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Annoying Undo behavior. Fixable?

Enthusiast ,
Jan 18, 2010

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Here's my biggest pet peeve about Photoshop:

I'm currently working on Layer A. I select Layer B in the layer palette, then select the move tool (v). I move the layer in XY (not layer order). I release the mouse.  I don't like where I put it, so I hit Undo. (Or step backward in the history)

Photoshop resets Layer B's position, but then it also reselects Layer A! No, stay with Layer B! I just want to move it again! This is especially annoying when I have 100+ layers and Layer A is at the top and Layer B is down at the bottom of the stack.  I have to scrollscrollscroll to get back down to Layer B.

Is there any way to "fix" this? Shouldn't the History Palette record what a layer selection as an step? To me, it seems Undo is really taking TWO steps back (reset layer XY position and reselect previously selected layer).

Actually, we do that all the time (sitting for a while with professionals and watching them work).

Also, most of our developers are serious Photoshop users (photographers, painters, illustrators, etc.).

Photoshop isn't developed in a vacuum.

And what you are describing is not a bug -- just something that some people understand and some people don't about how history and undos work.

As far as I know, it has been there for as long as history and undo have existed in Photoshop.

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Annoying Undo behavior. Fixable?

Enthusiast ,
Jan 18, 2010

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Here's my biggest pet peeve about Photoshop:

I'm currently working on Layer A. I select Layer B in the layer palette, then select the move tool (v). I move the layer in XY (not layer order). I release the mouse.  I don't like where I put it, so I hit Undo. (Or step backward in the history)

Photoshop resets Layer B's position, but then it also reselects Layer A! No, stay with Layer B! I just want to move it again! This is especially annoying when I have 100+ layers and Layer A is at the top and Layer B is down at the bottom of the stack.  I have to scrollscrollscroll to get back down to Layer B.

Is there any way to "fix" this? Shouldn't the History Palette record what a layer selection as an step? To me, it seems Undo is really taking TWO steps back (reset layer XY position and reselect previously selected layer).

Actually, we do that all the time (sitting for a while with professionals and watching them work).

Also, most of our developers are serious Photoshop users (photographers, painters, illustrators, etc.).

Photoshop isn't developed in a vacuum.

And what you are describing is not a bug -- just something that some people understand and some people don't about how history and undos work.

As far as I know, it has been there for as long as history and undo have existed in Photoshop.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 18, 2010

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There has quite recently been a (or maybe »another«) Feature Request regarding this, so You could post there to increase the request’s »importance«.

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Guru ,
Jan 18, 2010

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There has been a lot to debate about this. 'Undo' and 'Step Back' are not the same thing. Undo will undo the move without changing the layer selection. Step Back may change the layer selection if the active layer is changed after the history state was created.

Selecting a layer does not create a history state. You could change layers a dozen times and as long as you don't do anything other that select layers no additional history states will be created.

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Engaged ,
Jan 11, 2011

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Yes, that Feature Request is here:

http://forums.adobe.com/message/2526143#2526143

Apparently, there is a difference of opinion on the subject. Some view it as perfectly logical, while others, myself included, find it endlessly annoying.

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Community Beginner ,
Jan 12, 2011

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thanks for the update!

I am the side of finding it endlessly annoying.

Dermot Power

www.dermotpower.com

http://dmoxia.blogspot.com (blog comic)

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 04, 2010

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I have the same problem with photoshop undoing a layer selection and it is incredibly irritating. I use undo not just to correct a mistake but as a way of drawing e.g I put down a stroke to see what it looks like then undo it and stroke again ...bit like a practice golf swing. Very often I will hit a layer, stroke, undo, stroke again and keep drawing only to discover that I have been drawing on the wrong layer because photoshop undo brought me back two steps.

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Participant ,
Feb 05, 2010

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Absolutely agree.

This is a super pain in the butt that has cost me all kinds of errors.

Photoshop didn’t used to do that, but it was a “feature” on one of the upgrades (no idea when cs maybe?).

You choose a layer (or layer mask), choose a brush, and choose a colour, realize you’ve got one of the three wrong, hit undo — bang you are back to where you started. It’s just too easy to not realize it’s gone back to the previous layer. Then you end up damaging that layer when you thought you were safely somewhere else.

Drives me crazy!!!

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 08, 2010

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as they say 'don't get me started'. Did you ever wish that the tech-nerds who design the apps sat in a room with you for a few days and watched a professional work and complain?

Dermot Power

www.dermotpower.com

http://dmoxia.blogspot.com/

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Feb 08, 2010

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Actually, we do that all the time (sitting for a while with professionals and watching them work).

Also, most of our developers are serious Photoshop users (photographers, painters, illustrators, etc.).

Photoshop isn't developed in a vacuum.

And what you are describing is not a bug -- just something that some people understand and some people don't about how history and undos work.

As far as I know, it has been there for as long as history and undo have existed in Photoshop.

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Community Beginner ,
Feb 08, 2010

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really? 'serious photoshop users' ? as opposed to...what, jokey ones?

And you tell me photoshop is not developed in a vacuum? I can't believe it!

I understand how your undo and history states work but that doesn't make the feature any less annoying.

I've been using photoshop for 13 years as a professional 'serious' illustrator. I jump over and back between

Corel Painter and photoshop taking advantage of the best bits of each and trying to avoid the worst bits.

As far as I know I have not always had that problem until I bought CS4 last year.

It might be something wrong with how I've set up my keyboard shortcuts for example but a suggestion on how

to deal with the problem would be much more helpful than your history lesson.

Dermot Power

www.dermotpower.com

http://dmoxia.blogspot.com/

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Participant ,
Feb 08, 2010

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It was a change at some point, I remember it distinctly. Couldn't tell you when, mind you.

And I do understand how history works, but it still causes me problems, and would love be able to turn it off.

It's hard to remember when you make a simple mistake (as I say, usually a wrong brush, or colour — particularly using black when you mean white or visa versa in a mask) and thinking back to weather you changed layers in the pervious step.

It's particularly awkward in large documents with many layers and it's taken a bit of effort to choose the right layer in the first place.

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Explorer ,
Mar 04, 2010

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And what you are describing is not a bug -- just something that some people understand and some people don't about how history and undos work.

This is such a disappointing answer.

Your loyal long-time users on this thread disagree with you. The fact you assume they are ignorant makes me doubt that Photoshop will ever again be the great product it once was.

I know how it works and I hate it.

I know there are two slightly different ways to get back to a time before my last action, with slightly different results, and I think it's user-hostile.

I assume there is some internally-consistent justification for the decision behind this UX, but I don't care. I can't use a justification.

The user experience is bad.

All too often I see user conversations with Adobe which follow this form:

User: The user experience is bad.

Adobe: You're wrong, we did that on purpose, here's a complicated workaround.

User: Make it easy, please.

Adobe: Get used to it.

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Participant ,
Mar 05, 2010

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lol.

Agreed.

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LEGEND ,
Mar 06, 2010

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So in this thread four users have expressed dissatisfaction with the current behaviour – do You really think that justifies the programming effort to change it? (And I certainly don’t know what kind of effort that would have to be.)

Have any of You bothered to post in the Feature Request Forum about it?

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Enthusiast ,
Apr 26, 2010

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Anyone know if CS5 "fixes" this behavior?

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Community Beginner ,
May 12, 2010

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No! it did not!!!  ...im so tired.

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New Here ,
Aug 20, 2010

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This behaviour changed in Photoshop 7, and it was incredibly irritating. Every time a new version comes out, I hope to God there's a new preference to set to remedy this.

This seems like a pretty common workflow:

1. Select a layer.

2. Move it (for instance)

3. Don't like the change, so you want it back exactly where it was, at which point the only thing to do is undo.

4. Then go in to move it again, but now you're moving the wrong layer.

at which point you have to

6. undo that.

7. find the layer you want again

8. start over

I have a hard time believing this doesn't happen to every photoshop user, but who knows, maybe it doesn't.

Please at least consider making this a preference.

As a back of the box feature for CS6, this would do more to make me consider upgrading than any amount of goofy 3D features or other nonsense.

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Mentor ,
Aug 20, 2010

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Undo doesn't do what you're describing. Step backwards does. Switch the key commands for undo and step backwards. Problem solved.

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New Here ,
Aug 20, 2010

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Excellent. Years of frustration put behind me.

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2011

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problem not solved. Undo only allows you to go back one step. Undo is now worthless. I don't even use the undo keys any more because I've never made a single mistake worth undoing, it's always at least two or three strokes I'd like to fix.

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Enthusiast ,
May 01, 2011

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> Undo only allows you to go back one step. Undo is now worthless.

The default behaviour of Undo has always been to toggle off and on the last thing done. The only difference I see now is that CS5 doesn't have it in the Preferences to change that behaviour to multiple undos. But that's what Cmd-Option-Z is for. (And while I'm here, need I mention that Cmd-Shift-Z will back up any number of undos.)

And as far as the OP's criticism, I don't get it. If I use the history panel to go to a previous history state, I expect to be in a previous history state: and that includes whether or not I had layer A or B selected at the time. If one just wants to undo the last thing you did: use Undo. The idea that History States and Undo should work the same is counter productive.

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2011

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We're all really happy for you that you like the way it currently works

I think the point of the people that have issues with the current implementation is mostly that they'd like Undo and Step back to behave more alike. (Alike being for instance: without layer changes that happened before a first brush stroke on a new layer) - The sorry thing is: they got it right in the regular undo, and painful in the history states.

Personally, I think it's counter intuitive to use two types of undo. Because "step back in history" to me, is just another undo. I'd like to not have to think about if my next undo will be an undo for a single-, or multiple steps, which is what this current implementation forces me to remember. Whereas if this issue were fixed, I could just press undo, and press it a couple O' times more if needed.

I think it's worth investigating, seeing as some people mention using panels, how many people altered the undo & history shortcuts, and how many use something like the history panel.

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Enthusiast ,
May 01, 2011

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It seems to me if you had read the last line of my comment you would have been aware that I didn't need the explanation given by your first paragraph. And glad to see that you talk for all Photoshop users.

You say Step Back is just another Undo. Perhaps you could explain the logic behind requiring two undos? The reality is that the two things are different and I think the nuance of control given by that difference only makes sense.

> which is what this current implementation forces me to remember

But you are not forced to remember any such thing. If you want to go back to a previous history state, click the history state. If you want to undo a specific action, or series of actions, hit Undo, or Cmd-Option-Z as many times as you need.

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Explorer ,
May 01, 2011

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And I think the nuance of control given by that difference only makes for confusion.

As fruityth1ng said, it's swell that it works for you, but I for one cannot see any benefit in having two slightly different ways to step back in time.

I don't see any logic behind Undo ≠ 1 x Step Back.

On my reading, no-one in this thread claims to speak for all Photoshop users.

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2011

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You're right, I only speak for me

The thing is: there's a bunch of people that hate the current behavior - and I will state so to strengthen my point.

I think it's a perfectly logical thing to assign the step back command to the undo shortcut.

And forced, yes, I'm asked to remember two different shortcuts for what easily can be crammed into a single one.

I often require multiple steps of undo, When I'm brushing, painting, I can end up a couple of strokes into something that need a few undos, but as I undo each step, I *do not* know how many I still have to go. That's the beauty of the step back command, as opposed to clicking the history state directly.

I would just like to be able to undo a few brush strokes, painted first on a fresh layer. And then start brushing again, without having to worry about on what layer I'm working.

This can all be solved by adding the layer change to the history stack, and if they make it an option, the people in this thread will be happy campers

The beauty is, reading the comments of the people who want this changed, is that they'd prefer it to be optional.

So you can keep working blissfully the same.

Who knows, I actually think I could use both behaviors and would switch between them when needed, just like what kind of image interpolation I need (And yes... I wish there was a toggle for that, too )

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Community Beginner ,
May 01, 2011

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Reading M Blackburns last paragraph, as directed, I now realize he states it himself:

"And as far as the OP's criticism, I don't get it."

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Explorer ,
May 01, 2011

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This can all be solved by adding the layer change to the history stack, and if they make it an option, the people in this thread will be happy campers

That's it, that's all it would take.

That option, with the existing ability to assign CMD-Z to Step Back, would make me happy. As far as I can see it wouldn't break anything for M Blackburn or anyone else.

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Enthusiast ,
May 01, 2011

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As for your speaking for all Photoshop users I simply responded to the somewhat snotty implied suggestion that opposing opinions aren't welcome.

And your last post really wasn't necessary either. It's nothing but quote mining: i.e.- taking what was said out of context. For the record, what I didn't get is why two different things need to behave as if they were the same thing. The rest of the paragraph went on to show that I understood very well the OP's complaint.

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Community Beginner ,
May 03, 2011

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But enough about our personal interactions, fun as they are

Do we all agree on this being a killer feature / glaring oversight that we absolutely need and want fixed?

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Mentor ,
May 03, 2011

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Personally, I don't.  Undo and Step Back should remain two distinct features.

It would be nice if the change of targeted layer could optionally be recorded as a History Panel step, but the way it is now is a very minor annoyance in my view.

¢2

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Enthusiast ,
May 03, 2011

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Let's be clear here: what you and the OP are endorsing is a change in the historical behaviour of Photoshop, it is not a fix. The behaviour of Undo and stepping back in the HIstory Panel is how Photoshop has always worked. It is not an oversight. It is not a bug or something that is broken. It works as expected.

Undo and going back to a previous History State are two separate features, I see no advantage in having them combined. I have no objection to having some sort of option that would reduce the History Panel to nothing but a series of undos other than burdening the preferences unnecessarily. But to change how Photoshop works in this regard? No. I do not agree.

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Community Beginner ,
May 03, 2011

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"The way it has always worked" - to me, is not an endorsement - hell, you'd still be stuck at version one following that reasoning.

As someone schooled in interaction design, I was taught the user is never wrong. It's always the interface misinterpreting whatever zany idea a user comes up with. Sensible user? Rarely. Does software need to adapt to that? Hell yes.

And yes, it's broken, undo-ing multiple states worked just fine a couple of versions back, and now there's this thread, with concerned users pleading for a fix.

"Works as expected", I'm happy it does, for you.

Me and a few other people, we end up on a wrong layer in our creative process.

I'd greatly appreciate an extra option, option-fearing-forum trolls or not

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Community Beginner ,
May 03, 2011

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im with you. many times i end up in wrong layer. and as im working fast...the damage is HUGE. so yes, fix this thing ASAP.

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Enthusiast ,
May 03, 2011

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Excuse me, but the argument was not "that's the way it always worked." I was

pointing out that at least one person didn't even know that is how it has

always worked and claims he didn't have this problem in CS4.

I am also pointing out that saying this is something that needs to be

"fixed" is presumptive and disingenuous. Your opinion of what constitutes an

advancement has yet to be established.

I was taught the user is never wrong.

And here you go again speaking as if you are representative of Photoshop

users. You may be vocal and condescending in your attitude, but that doesn't

make you either the majority or right. Calling me an option fearing troll is

just being childish. From my perspective, if in this particular case, you

are ending up on the wrong layer, it's because you're not paying attention

to what tool you are using. Until you learn to present yourself and your

position better you will get no support from me.

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Mentor ,
May 03, 2011

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fruityth1ng wrote:

…Me and a few other people, we end up on a wrong layer in our creative process…

PEBKAC, obviously.

Geeze, how long does it take you to learn how an application works?

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Community Beginner ,
May 03, 2011

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I was being childish, totally. For all the wrong reasons even.

Another detail about the layer change & undo:

I think what's causing the interface inconvenience most of all is that the

step backward command steps back two of my actions, where I'd only want it

to step back a single one, my last action (in my case my brush stroke, but

reading this thread it can be any other action). Instead, photoshop goes

"hey, that step backward you asked me to do? Golly, I'll go back that layer

change you did, too! <3"

....photoshop is just being a bit retarded, well meaning, but retarded

nonetheless

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Enthusiast ,
May 03, 2011

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Thanks for the apology.

I understand what you are complaining about, but what you seem to be missing

is that a History State is a State, not simply an Undo.

You are classifying selecting a layer as an action, where technically it

isn't : selecting a layer makes no change to the document. I have no major

problem with an option to include selecting a layer as an action, but I am

inclined to see it as a waste of history states.

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Explorer ,
Jul 12, 2011

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If this is how the history is supposed to work, that's fine.

…But then why doesn't undo/redo work like it does in every other app? Pressing command-z undo multiple times should continue undoing as far back as the app is able to. Command-shift-z should redo. I know Photoshop has been around longer than multiple undos became standard, but they've had quite a few years to catch up. Even Illustrator and InDesign have a proper undo/redo system.

Personally I customize my keyboard shortcuts to use set backward (command-z) and step forward (command-shift-z), just so I can have a mostly normal undo/redo system. But since I'm not using the proper "undo", I run into the layer selection issue.

I don't even care about the default behavior, I'd just like an option to make undo/redo behave like every other app, without running into the frustrating layer selection issue.

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Explorer ,
Jul 12, 2011

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I don't even care about the default behavior, I'd just like an option to make undo/redo behave like every other app, without running into the frustrating layer selection issue.

I agree with the robot, 100%

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Participant ,
Jul 13, 2011

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"I agree with the robot, 100%"

Is it possible to agree more that 100%? Because if it is, that's how much I agree.

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Community Beginner ,
Sep 11, 2018

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I agree much later which is obviously more than 100%. This app behavior is ridiculous and the engineers don't pay attention to actual users using their products. No one would use Photoshop like this by choice. Everyone is adapting to it.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 12, 2018

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Adobe changed the behavior of Step Backward/Foreward starting with photoshop  c 2015

"Step backward/forward operations no longer change the layer selection."

very bottom of page under Other Enhancements

Feature summary | Photoshop CC | 2015.x releases

So have you used photoshop cc 2015 or newer?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 12, 2018

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Holy old thread!

And FWIW, turning on Non-linear History can add quite a bit of flexibility if you want to go back in your document.

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