Color profile

[baylock]

Hi,

I suppose this is a classic question and although it is, I just can't find an answer that fits my own situation or, at least, one that I can simply understand (most answers I read on the internet are just losing me rather quickly).

Can anyone, please, tell me in some simple terms what I am suppose to do to solve my problem (I'm interrested in the why but before anything I'm interrested in the HOW) ?

I created a PSD file here in Europe (Belgium) that is destined to be printed in the US.

Here are the info:

- My computer is an iMac Pro (Retina latest generation)
- My iMac Display color profile (in the iMac Preference settings) is..."iMac"
- The PSD file is created in CMYK, 300 DPI.
- In the "edit/colors" popup of Photoshop, I have these info: Parameters->"Pre-press for North America 2", RGB-> Adobe (1988), CMYK: US Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

I figured, that's it what I have to do since it is meant to be printed in the US, even though it has been created in Europe.

But when I export (for the web), the brightness, contrast and saturation are all messed up compared to the preview inside the PSD project. The final render is completely washed out, even though I check/uncheck the "convert to sRGB" checkbox.
I suppose there are discrepencies between the RVB render and the CMYK file but still, the difference is massively different. It is nothing like a simple CMYK/RVB conversion. it's beyond that.

Same results if I normally export in jpg via the "Save As" option. The preview anywhere else than inside photoshop would be brighter, less contrasted and desaturated to death.
The only way it would restore fine is if I open it within Photoshop and don't forget to select the embedded color profile. Then, it's fine.
Please note that the problem would be just the same if I don't incorporate the color profile while saving the export. The difference is, when importing it in Photoshop again, it will not recover the accurate colors this time.

So, it basically is just a mess to manage as I don't know:

1) How to export the result as a jpg file and still keep the overall same result (for personal use, web exploitation, etc..). I would have liked to send the US printer a jpg preview via the web but there's just no way I can do that because of the discrepencies.
2) how to be sure the printer in the US will see the final PSD file as I intended it to be on his own computer and print it the accurate way with his machines.

Fixing a problem when there is only one varible is ok but when, like here, you have many places in your computer (and even within photoshop) that ask for a profile color, you just can't figure out on your own. Especially when it could very well work on your computer but render differently on someone else's screen/printer.
With no external help, there is no way I can be sure if my settings are alright.

PS: this Europe/USA thing is specific and that's what my question is about but in general, even my RGB pictures, when exported "for the web", are not totally matching my original files. There are always off a bit, even tough it is not extreme. This can be a nightmare when I try to match colors from a website render with the ones on my files as they are not exactly the same.
But here, with this RVB/CMYK, Europe/USA profile scramble, the discrepencies are just huge and impossible to work with.

Thanks for your help.

[D Fosse]

Export and Save For Web both have all color management disabled by default. So they won't match Photoshop. The color profile in the original is stripped. Don't ask me why someone thought this was a good idea, but that's how it is.

You have to check "embed color profile" and set preview to "use document profile". In Export those two are merged.

If you submit CMYK files, you must know the correct CMYK profile to use, and for that you need to ask the printer. No way around that. Offset presses are calibrated to different standards around the world, different inks are used, and so on. That's why we have all these CMYK profiles. The Photoshop default is US Web Coated SWOP, but that's just because there has to be some default. It's fairly commonly used in North and South America, but isn't used anywhere else in the world.

[baylock]

Thank you very much for your answer. I suppose that when you say "embed color profile", you mean the checkbox in the "Save As" popup right? I use a French version of Photoshop CC where it is only mentioned "color:" then the color profile of the document. If so, when I check this (or the "use document profile" when exporting for the web), the iMac preview render of the saved/exported jpg file outside Photoshop is awfully non accurate (it feels like you applied a max brightness filter with the lowest contrast value possible on top of it).

The funnny thing is I'm not able to show anyone the problem because I just can't render a good version of my file to be compared with the bad results I get (obviously).

That said, when the profile is incorporated in the file, the picture will render alright if (and only if) I open it within Photoshop once again (in the copy I use that is as I don't know if it would render fine on anyone else's version of the software). If not in Photoshop, it renders badly.

As for the rest, got it, I need to ask the printer the color profile he uses. But still, I'm totally unable to get the picture right outside Photoshop so far.

[Per Berntsen]

If you use Save As, the file will still be in CMYK, and it could be that the Mac Preview doesn't display CMYK colors correctly. Many applications cannot handle CMYK files. But since I don't use a Mac, I don't know if that's the case here.

To create an RGB version of a CMYK file using Save or Save As, first create a copy of the file. (File > Duplicate)

Then convert it to sRGB (Edit > Convert to profile), and save with Embed profile checked.

I did some experiments with Save for Web and Export, and Save for Web cannot handle CMYK files.  The image becomes desaturated, and Embed profile is grayed out.

But Export works fine, as long as both Convert to sRGB and Embed profile are checked.

[baylock]

Thank you very much. I converted to sRGB and it previews just fine indeed. I guess that exporting for the web a CMYK file doesn't make any sense to begin with but when I convert from RGB to CMYK or from CMYK to RGB within photoshop, the differences are never extreme while they are when exporting for the web. So I figured there was something wrong (especially when "saving As" wasn't working well neither). But yes, your simple solution worked. Thank you. So now, I can accurately export for the web after conversion and I guess that saving with the profile embedded will allow the printer to get the result as intended. I thank you for this.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

no body

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hi baylock, you wrote .  " when I convert from RGB to CMYK or from CMYK to RGB within Photoshop, the differences are never extreme".     The visual differences on screen when you do that are subtle, that’s because Photoshop reads the ICC profile of each ”document” (document is Adobe’s name for a Photoshop file) and converts to the display system profile before sending to the screen. IF you view an image in a non colour managed application, or one that can’t properly handle the image type (like CMYK perhaps) then you’ll see differences that don’t really mean much.  thanks neil barstow, colourmanagement.

[D Fosse]

To be clear, Export (or Save For Web) is not intended for print. "Save As" for print.

As long as you always embed the profile, and always make sure it's the right one for the intended output, you'll be fine. For CMYK, you must always ask the printer what CMYK profile to use.

What complicates it is that Export strips the profile by default, and that it's badly named so that people misunderstand its function. Use Export for web/screen/mobile devices only.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hi baylock,

you wrote : "My iMac Display color profile (in the iMac Preference settings) is..."iMac" . 

that’s not ideal because you should really calibrate the screen and make a profile with a sensor and display calibration aplication.

If you want to se results in print and on calibrated systems that match your own screens appoearance calibration and profiling is rather essential.   

More here: https://www.colourmanagement.net/advice/display-screen-colour-management/

I hope this is helpful

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement

[baylock]

Thank you all for your help and advices.

[NB, colourmanagement net]

Hi Baylock,

Just getting back to 2 of your points - your converting to US Web coated and hoping the printer will see on screen what you sent with the same appearance you saw..

In a nutshell, converting a file to CMYK without good information one the press condition is rather a minefield. If you are unable to discover the correct CMYK ICC profile to use converting from RGB then it’s far better not to do it. Send RGB.

1:

You mention using US Web coated, that ICC profile is pretty antiquated now (although with US work still quite widespread practice).

As DFosse mentioned it's still the Photoshop “North America Prepress ” default, because there HAS to be a Photoshop default for CMYK. [why? default CMYK used when an untagged CMYK file is opened also if you make a new CMYK document (also when selecting "do not colormanage this document).]

Problem with using ‘SWOP’ profiles is that the US print industry has been gradually adopting the more sophisticated GRACoL ICC profiles for a long time now, see https://www.idealliance.org/gracol .

SO - DFosse is right that you have to KNOW that SWOP coated CMYK is what your US printer needs before you decide to use it when converting from RGB. That's because different CMYK ICC profiles describe (sometimes very) different printing conditions, conditions which include - amongst other things - paper colour and the ink recipes needed to attain specific colours.

SO - you do need to know. Only the printer can tell you how his press system is set up.

An unfortunate part of this situation (a tripwire) is that by default Photoshop reads the embedded icc profile of each file, converting in the background to the display ICC - this means that Photshop's not actually showing you the difference between how different CMYK files (of a similar gamut) were made  - You can 'see' that with the eyedropper.

(And that's why good proofing systems don't read the incoming file's ICC profile, they just print the file's CMYK numbers "as is" in the same way that the press will.)

I know it’s a pain, but if this is an important job maybe have a certified proof made locally to check appearance and send it with the file to show your desired appearance. It's definitely safer to send RGB if you don't know the CMYK. 

GMG offer remote proofing which may help you not to have the mail a proof, making a proof near the destinatioin to match the one you saw at home.

If you send RGB we need to hope that the printer knows how to convert that, its becoming pretty common that they do now as they likely receive a lot of CMYK.

2:

Sending an RGB file as an example for appearance [with sRGB embedded] is a good idea as it rules out CMYK issues, BUT it pre-supposes a good calibrated display system at the other end. 

Sadly, with colourmanagement there are few simple answers because its not entirely widely implemented. Sorry about that. I hope you are now less confused, rather than more so.

I hope this is helpful

thanks

neil barstow, colourmanagement