Photoshop Color Management no longer Color Matching

[rick3403]

I am in the middle of printing for an exhibition using an iMac with an Epson 7900 printer.  I have been using this printer for years in conjuntion with photoshop.  Color management is and has been set for Photoshop to manage color.  It is set for the paper I am using Moab Exhibition Luster.  Halfway through printing this group of prints the prints turned dark, too much black ink.  I went through cleaning and resetting everything on the printer.  I was even told that the print heads were shot.  Then I tried having the printer manage the color.  It is a much better print, but not an exact match, so I downloaded and tried printing with the Epson Print Layout App.  It prints all the colors correctly, but needed a litle tweaking to get a match.  Realizing at that point the problem was not my printer, it had something to do with Photoshop, I contacted Adobe support.  They were very little help, but I did discover that the latest Photoshop 2021 would not work in OSX 10 or earlier, which is what they recommended for a fix.  Even though everything was fine printing with Photoshop 2020, then suddenly not.  I upgraded, rather reluctantly, to Mac OSX 11, Big Sur.  Then installed the latest Photoshop, uninstalled the print driver, reinstalled the recent print driver for OSX 11, and even deleted the Moab ICC file and copied a newly download ICC file.  Color Managehent still does not match the image on the screen.  I am a professional photograph and have been printing with color management for decades.  I keep my monitor calibration up to date.  These are photographs I have printed before and they have always matched what I see on screen.  Why should the prints suddenly not match using Photoshop color management, but are fine using another App?

[TheDigitalDog]

Display and print don't match, despite calibration, it's the calibration settings. See:

Why are my prints too dark or don't match the display?
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013
In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4

[rick3403]

Thank you.  This is not a calibration issue.  I have been using color management and my prints were matching the screen.  The suddenly the prints changed using Photoshop to manage the color.  They will print with a different App.

[rick3403]

There have been several people posting problems they are having with Photoshop under this issue I have posted.  They have received answers to their questions from the Adobe Professional Community, and I hope their issues have been solved.  Would someone from the Adobe Professional Community please address the original issue that I posted.  Thank you.

[TheDigitalDog]

There is absolutely no difference in Big Sur and Photoshop printing using color management in terms of some 'bug' in either. 

What you can and should do is examine if there is an issue with the Epson print driver by doing this and install both drivers (from Epson) again: 

1.Delete all instances of Epson printers from System Preferences>Print & Fax.


2.Then go to /Library/Printers and toss the whole Epson folder.


3.Toss LFP Remote Panel (IF you are using this utility for your printer).


4.Then reinstall drivers from Epson and never Apple.


When you go back to Print & Fax to add the printer, on 10.X I had to wait almost a minute before the IP version of the printer showed up, whereas the Bonjour one shows up right away. Then add the IP instance of the printer. This is for printers on a network.

Then re-install LFP Remote Panel if you use it with this printer.

NOTE: IF you have more than one Epson printer, you need to install the driver in the order of their release! Older then newer or you run into issues (eg, install 4800 before you’d install 3880).

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@rick3403 wrote:

These are photographs I have printed before and they have always matched what I see on screen

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Forget the screen for now. Does the OLD print and the NEW print match? 

[rick3403]

The new prints do not match the old prints.  

I removed all Epson software and the the printer driver.  Tthen deleted the Epson folder.  All of which, I did this before.  Then I reinstalled the driver and the software.  The prints using Photoshop are still too black and do not match the previous prints.  However, I printed again from the Epson Print Layout software and that print matches.

[TheDigitalDog]

Can you post screen grabs of both in terms of setup?

Epson Print Layout uses a different CMM (it's not ACE) so this could be a Black Point Compensation issue; what Rendering Intent is selected?

[rick3403]

I am using Perceptual and Black Point Compensation as I always have.  That has not changed with the prints before and now.

[TheDigitalDog]

First, I just used the last release of Photoshop 2021 and Epson Print Layout (1.5.2) using a color reference image and the two prints match exactly. Perceptual with BPC. So there is no issue on this end under Big Sur (latest version). 

The test image was: 

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

Next, in your screen capture, I have n o idea how you setup Photoshop's print driver but the bottom line is, with an Epson 3880, Big Sur, Photoshop and Epson Print Layout (and my own custom ICC printer profile for Luster paper), the two match. There's no 'issue' per se with Photoshop.

[rick3403]

My setting are the same as they were two weeks ago.  The only difference was that I was using OSX 10 with Photoshop 2020.  Every print was correct and then one day they were not.  Now I have installed OSX 11 and Photoshop 2021 as per Adobe Support recommendation.  Nothing changed by doing that The prints look the same as they did when the problem started, too black.  This tells me there is something that changed in Photoshop, but I have not changed any of my settings. 

What are you referring to when you say, "I have no idea how you setup Photoshop's print driver."  What Photoshop print driver?  There is an Epson printer driver for the 7900.

[TheDigitalDog]

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@rick3403 wrote:

My setting are the same as they were two weeks ago.  The only difference was that I was using OSX 10 with Photoshop 2020.

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Can't replicate your issue with either Photoshop 2021, Epson Print Utility or an Epson Pro printer.

To setup Photoshop's print driver setting, you click on this of course and then screen grab all the pertinent settings that affect output:

 

ALL my settings are correct, in both locations, both prints match and both prints match older prints of the same document. 

Again, I can't find anything wrong with Photoshop printing with color profiles. Nor EPL. 

Further, I don't know what 'Too Black' means vesus 'too dark'. 

My output is neither and appear as they should with such a color reference image. 

[rick3403]

Too black is too dark.  Looks like too much black ink.  Colors are muddy.  Needless to say they do not match want has been printed previously or the prints from Epson Print Layout.  I have been trying to upload the 65 KB screen shots, to no avail.  I will send this and continue trying.

[TheDigitalDog]

2nd screen capture, turn off 16-bit check box, any difference? 

[rick3403]

Well, that corrected it.  I must ask, why did you suggest turning 16-bit off?  I have had that checked for years now and no problems.  The reason it was checked is that I have noticed a slight difference in the highlights and shadows of 16-bit images.  Why would this suddenly have caused the color to be off?

[TheDigitalDog · Accepted solution]

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@rick3403 wrote:

Well, that corrected it.  I must ask, why did you suggest turning 16-bit off?  I have had that checked for years now and no problems.  The reason it was checked is that I have noticed a slight difference in the highlights and shadows of 16-bit images.  Why would this suddenly have caused the color to be off?

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You turn it off because it doesn't do a darn thing for the output for one. And I've output 16-bit targets and then the same as 8-bits per color, measured them with a Spectrophotometer and the colorimetric differences are invisible. The option, which is now gone from more modern Epson printers, and was never an option outside the Mac drivers doesn't do anything. 

The 2nd reason to turn it off is it fixes a BUG in the driver that made your prints look wrong. 

[rick3403]

Thanks so much, you saved my exhibit!!!  The prints are perfect again.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hey Rick,

glad that’s fixed

it helps if you mark the most helpful andswer as correct, that allows others with similar issues to see the solution that works.

I have marked Andrews reply as correct for you

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[12293]

I too am a professional photographer printing an accurate, color-managed workflow on Mac/Epson for decades. (That all ended when I started renting Photoshop and Lightroom.) So, if it's true that a 16 bit output "doesn't do a darn thing for the output" why should turning it off make any difference? Sounds like an Adobe or Eposn "feature" (for Mac users?) not a BUG. 

[NB, colourmanagement net]

@12293 as I understand it, there's little point in sending 16 bit data to a print driver. I don't see any reason why turning 16 bit off in the print process should make a difference. Can you please describe the difference you are seeing between having 16 bit on and off.

IF there is a difference in the appearance in print, then it seems Andrew (digidog) is right - there's a bug, the appearance should be identical as Andrew's earlier measured tests showed. 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net - adobe forum volunteer - co-author: 'getting colour right'
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hi Rick

If Amdrew (DigitalDog) can't reproduce your issue then it's perhaps it's a unique issue at your end.

Andrew is highly expert when it comes to this subject.

I couldn’t get those 4 screenshots of yours to open [or download] unfortunately.

I wonder if this may help:

You'll be aware, I'm sure, that the selected media name in the driver must match the selection made when profiling.

Is the media name you selected previously actually there in the list? Are you positive that you're selecting the exact same media name? 

IF the media names listed differ (and have been simplified) then you are perhaps inadvertently usign the Gimp/ Gutenprint driver rather than Epson's own. It's not just a matter of installing Epson's software, you have to select it too. [in installed printers] I'm not running Big Sur here (I too am reluctant) but I do know it's very important to use Epson's own driver software.

I tripped over this myself on a client site, the driver looked different and I put it down to an OSX update imposed style. 

I hope this helps
neil barstow, colourmanagement net :: adobe forum volunteer
google me "neil barstow colourmanagement" for lots of free articles on colour management
[please only use the blue reply button at the top of the page, this maintains the original thread title and chronological order of posts]

[Mike Haverkate]

I'm just reading this thread of info concerning your dark printing.  I have just experienced the same thing.  Everything printing really well, and then NOT.  Muddy dark prints.

I too use Photoshop to control the color and print settings.  

Did you find it was JUST the 16 bit box checked?  or do you thing installing the lates Mac OS and reinstalling the drivers made a difference too?

I'm about to go out to the studio to see if I've inadvertantly checked any boxes.  I don't remember seeing the 16 bit box in the print settings, but I'll look for it.

Are things still printing ok for you?

Kelly

[rick3403]

I am sorry to only now be replying to your question.  I have been on an extended trip without any technology, except my camera.  Yes, unchecking the16- bit box fixed the problem.  There must have been a change in Photoshop 2020, because I never had a color match problem with the 16-bit box checked before the upgrade.  There was a difference, prior to this upgrade, with the detail in a large print, no difference now.  A frustrating issue to confront.