Printing too dark in CS4

[_doug_plummer_]

I have CS4 on Tiger 10.4.11 on a completely color managed system, Epson 4800 printer. Printing seems to be broken in the new version. Prints are very dark. I know to select "Photoshop Manages Color" in Color Handling, and "No Color Management" in the printer color management dropdown. The procedure works fine in CS3.

That something is up is suggested by this wrinkle. In this case I am printing using advanced b/w. If under color handling I choose "Printer Manages Color" and go into the b/w advanced setup, it's still too dark. If instead I choose "No color management", then make my choices in advanced b/w, it works fine.

One would first think that it's a double color management problem, but I'm turning it off anywhere I can see it in CS4, and still having problems. Is there a new secret handshake I haven't puzzled out yet?

[Ramón G Castañeda]

Doug,
>"No color management"

Exactly where do you see that exact wording? Can you post a screen shot?

Or do you mean "No Color Adjustment"?

[_doug_plummer_]

Really, "No Color Management", choice #3, after Printer Manages Colors and Photoshop Manages Colors, in the Color Handling dropdown. See here: http://www.dougplummer.com/clients/cm2.jpg

[LarryGRC]

I see the same thing in CS4 print dialogue.

[Was DYP]

Interesting mess this whole Adobe/Apple/Printer drivers thing is.

I believe Epson makes a PS plugin for the 4800. You might want to give that a try and avoid this silliness.

Canon makes a wonderful plugin for the iPF series printer and without it I would really be raising hell about this whole mess.

[_g_ballard_]

doesn't b/w advanced call for Color Handling> "No Color Management" (I recall we are to select "Printer Manages Color" for b/w advanced?)?

also when you get to b/w advanced dialog, isn't there dark, medium and light options

add a Paper Type should set up the workflow, but I had trouble following your post...

[Guest]

Re: #2

Doug:

In the Color Handling box where you selected "No Color Management", you should have chosen "Photoshop Manages Color".

And then in Printer Profile, you need to choose the profile for the paper on which you are printing.

Then you need to click on the "Print" Button

In the dialog which now opens, choose Color Management (from the drop-down menu in the third box) and make sure that "No Color Adjustment" is selected there.

Then Print.

If prints are regularly too dark on certain matte papers, and you are unable to have a Custom profile made, you may find it helpful to add an overall Adjustment Curve to the file before printing.

I use one for a particular matte stock where an Input of 100 provides an Output of 120; and I save this curve as a Preset so that I can load it as needed.

[Was DYP]

Sorry I was wrong the Epson plugin does not support the 4800.

Has Adobe not tested printers?

Do they or anyone else have a list of printers that work correctly with PSCS4 and OS 10.5.5?

[_doug_plummer_]

I see there is some confusion in how I explained my workflows. Here are the Standard Operating Procedures.

For color prints, or for when I want to use a specific output profile I select: Photoshop Manages Colors, and pick the appropriate profile. I use a Perceptual rendering intent with Black Point Compensation checked.

When you press Print you have another series of settings, many of which I have saved as custom presets. The crucial ones are Print Settings, where you choose the proper media type, as Epson adjusts nozzle flow differently under each selection, and Printer Color Management, where Off (No Color Adjustment) is the proper choice.

Using the Advanced Black and White functions requires a different series of choices, which has led to this confusion over why I would ever turn off Color Management. In that workflow I select Printer Manages Colors (in CS3 this works fine) or No Color Management (which appears to be the only way to get Epson b/w to work under CS4). Then under Print Settings you have the option under Color to choose Advanced B&W Photo, whereupon you have those lovely settings under Printer Color Management. Darker is the default setting, for no apparent reason, yet it appears to be the correct choice.

[_g_ballard_]

>> Using the Advanced Black and White functions requires a different series of choices

I think your best information on this workflow will be in your epson manual...if dark prints are the issue, why are you saying Darker is the correct choice?

It appears in your linked photo that a lot of your pixels are in the lower zones (which look dark and problematic to me going to 4800 Epson ink), maybe you need to reevaluate your file in those areas (for the printer/paper/ink)...

[_doug_plummer_]

No, Advanced Black and White is not broken. Everything there works fine. "Darker" gives me the print density I want, and it's the default, and correct, setting. It's when you involve Photoshop in managing colors that things go awry.

[_g_ballard_]

pardon me, doesn't the epson manual specifically tell you not to use Let Photoshop Manage Color when using their Advanced Black and White driver -- what is the problem

[Guest]

>Everything there works fine. "Darker" gives me the print density I want,

then what's the problem? By the tile of the thread You don't want to print darker?

[_doug_plummer_]

There is one issue, illustrated by two workflows. When I let Photoshop manage colors, prints are dark. When I don't, they aren't.

[Ramón G Castañeda]

Doug,

Thank you for clarifying the issue with your screen shot. For some reason, I was under the (mistaken) impression you were referring to a setting in the printer driver, not the Photoshop print dialog box.

The only time I would choose No Color Management in Photoshop's print dialog is when printing a target to create a printer profile.

[Ramón G Castañeda]

Incidentally, you might want to take note of this post in another thread:

Eric Chan, "Printer Dialog Box in CS4 - Printing Grayscale Images" #26, 4 Dec 2008 8:57 pm

Eric Chan - 8:57pm Dec 4, 08 PST (#26 of 26)

Camera Raw Engineer

That's a good idea. Unfortunately, that still doesn't work correctly under Leopard. (i.e., the results from that effort will not match the results from printing under Tiger, or from printing under Windows with CS4, nor match the results from printing under Leopard with CS3).

Which is yet another reason why I'm happy with Tiger.

[MadManChan2000]

To make a very long story short, this is a matter currently being investigated jointly by Adobe and Epson. With CS4 on the Mac, Adobe has switched to using the newer printing interfaces supplied by Apple (ultimately a requirement moving forward), with the side effect of going through different driver paths than CS3 did.

In the meantime, if you are printing from Tiger to the ABW driver, as you are Doug, using No Color Management is probably the easiest option. (However, note that this will not work under Leopard ...)

BTW, what are your RGB and Gray working spaces in CS4's Color Settings?

[_g_ballard_]

>> No Color Management is probably the easiest option

Hmm... I went back and looked at my Epson 7880 manual for the Adv BW instructions (I used this option once before under CS3-Ps-10.4x and got good results).

Outside of Ps, Epson manual recommends:

PRINT SETTINGS
set Media Type
set Adv BW
uncheck High Speed

PRINTER COLOR MANAGEMENT
Color Toning (Neutral/Warm/Cool, ect)
Tone: Darker/Lighter

Inside of Ps, Epson notes:

"If you are printing from Photoshop, make sure you do not use Photoshop's color management settings when using Adv BW Photo mode. There are no profiles associated with this screening and color management technology."

I seemed to recall setting "Printer Manages Color" on my job -- but Eric is recommending selecting "No Color Management" in the Ps dialog we get after hitting Command+P in Photoshop?

++++++++

I am still printing out of CS3/10.4.11, but have to admit I don't understand what's going on...

[Was DYP]

Again I am going to ask.

Does anybody know of any Printer/Driver combinations that actually work correctly with CS4 and Leopard?

[Ramón G Castañeda]

The lack of responses to that question seems to be the answer to it.

[_doug_plummer_]

Eric, glad to have you chime in here. It sounds like my initial impression is correct, that printing in CS4 is broken, and we need to wait for the update. My workflow now is to work on the files in CS4, flatten and save as a duplicate, and print that from CS3.

For files destined for print I use either Adobe RGB or ProPhoto for color spaces, including for b/w.

[Was DYP]

>The lack of responses to that question seems to be the answer to it.

Exactly!

What 10.5.6 will bring is anybodies guess. When will we see is getting to be an even bigger question.

As for those running Epson printers you really should be getting on Epson's case about creating a plugin for PS like Canon does.

This Adobe blaming Apple and the Printer/drivers, Apple blaming Adobe and the Printer/drivers, Printer/drivers blaming Apple and Adobe is getting to be pointless when nothing ever get fixed and every-bodies update breaks something else. And, I can go on and on about what application version, OS version, printer driver version works and does not work or what workarounds to try.

Frankly I am tired of wasting my time on this, and I don't see much of a chance any of this will get fixed anytime soon. It is like nobody tests any of this before they release updates and we (the end user) end up being the beta testers for all of this or getting screwed - however you want to take this.

My response from now on is going to be, get a Canon and use the plugin (or any other printer that uses a plugin) or get a RIP.

[Ramón G Castañeda]

>As for those running Epson printers you really should be getting on Epson's case about creating a plugin for PS like Canon does.

I don't think any printer manufacturer should take Canon as an example. 😕 Or HP, either.

[Was DYP]

>I don't think any printer manufacturer should take Canon as an example. Or HP, either.

As was only talking about the plugin, nothing else. It works perfect for getting around this mess.

[MadManChan2000]

g ballard wrote:

> Hmm... I went back and looked at my Epson 7880 manual for the Adv BW
> instructions

Those instructions don't work all the time because they make assumptions about the document working space (specifically, the gamma encoding used).

This is precisely why I spent a long time in 2007 researching the topic and ended up writing software to build ICC profiles to be used with the ABW driver. That way the guesswork is taken out of the equation.

More background info here:

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/bwcurves.html

DYP writes:

> Again I am going to ask. Does anybody know of any Printer/Driver
> combinations that actually work correctly with CS4 and Leopard?

Sure. Here are a few Epson models that I know of: R1900, R2400, R2880, 3800, 4800, 4880, 7800, 7880, 7900, 9800, 9880, 9900, 11880. Just as long as you're printing via the RGB color driver. (I believe the HP Z-series printers work as well but have not personally verified this.)

Doug writes:

> It sounds like my initial impression is correct, that printing in
> CS4 is broken ...

To the ABW driver under Leopard? Yes.

In general? No.

> ... and we need to wait for the update.

Yes, but not necessarily from Adobe.

It remains to be seen exactly where the problem is and who will provide the fix or workaround. The update will come from some subset of Adobe, Apple, and/or Epson.

Eric