/produkt/island-57/ 

This is what the image is supposed to look like and used to look like (even the adobe master file). Could it be that without any color managment what I saw in PS, Chrome and even Lightroom (which matched) simply tricked me into thinking they looked alike and just fine?

I must admit that I am starting to feel frustrated a bit.

[D Fosse]

 (a third one without the color management)

By @Nicolas Alexander Otto

That's pointless. You really need to stop using that as a reference for anything. You're just confusing yourself and digging yourself deeper and deeper into trouble. Anything that doesn't have full color management is wrong and will always be. Disregard it.

Get your color managed process up and running first, then we can look at the result.

You need to have:

1. an embedded profile in the document
2. a valid and correct monitor profile built on actually measuring the monitor
3. a color managed application that will convert from 1. into 2. and send those corrected values to the display

That's all there is to it. Check, check, check. If those three conditions are met, it has to display correctly, by definition.

Now, it could be that the BenQ software isn't working as it should, that there is something wrong with the profiles it makes, or that it fails to set the profile correctly up in Windows. But we cannot know that, because you're not sticking to correct (and very simple) procedure.

[davescm]

I downloaded your zipped files.
File DB-Document-Profile.jpg has an embedded sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile.

File DB-Screen-Color.jpg also has an embedded sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile.

So both files look and are identical (I proved this by dragging the layer from one onto the other and setting blend mode to difference. The entire image was black showing zero difference between those files

The third file DB-No-Management (with no profile embedded) is irrelevant as it will look different or the same depending on what profile is assigned when opening it.

I downloaded the image from your website and it does not have an embedded profile. I don't know what profile (if any) was used to make it as assigning  sRGB IEC61966-2.1 does show some differences between that and the earlier images.

The bottom line is (as stated by Dag)

a. Profile your monitor and trust what it shows you. (There are many  test images online if you want to check validity of your profile).

b. Work with an embedded profile

c. Always embed a profile in your images (for web use, convert to sRGB and Embed Profile are safe options)

Dave

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Thanks again for your patience, it is greatly appreciated!

I get where you are coming from and as long as I stick to the meothod you descibed with calibrated monitor, meaning flat master files - flat jpgs with embedded profile and then oversaturated files in Chrome (since it does not read the profile apparently) it works as described by the both of you.

Then how would I make sure that Chrome users would get the correct color values? The same goes for Thunderbird and Powepoint apparently since I got an image via mail yesterday with looked oversaturated in Thunderbird, flat in PS and then oversaturated again in Powerpoint?

And this would then mean that all the intended color values I worked with the past years were falsely displayed on my (previously calibrated) monitor and I edited all my images essentially without seeing their actual values due to a Calibration error? At this point I am just wondering why I never ran into that issue before and how to salvage the look of hundrets of edited images which apparently only are displayed as I intended without color managment. 

[davescm]

Chrome is colour managed. I don't use Chrome very often, I use Firefox, but just looked at my own website and images display identically in Firefox, Chrome and Photoshop.

The problem on your website, that you linked in your earlier post, is that the images do not have any profile embedded for the color management system to use. In that case it is prone to error as the browser has to assume a profile or just ignore colour management and display incorrectly and that depends on the browser settings.

Powerpoint is not colour managed - so for correct colour forget it. With a wide gamut monitor you must use colour managed applications.

In simple terms:

1. Calibrate and profile your monitor.

2. Trust Photoshop and adjust the image the way you want to see it in Photoshop. That could be flat or images that 'pop' it's entirely up to you.

3. When exporting a copy to use on the web, convert to sRGB and embed the profile

4. Ensure that your web software is not stripping out the profile when you upload your images. Easy to check - upload an image - download it and check the profile is intact.

That is it.

Dave

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

"

In simple terms:

1. Calibrate and profile your monitor.

2. Trust Photoshop and adjust the image the way you want to see it in Photoshop. That could be flat or images that 'pop' it's entirely up to you.

3. When exporting a copy to use on the web, convert to sRGB and embed the profile

4. Ensure that your web software is not stripping out the profile when you upload your images. Easy to check - upload an image - download it and check the profile is intact."

As far as these steps are concerned that is what I did for years and it worked just fine (although I must admit I did not add the profile) and everything looked the way it should and never knew it was an issue. I am really wondering what I did differently all the past years I simply can't wrap my head around this, everything used to look exatly as it should, until I recently calibrated my monitor again. Maybe I'll try a different Spyder later, borrowing one from a colleague and trying again.

Not using certain software, like Thunderbird, Powerpoint (which I use for my photography talks), Instagram, Premiere (I think it does have Color Managment though) and Chrome since a lot of folks and potential customers are using it does not really seem a viable option to mitigate this. As far as Chrome is concerned I've read that by adding a command you can force it to use the monitor profile with "Force color profile" but I do not assume any customers would do that on their own.

It's weird though since when I open a color managed image in Chrome it looks as it is supposed to (saturated) and in Firefox it is flat as it is in PS. So at least on my PC there is a difference. 

So essentially, there is no way to make sure that others do see what I see on my calibrated monitor if they use non colormanaged Software and Apps like Chrome or Instagram? 

[davescm]

Chrome is colour managed as is Firefox. You don't need to do anything - it will handle images with an embedded colour profile correctly (unless you have adjusted settings to force a profile other than the display).  If you are seeing an image with an embeded profile (not those on your website) differently in Chrome and Firefox and Firefox matches Photoshop then it suggests an issue with your installation of Chrome.
The browser settings are for how images without an embedded profile should be handled, but as a photographer you should not be presenting such images to potential customers. Always embed the profile.

As for Powerpoint, it is not colour managed and should not be used with a wide gamut display. It just sends the values in the document direct to the display ignoring both the document profile (which defines what the RGB values represent, and the display profile (which describes how values sent to it will be displayed).

You cannot control those who use unmanaged software and displays. The nearest you can do is convert the docs to sRGB as well as embedding the profile. That way those who do care about colour will see them correctly, those that don't but use narrow gamut monitors will see something close and those that don't but use wide gamut monitors without accurate profiles will view them incorrectly in the same way they will view other websites incorrectly.

Dave

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Thank you for the clarification. I guess this would be the way to go forward then. However that still does not explain why this has never shown up as an issue in years prior. 

Just technically speaking I could also simply abandon Adobe RGB and work entirely in sRGB when I set my Monitor to sRGB, loosing some leeway during the editing, but at least all outputs would potentially look the same no matter the display, software or device. I know that some folks even in the professional realm do this. 

I just want to make sure I do not run into an issue like this somewhere down the line. As I now apparently need to rework hundrets of files. 

[davescm]

'when I set my Monitor to sRGB'

Don't do this. When you set your monitor differently, you need a new profile as the profile no longer describes the monitor. I don't know about your particular model, but some do allow switching to different presets (such as the Eizo's I use) but at the same time they also load new calibration and profile settings to use a profile made with the monitor at each setting. Calibration and profiling has to be done for each monitor preset.  Photoshop also needs to be restarted each time so that it is using the correct profile

You can work in an sRGB document by all means (it will hav a narrower gamut than Adobe RGB but if your final destination is the web that may not matter) , but I would leave the monitor in the state it was in when you calibrated and profiled it. That way the profile correctly describes the monitor and colour management takes care of the conversion. None of that negates the need to embed the document profile in the image.

Dave

The only time I use my monitors in an sRGB preset is when I am forced to use software that does not properly colour manage the display but expects an sRGB monitor (some 3D software still does this). 

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Yeah of course I would recalibrate it when setting it to sRGB, I should've mentioned that. I just did some testing with various software and it seems that all my software does not display the color managment and looks like PS / Windows Preview and Firefox. Meaning tht Chrome, Premiere, After Effects, Thunderbird, Instagram and Powerpoint are not displaying the image as intended for me now, which kind of defeats the purpose of editing with calibrated monitors to begin with. 

Again I am absolurely confused why this has never been a problem until now for years and years. I will try updating my graphics cart drivers as well and see if that makes a difference because from what I gathered they do send the color profile to the various software.

This is a newly edited shot in Photoshop / Firefox and Chrome - with the embeded sRGB profile. you can see that the colors are more saturated in Chrome.

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

I found a video which seems to at least level the playing field: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITiV8Q0CiFY

When I do this all the outputs essentially look the same. However this goes against all that I have ever done in Photoshop thus far and everything that you guys have suggested. I would assume that now everything is essentially looking like it should on your monitor and software - but there would be no way to tell what it looks like on somebody elses output device. 

And thus far I have always used Adobe 1998 as a working space and sRGB as output. Funnily enough I still get the desired color when I export with "Screen Profile" instead of "Document Profile". I wonder why that is, I mean shouldn't Photoshop automatically load the screen profile? I mean why can I select the monitor profile in the color managment tab to begin with instead of Adobe 1998 if the colormanagment should be handled in the background by photoshop getting the monitor profile from the OS? Could it be that simply PS does not get the correct Monitor Profile after I recalibrated my monitor and thus Adobe 1998 looks off? 

I also updated my graphics card drivers which sadly did not fix the issue. Next is deleting all the profiles and photoshop and then start over. 

[davescm]

I was tempted to stop that video as soon as the presenter got to change colour settings for RGB to Monitor RGB Display . That turns off colour management and is about the worst advice that could be given. It guarantees that you are now working in a closed system and you will be adjusting images to your uncompensated monitor and they will look wrong elswhere.

I thought it couldn't get worse but then she goes on to tell people to change proof settings to Monitor colour which also defeats colour management.

Then she tells people to uncheck convert to sRGB when exporting. That means images that she creates in her Monitor profile are being exported with no profile and will look incorrect in every browser out there apart from her own.

It is the worst advice video I have seen for a long time. Basically it is saying, despite the ICC developing a worldwide colour management system that allows people to confidently exchange images and get correct colour across different studios, print houses etc and that system being supported in Photoshop, Lightroom, InDesign, browsers etc - turn all that off.

In case anyone else comes across this thread - don't bother watching that video - it should be removed.

Dave

[davescm]

Colour management is not complicated. If you have one application that does not appear to be working properly, in your case Chrome, take a close look at that application. Years ago, Chrome used to ignore the monitor profile and just assume sRGB, but that was fixed years ago and now it uses the monitor profile in the system the same as other colour managed applications.
One additional thought - make sure you are creating v2 profiles in your calibration and profiling software. There may be a choice between v2 and v4.  Most applications have no issues with v2.

Dave

[D Fosse]

I couldn't even bear to watch that video <shudder> ... x-/

@Nicolas Alexander Otto - you really need to stop making all these assumptions! Please, just stop, go back to start and don't assume anything. Read davescm's and my posts again, carefully. We've basically been saying the same thing over and over again.

This isn't complicated. It's really simple. You just need to let color management work as it's supposed to, instead of throwing all these wrenches into the machine.

[Nicolas Alexander Otto]

Thank yet again for your patience and sticking with me. And sorry for the video, I thought it was some weird advice I just wanted to bring it to your attention.

D Fosse, I understood what you and Dave have written it does however not leave to the outcome that I would want (I know I am sorry but maybe that is just not possible with color managment?), meaning that the images are looking as they do in Photoshop in all different output media I use, not only Chrome, but Instagram, Power Point, Premiere and so on - which does defeat the purpose of doing color managment for me as those are my main forms of digital output.I do occasionally work for magazines and sell prints but I do that with the ICC profiles of said printers and magazines (with the embedded profile of course). Would it be possible to work in color managment for print and without for digital (since none of the output media I use apparently reads the embedded color profile anyway).

Is there away to simulate what the image will look like without color managment on those output media in photoshop whilst editing the files via Soft Proofing maybe? As some one who mainly outputs digitally it is important to me that I can anticipate what the colors will look like in Power Point, Premiere, Chrome, Instagram and the like. 

Simply reinstalling Photoshop and deleting the Spyder Utility at least led to all the files looking alike no matter what app or profile again - but now of course I do not have any color managment. Still, at least this is a solid foundation to start. 

After profiling both screens with the Spyder Elite again however it seems like the PS files look flat again, and all the other output media look oversaturated again. Leaving me where I started. I wonder what I did differently the past 8 years since I moved to a BenQ Monitor and Spyder that I never came across this.

Again thank you so much for your patience and time.

[davescm]

You listed some applications.

Photoshop will show correct colour if set up correctly i.e. correct monitor profile in OS and document has a profile.
Firefox will show docs with embedded profile correctly

Chrome will show docs with embedded profile correctly (if yours does not try uninstalling and reinstalling Chrome)

Powerpoint is not colour managed - it is not suitable for displaying colour critical images on a wide gamut display.

Premiere, in its current version, should take docs with an embedded profile and display them correctly on your display using the display monitor but rendered output video will be to a specific video format and video does not use  ICC colour management. Video players rely on monitors calibrated to video standards (for normal mp4s use REC709)

Instagram - I don't use so cannot comment.

'Would it be possible to work in color managment for print and without for digital...'

You would be creating a rod for your own back trying to mix the two.

'.. none of the output media I use apparently reads the embedded color profile anyway...'

That is not correct, you publish on the web. I viewed your site on calibrated and profiled monitors using a colour managed browser. The issue was your images did not have an embedded profile.

'Is there away to simulate what the image will look like without color managment'
You can softproof to monitor colour to do that, but will only show what the image will look like on your monitor with its current preset. Anywhere else - it will look different.

Dave