P: Smart Objects: Auto-convert JPGs to PSD

Report · Apr 05, 2011

If you drag an image into the canvas and have the option enabled to convert it to a smart object automatically, when you try to edit that smart object you are unable to save it to update it. Instead you get the usual save dialog and if you save in the default folder (temporary items) it doesn't actually update the smart object.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

I read it, and just understand more about Photoshop.
And reading your description makes it quite clear that you made a mistake and ignored the warning to save to the same filename and format.

The Save As dialog appeared because you added something to the document that could not be saved in the current file format (like adding a layer to a JPEG file). And then you saved to a different filename or format - which broke the connection with the smart object file being tracked. If you had not added anything to the document that could not be saved in the current format, then you would not have gotten the Save As dialog, and would have saved back to the same filename and format - then the Smart Object would update just fine.

Again, this is not a bug, just simple user error.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Yes, that is a common user error - which is why Smart Objects warn you to save the file back to the same filename and file format. Ignoring that warning will lead to the link between your edits and the Smart Object being broken -- because the Smart Object is looking for changes to your original file, not the new file that you saved in a different place or format.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Since the behavior of the same function is different in case A and B and case B is against the specification of the manual it is a bug.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Chris, I have to disagree with you again. What you are describing has nothing to do with the case scenarios I posted. I did nothing of the steps that you were describing. Why do you so fiercely insist that it is a user error when you don't follow the simple steps I lined out to reproduce the bug?

You wrote:
"The Save As dialog appeared because you added something to the document that could not be saved in the current file format (like adding a layer to a JPEG file). "

I did not do that. I created a new Photoshop document, which has been saved in PSD format. I than just place a jpeg file INTO that Photoshop file and have the PSD file saved. If I turn the new LAYER that was created by the place command into a smart object I can double click, edit, and save that layer/smart object.

Instead, if Photoshop saves me the step of creating the smart object manually, but does it for me, having the setting turned on, then double click, edit, safe does not work. The save after an edit should work the same way.

This is a bug, q.e.d.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

No, it is working exactly as it should, exactly how the help files say it should, and exactly the way the warning dialog tells you.

The mistake is saving to a different filename or format -- which you have already been told will break the connection to the Smart Object.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

@pgurney: It is sad, but you are right. When the CC versions had to be pushed a lot of thoughts went into the UI and things that were asked for for many years finally appeared in the products. Now it seems user experience and ease of use are not given the same value anymore. But those are the things that decide if you have a life after work or waste the night and the weekend dealing with those idiocies. Instead of quickly swapping images with a higher resolution version inside a smart object, I took me four times as long spending the whole Sunday at work. :-((

Report · Mar 30, 2015

It has everything to do with what you posted. If you saved back to the same filename and format, then the smart object would update. But you added something to the document that could not be saved in the current format (like a layer in a JPEG file), got the SaveAs dialog because of that, then saved to a different filename or format and broke the connection to the Smart Object -- just like you were warning NOT to do in the warning that comes up when you edit a smart object.

If you had not added something that the file format could not support, then the Save As dialog would not have appeared. Ergo, you did add something that the file format did not support. If you had saved to the same filename and format even from the Save As dialog, the Smart Object still would have updated. Ergo you did not save to the same filename and format like you were instructed.

So far you have described your series of mistakes, but not described any bug in Photoshop. Please read what I have already written (and the warning when you edit) more carefully so you can avoid making those mistakes in the future.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

I'm sorry, Chris, but I give up trying to explain you. This is my last attempt. I did NOT add a layer to a jpeg file. I'm working with a PSD file. It makes no sense to keep the argument going when you don't read or understand what I was writing. You are making conclusions about things that I did not do. When editing a smart object the save as dialog should NEVER come up when saving the file.

The bug is that Photoshop creates or opens the smart object wrongly when the setting "automatically create smart object when placing" is turned on.

Follow my two examples A and B. If you double click the smart object you will see that the opened file has a .psb ending, which is the Photoshop blob format that doesn't has the file size limitation of .psd files. Therefore you can edit the opened smart object in any way you want, close and save it, and the changes are updated in the PSD file.

Now take example B. If you double click the smart object it does not open in .psb format. It opens in he original placed file format, in may case jpeg. This is why I can't make any changes without using the save as dialog. Here you are correct. Remember embedded placed files and also smart object are saved *inside* the psd file. So either Photoshop saves the placed (embedded) file wrongly in the original file format instead of using psb or Photoshop wrongly opens the the original format instead of psb. Either one is wrong.

Since the only difference is the setting "automatically create smart object when placing" which should just save you from turning the placed file into a smart object manually. So the problem is not what edits you do in a smart object. The difference is just this setting. The difference is just if I turn a layer into a smart object or Photoshop does this. This different behavior caused by a setting that should not have any side effect is therefore called by definition a bug.

It's a bug not a feature!

Report · Mar 30, 2015

There is no bug here. Repeating the facts of your mistake while trying to claim that it is not a mistake really doesn't work. And trying to attribute the problem to a completely unrelated preference isn't helping, either.

Please, please read what I've already written. I've explained this over and over - it is just a simple user mistake because you saved your file to a different filename or format.

Yes, you can make changes to a JPEG and save it as JPEG - as long as those changes can work with the JPEG format (no layers, no change of color mode, etc.). Lots of people do this in Smart Object workflow all the time.

The Save As dialog must come up if you have something in your document that cannot be saved in the original file format. Even then you can choose to save as a copy back to the original file format and filename (as instructed by the warning when you start editing a smart object).

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Chris, I double checked the help file. You are correct that the stated behavior is that Photoshop will save embedded files with the original format:

"Although you can place JPEG files, it's better to place PSD, TIFF, or PSB files because you can add layers, modify pixels, and resave the file without loss. (Saving a modified JPEG file requires you to flatten new layers and recompress the image, causing image quality degradation)."

This was not the way it worked in earlier versions. I might have access to a 5.5 version end of the week. I will double check it. Therefore you can argue if it is a bug due to the changed behavior and the dependency on just a setting or if it is just a very bad design decision. For me a bug is a behavior that doesn't follow the manual. So in that case I have to admit that you would be right and it would not be a bug. It might be questioned if a bug is still a bug if the manual has been changed to reflect the buggy behavior 😉

In any case the main topic remains: Is that behavior a desired behavior or should it be changed?

Report · Mar 30, 2015

I don't disagree with you about changes in a JPEG file at all. The problem is not the jpeg file. The problem is that Photoshop saves a placed file in the original file format when that setting is turned on instead of using a psb/psd format. That is the whole problem.
The preference is not unrelated. It makes the difference in the workflow. So the better workaround is to turn the setting off and manually turn the layer of the placed file into a smart object. This saves me hours of work when I need to replace with higher resolutions.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Yes, that is the way it worked in earlier versions. That behavior has not changed a bit since I first wrote the code for Smart Objects. Again, there are reasons behind that behavior, partly to allow flexibility in editing, partly to allow for linked Smart Objects. Yes, the documentation and that warning dialog all say that it should work the way it does work. No, working the way it should is not a bug.

No, you can't really argue that it is a bug in the design, partly because you don't seem to understand even a fraction of the design.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

That is not a bug, it should use the original file when placing. Photoshop only has to resort to using PSB when you create a new Smart Object from layers, because the file has to hold every possible thing that can exist in a Photoshop document.

The preference is unrelated to your mistakes and does not need any changes.

The mistake is still when you saved your edited file to a different filename or format.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Report · Mar 30, 2015

Chris, there might be reasons for the internal design that I can't see, but
from a users standpoint I can't see any benefit in that design. I just cost me hours of extra work, so it annoys me tremendously. It makes my work harder and kills valuable life time. I have not seen any advantage that this behavior would give me. If all placed embedded pixel objects would be internally saved in psb format all the problems and inconsistent behaviors would be gone. I need to go to bed now, but I will try to explain you in more detail why this behavior causes pain in various situations. If you have time I would be glad if you can give me examples where this behavior is of benefit to the user experience.

Report · Mar 30, 2015

There are several benefits that you should see (linking files, editing in other apps, etc.), plus more that would take a bit of thought to understand. And much of it is just required by the nature of linked files (you must track the file that was linked, not copies of it that were saved somewhere else).

And yes, ignoring warnings and the details in the manual usually does lead to problems.

No, the placed files need to be saved in their own format as much as possible, not converted to PSB. Converting everything to PSB would destroy much of the functionality and power of Smart Objects, and is not even possible when linking files. And, of course, we can't convert vector files (PDF, AI, EPS) into PSB without losing the vector nature of the files.

Please, stop trying to explain your mistake. We already understand that you made a mistake, and the nature of that mistake. Instead, take some time to read the warnings, read the help files, and try not to repeat your mistake in the future.

Report · Mar 31, 2015

It doesn't look like Chris will ever be convinced the users of Photoshop actually know what they need - heck, who are we to know - we're just designers who use the product all day long! Surely the engineer knows best!

But here's a solution that doesn't conflict with any of the counter arguments (however weak and illogical they are) -> add a new freaking option!

As a subset of "Always Create Smart Object when Placing", add "Convert placed image files to PSD Smart Objects".

Report · Apr 01, 2015

Marcus and pgurney, I'm a researcher with the Photoshop team. If you're game it'd great to connect. Sometimes there's slippage between our intentions and user expectations, and its obviously of benefit to understand that and potentially address it. I'm at cpearson@adobe.com, be in touch!

Report · Apr 01, 2015

Hello Charles, thank you for the kind invite to a discussion. Edward Sanchez also had a good suggestion to allow Photoshop to serve both creator intentions and customer expectations...

May I quote the now-removed-but-disputed post:

**
But here's a solution that doesn't conflict with any of the counter arguments (however weak and illogical they are) -> add a new -snip- option!

As a subset of "Always Create Smart Object when Placing", add "Convert placed image files to PSD Smart Objects".
**

I'd be happy to chat about this. It would make SmartObjects even smarter!

Thank you,
Paul

Report · Apr 01, 2015

I should have noted I've already talked to Edward. Please be in touch!

Report · Apr 01, 2015

Unfortunately that is not at the heart of the problems covered in this topic, all which boil down to: an edited child file was saved to a different filename or file format than what the Smart Object is tracking.

The suggested change would not alter the mistake of saving to a different file.

Report · Apr 01, 2015

Hi Charles, thank for the offer. I really appreciate it. I will try to get in touch with you tomorrow. I wanted to respond yesterday, but we had a major storm. The trains didn't go anymore and I had to drive for two days having no time to work on the computer.

Thanks
Marcus

Report · Apr 01, 2015

There is no mistake by the user, there simply is an intention/expectation. Current Photoshop behavior does not meet our intentions/expectations, which is to be able to edit the Smart Object like any other Smart Object.

Saying this is user mistake is not only extremely insulting to us, it's also not the way product design works. If several of your most expert users report an issue, it should be looked into and considered by several members team, not shot down point blank as user mistake by a single individual contributor.

If research shows that not every user's intentions match the one by the commenters on this feedback (images should be re-saved as PSDs), then the solution is to add a new option to Preferences so both types of users are catered for.

However, I cannot imagine any user NOT wanting a JPG/PNG to be converted to a PSD in order to have it be editable, I can't think of any use case where a user would prefer a flat file over a PSD. What are the down-sides to it? File size? Anything else?

Thankfully Chris is not the sole decision maker at Photoshop, he's an engineer - his opinions are heard but not final. So now that PM, UX and Research are involved, they can look into the issue and, if they deem it appropriate, add it to their backlog for the next release.

Report · Apr 01, 2015

Would it be possible to unmark this issue as Solved, and perhaps mark it as "in consideration"?

Report · Apr 01, 2015

No, because it is solved and not under consideration.

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P: Smart Objects: Auto-convert JPGs to PSD

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