Welcome Dialog

Welcome to the Community!

We have a brand new look! Take a tour with us and explore the latest updates on Adobe Support Community.


Photoshop .psd in CMYK dropping 100K Blacks on Save As FOGRA39 PDF. Why?

Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I have a multi layer PSD in Photoshop that contains two layers (text and a barcode) that I need to be in 100K Black i.e. C0M0Y0K100. Within the documents they show as 100K black via 'Info'. The document is set in CMYK. I Flatten,  choose to Save As a Photoshop PDF. I have tow Options to tick:

 

Use Proof Setup: Working CMYK or the ICC Profile SWOP (Coated). I choose the former. I Click Save. 

 

I choose PDF/X-1a:2001 I change Ouput to Convert to Destination and to FOGRA39. (As requested by my printer). I Save it. 

 

I open the PDF In Acrobat Pro DC and check the Ouput Preview only to find that both elements have changed from 100K black to rich black. 

 

How do I prevent this from happening?

 

 

TOPICS
Windows

Views

88

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 1 Correct answer

Community Beginner , Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021
I did 'assign' the FOGRA39 profile to the .PSD and perhaps I got lucky? I then Saved as a PDF with the FOGRA39 profile ticked. I chose not to convert colour. Hey presto, I now have 100K blacks on the Acrobat Output View when viewed as the FOGRA39 profile.  Problem solved. So the key is to create the document in the correct profile on creation. On this occasion the design process started before the client had chosen their supplier. Very pleased it is possible. 

Likes

Translate

Translate
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

SWOP isn't going to do what you desire by design. That's the first issue.

You'll need (and in theory can create using the very old Classic CMYK engine in Photoshop) a recipe that maps RGB 0/0/0 to CMY0/K100. 

Or maybe: 

https://www.clashgraphics.com/printing-tips/printing-true-rich-black-and-when-to-use-it/

Easier and less possbility for issues: Provide a tagged RGB document to the printer; let them deal with the conversions. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks for this. I'm 'progressing'. I Assigned the Photoshop 4 CMYK profile to the .PSD. It was previously the Working CMYK Swop 2. Saving it now, with no conversion, maintains the 100K blacks when I check the output in Acrobat. The final stage will be figuring out how to get it into the FOGRA39 colourspace and maintain/convert those blacks. 

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

" I Assigned the Photoshop 4 CMYK profile to the .PSD...."  No, assign the FOGRA39 profile right at the start. Otherwise you have just moved your problem around. The aim has to be to have NO CONVERSION, since conversion will break your CMYK numbers, as it is supposed to.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

No reason to assign (and that's often very dangerous: http://digitaldog.net/files/06AssignProfileCommand.pdf). Assign doesn't change the data whatsoever. It simply changes the meaning of the exiting values. 

 

If you want to and can 'start from scratch' in Photoshop, in CMYK, start with the CMYK color space as you desire: FOGRA39.

 

From there, I assume again, you are creating everything inside Photoshop; no images from RGB etc. 

Again, if you start with the type tool, you can define any CMYK values you wish and fill the text with those values IN FOGRA39. 

 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Beginner ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I did 'assign' the FOGRA39 profile to the .PSD and perhaps I got lucky? I then Saved as a PDF with the FOGRA39 profile ticked. I chose not to convert colour. Hey presto, I now have 100K blacks on the Acrobat Output View when viewed as the FOGRA39 profile. 

 

Problem solved. So the key is to create the document in the correct profile on creation. On this occasion the design process started before the client had chosen their supplier. Very pleased it is possible. 

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

LATEST

Glad it all worked out and before I leave, I want to make sure we're on the same page in terms of assigning (converting) and what happened. 


@richclarkimages wrote:

I did 'assign' the FOGRA39 profile to the .PSD and perhaps I got lucky? I then Saved as a PDF with the FOGRA39 profile ticked. I chose not to convert colour. Hey presto, I now have 100K blacks on the Acrobat Output View when viewed as the FOGRA39 profile. 


When you make a new document in Photoshop, you can pick a color model (RGB, CMYK etc) and then any color space you have a profile for that color model. You can make a new document in CMYK and SWOPv2, then Assign FOGRA39. If you had simply picked FOGRA39 when you made the new document, the results are identical. You can select the color space for that color model in the dropdown menu listing all the profiles for that color space you have. 

 

A new document in a color space contains no pixels. It's blank, ready for you to create pixels and if you do, those pixels are created in that color space. Copy and paste any existing data, that is not always (often) the case! 

If you copy and paste or drag and drop any pixels from outside that document, those pixels have (must have) an assigned profile. The scale of those existing numbers. If in anything but FOGRA39, they will be converted (unless you stop this process which is a bad idea) and the conversion will depend on the source color space. Paste sRGB or SWOP, that information (scale) is used for a conversion.

 

The need to assign a profile is incredibly unnecessary expect in two cases:

1. The image data has NO embedded color space. RGB or CMYK mystery meat. 

2. The image has the incorrect assigned color space. Rare but not impossible.

 

When you assign the color space to existing pixels, you are defining the scale of the existing numbers.

0/0/0/100 in SWOP and 0/0/0/100 in FOGRA39 are NOT the same color! Just as 1000 miles and 1000 kilometers are not the same distance despite sharing the same number (1000). The scales differ. 

 

Color spaces are just empty containers until a pixel finds its way into it. Pixels have numeric values, the values are defined by the color space. Assigning a profile provides the scale of any number in that document. 

So, you need to create a barcode or text, or paint something inside Photoshop directly, in FOGRA39. You simply create a new document and tell Photoshop, it should be FOGRA39. Done. You can, as I provided with the black square, define any set of CMYK values in that color space. Want to now add outside pixels? Different story. In all lieklyhood, a conversion from original color space (source) to new color space (destination) takes place; or it should (there is the ability within PS to honor the numbers; the color appearance will grealy suffer). 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Converting between two different CMYK spaces will change your colour values - by design. Whether your printer asks for it or not, converting to FOGRA39 will lose your 100%K. 

Solution: convert to FOGRA39 --first-- before you make any marks on the page. 

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Well yes, converting to FOGRA39 first makes total sense but just look how 0/0/0 RGB (black) converts to CMYK using that (RelCol):

RichBlack.jpg

IF the goal is RGB 0/0/0 to CMY0/K100%, this isn't going to fly. 

The Lab values also tell the full story; a black hole. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
LEGEND ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Indeed not. This is why the conversion must be first. Really, really first. No RGB values to convert or inherit, nothing. I observe the original post did not even mention what the working CMYK was, so I am assuming it was just randomly whatever Photoshop's settings were.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied


@Test Screen Name wrote:

Indeed not. This is why the conversion must be first. Really, really first. No RGB values to convert or inherit, nothing. I observe the original post did not even mention what the working CMYK was, so I am assuming it was just randomly whatever Photoshop's settings were.


 

My conversion was first. My CMYK values are the result. 

Now maybe the OP is making something synthetic directly in a CMYK document first created (no conversions) in FOGRA39, then the OP can produce any mix desired. But if there is an image, it started in RGB and must be converted to CMYK. 

As you state, it is pointless to go CMYK to CMYK.

Again, if the OP can create this all in Photoshop using just say the text tool, then he can 'fill' that with any mix of CMYK he desires including 0/0/0/100. Otherwise, no. 

 

New document; CMYK, in FOGRA39. 

Foreground Color set to 0/0/0/100. Fill. Simple:

simple.jpg

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 28, 2021 Jul 28, 2021

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Correct profiles should be used for the printing area. If possible, the document should be created with the target profile. For the printing industry, Fogra is ideal. Fogra 39 or 51. Synchronize the profile via Adobe Bridge. Then start creating documents. There is no change after rendering black in CMYK mode.

Graphic Designer Educator / PrePress Consultant

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines