Strange color when opening Camera Raw files only in Photoshop or Lightroom

[danielg5981]

I have a strange thing happening that maybe someone can shed some thoughts on. I use my Nikon D7000 to  photograph my artwork (paintings)..  Recenly after shooting photos of two large commissoned paintings (one of the paintings has figures in the upper left corner that are presented in saturated red/orange, yellow, with saturated blue shadows) using an 18% gray card to set white balance and exposture (I bracket the shots as well) as is standard procedure (and I have done for decades), I imported the photos into my Mac.  The photos import into Apple Photos, and I can then export them (both as nef and jpg files). I then open the nef files in Camera Raw, and usually do any necessary adjustmens (cropping, sometimes curves adjustments a bit) in Photoshop. However, the area of the painnting with the saturated red/orange, yellow, and blue figures is appearing strange in Camera Raw, Photoshop, and even Lightroom. The nef files look fine in Apple Photos, or even if I open them in Preview, but in the Adobe apps the red/orange appears to be a brillant scarlet, over saturated and too cool. The jpg file, looks fine if I open it in any apps, including the Adobe ones. It is an odd occurence I've never encountered before. Any thoughts?  Thank you in advance. 

[D Fosse]

First of all, I'd keep Apple Photos out of the equation. Copy the raw files directly to disk, and open in ACR from there.

Other than that, you need to show screenshots. Include the full ACR interface. It sounds like maybe ACR isn't using the correct monitor profile, but that is guesswork without more information.

[danielg5981]

Yes, thank you. I wil try directly uploading from the memory card to my computer. but your thought about the profile seems spot on. ACR was using the Adobe Color profile (don't remember ever changing this, and I've used it for years). I tried Adobe Neutral instead, and it is much more accurate. Then tried switching the Camera Matching to Camera Neutral, which is better, and then Camera Standard, which is a bit better, more accurate still, bit more depth. It does seem to have resolved the issue. I am attaching three screenshots (this is a detail of one of two large paintings commissioned by our state Department of Health). The first is a screenshot of the image as it appears in Apple Photos with no correction. The second is as it appears in ACR with the Adobe Color profile. You can see how the red/oranges become over saturated scarlet. The third is in ACR with the Camera Standard profile. The color is true to the actual painting.  So thank you!   I was worried that maybe there was a problem with the camera. I am going to also try directly uploading from the memory card (bypassing Apple Photos) to see if that makes a difference., though I've done it this way for years.    Thanks again!!!

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

Actually I was talking about the monitor profile, which has nothing to do with camera profiles.

However:

I had assumed that you had been doing all the necessary adjustments in ACR, and that the oversaturation happened in Photoshop when the file opened there. But rereading your first post, it seems you think it's oversaturated throughout, and that all these apps actually agree.

What you see in Apple Photos is not the raw data. It's the jpeg embedded in the file by the camera.

So this is basically down to using the controls in ACR and making the appropriate adjustments to get the desired result. The camera profiles are included in that.

[danielg5981]

Thank you again. So yes, makes sense that the jpeg embedded file would look "better", if not the raw data. And indeed the problem was in ACR and Lightroom (which I don't really use).   I found doing corrections in Photoshop (which I often do) somehow accurate if I opened the file without any correction in ACR,  more guesswork somehow, since I am not looking at the actual artwork when I am doing it. However, as per your clarification,I did now also  try changing the monitor profile in Photoshop, after opening the raw nef file w/o any adjusment or profile change in ACR. I can then change the profile in Photoshop to more closely match the artwork. It seemed to be assigned Display (or Display P3) by default. sRGB which is I guess often s.o.p. is indeed better (after trying various Profiles including Adobe RGB). Just changing that means I had to do little else. Changing the profile in ACR, as I noted before, also worked well.   Again, I think you. You solved my issue.

[danielg5981]

That should have been "I found doing corrections in Photoshop (which I often do) somehow less accurate if I opened the file without any correction in ACR,  more guesswork somehow, since I am not looking at the actual artwork when I am doing it."  Again, thank you. 

[D Fosse · Accepted solution]

No, slow down! Go back to start. Sit tight and don't do anything until we've cleared up a few things.

A document profile is a map, describing a color space. There is only one correct profile to use, and it's the one the file was actually created in. That defines the RGB numbers correctly as actual colors.. You cannot experiment with profiles! You just need to keep track of what they are, so that you can be sure it's the right one and it's correctly converted when necessary, throughout the process.

If a file is created in, say, Adobe RGB, then that is the profile it needs to have. You can convert into a different color space, if for some reason that's needed, but you cannot just replace that profile with another. You cannot assign a different profile.

What these profiles do, along with the monitor profile (also a standard icc profile), is to keep colors consistent throughout a processing workflow.

Leave document profiles alone. Just make sure there is one.

So far so good. Now we're getting to your case.

You need to use the controls in Camera Raw to get the result you want. This is the whole point. This includes both the sliders and the various camera profiles. Here you can, and should, experiment. This is where you shape the image to be what you want. Then you open the image into Photoshop for final adjustments that aren't available in Camera Raw.

There are very good technical reasons for this order. A raw file contains a lot more information than will be used in the final image. The processing in Camera Raw decides what data to keep and what to throw away. That information is not available in the RGB file you have open in Photoshop. That's why you should not open directly from Camera Raw and then do all adjustments in Photoshop.

We're getting into pretty fundamental things here, and there's a whole lot more to this, that I don't have time to get into right now.

[danielg5981]

Thank you again. I have been reading up a bit, and also read some of your answers on other threads, which is  very helpful. So I can do my adjustment to the proper profile in ACR, I SHOULD do my adjusment to the proper profile in ACR. In my case Adobe Color is the default, but switching to Adobe Standard (or even Camera Neutral or Standard) looks better. Then I can do the slight curve adjustment (just sliding the point adjustment over very slightly to get true white), and then open from there. That is the best workflow? Doing so is producing good and accurate images, and I understand why it is better than doing so in Photoshop.

Now I know you answered this in another thread, as someone else had this same question: the workflow Color Space in ACR for me seems to be set by default to "Display P3" (as set in both the Photoshop and ACR settings, which seem to be the same), and so when I open the files in Photoshop and look at the assigned Profile (Edit > Assign or Convert Profile) I can see it is "Display P3".   My working space seems to be SRGB, and Adobe RGB comes up it seems as default in the Convert to Profile drop down menu (this may be because of prior work I did).  I understand I should not convert or assign a Profile in Photoshop (except in certain circumstances (as when I have submitted files for special kinds of printing and they asked the file to be converted to a specific profile).

So I guess my simple question is whether Display P3 is fine as the ACR Workflow, or does it even matter?  You can ignore this question entirely, because it may be so fundamental. I will dive in and read all I can on Color Profiles now. 

I may find my answer in my additional reading.  Again thanks so much. You have really helped me.

[danielg5981]

I tried to edit my reply above, but couldn't. Just wanted to say that I looked at the Display Settings on my Mac and the preset is Apple Display P3. so I guess that all makes sense. I can't calibrate it because I don't have calibration hardware. Anyway I am reading through the Work with color profiles on the Adobe help site, and that may answer all my questions. And the workflow now is producing excellent results, so again thank you.

[danielg5981]

Okay, I read the "Work with color profiles", and I think I get it. Disply P3 is the correct profile for my monitor, that is why it is the default in the ACR workflow. I do my adjustments in ACR, then open in Photoshop. I should not convert or re-assign a new profile (to either SRGB or Adobe RGB) unliess requested to for a specific job (as has happened for some work I have done in the past).   So got it. Thank you. And results are great.

[NB, colourmanagement]

@danielg5981 "Okay, I read the "Work with color profiles", and I think I get it. Disply P3 is the correct profile for my monitor, that is why it is the default in the ACR workflow." 

Display P3 MAY be the correct Display profile IF it’s a certain display type (Apple XDR).

Ideally you would be calibrating the screen, but if it is an XDR type, then Apple have done a pretty good job already. 

MAYBE Display P3 is right for the XDR display, I think it is, but I don't have one to test.

FYI, for, say a standard Macbook, Apple System Settings / Displays under Color Profile Apple generally place a profile called Apple LCD, THAT would generally be the default name.

An XDR screen changes the Apple System Settings / Displays option to "current profile". Do you see Display P3 there? 

I'm pleased that your work is looking OK on your screen now, but its vital to be sure that its appearance is transportable to other screens . 

There is no need to use Display P3 as your file colourspace, depending on destination, converting to (or setting Camara raw to) Adobe RGB would likely be more transportable.

For Internet use you could then convert a copy to sRGB 

I hope this helps

neil barstow - adobe forum volunteer,

colourmanagement consultant & co-author of 'getting colour right'

See my free articles on colour management online

Help others by clicking "Correct Answer" if the question is answered.

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[NB, colourmanagement]

@danielg5981 "I did now also  try changing the monitor profile in Photoshop"

never do that, Photoshop picks up the Monitor profile from the system. The Monitor Profile indication in Photoshop is largely meant to be purely informative only. 

I hope this helps

neil barstow - adobe forum volunteer,

colourmanagement consultant & co-author of 'getting colour right'

See my free articles on colour management online

Help others by clicking "Correct Answer" if the question is answered.

Found the answer elsewhere? Share it here. "Upvote" is for useful posts

[NB, colourmanagement]

@danielg5981 as @D Fosse writes: "What you see in Apple Photos is not the raw data. It's the jpeg embedded in the file by the camera."

that is a vital thing to be aware of.

neilB

[NB, colourmanagement · Accepted solution]

@D Fosse @danielg5981 "First of all, I'd keep Apple Photos out of the equation. Copy the raw files directly to disk, and open in ACR from there."

I totally agree, why bring another application into the process. 

I hope this helps

neil barstow - adobe forum volunteer,

colourmanagement consultant & co-author of 'getting colour right'

See my free articles on colour management online

Help others by clicking "Correct Answer" if the question is answered.

Found the answer elsewhere? Share it here. "Upvote" is for useful posts

[danielg5981]

Yes, thank you both.  I have been using the wrong workflow for years.... kinda bypassing the corrections in ACR and making corrections in Photoshop. I understand after reading up more why this is a mistake in terms of raw data.   So doing very minor, simple corrections in ACR (profile change, generally from Adobe Color which is default and too saturated to Adobe Standard, etc.) is all I have to do. Then opening the image in Photoshop, it is perfect. No need to do more than crop. I am not going to go back and correct decades of photos of my work, ha ha. But I have done some of the recent work. This is such a more efficient workflow. So appreciative to you folks!!! 

[NB, colourmanagement]

@danielg5981 Thanks for the feedback - great that you now have grasped the situation and know how to go forward.  Some very informative help there from @D Fosse .

Apologies for my multiple replies but I wanted it to be clear which point I was answering each time. 

neil barstow - adobe forum volunteer,

colourmanagement consultant & co-author of 'getting colour right'

See my free articles on colour management online

Help others by clicking "Correct Answer" if the question is answered.

Found the answer elsewhere? Share it here. "Upvote" is for useful posts