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Photoshop 10bit support

Guest
Oct 15, 2009 Oct 15, 2009

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Hello!

There are 16 and 32bit modes in PS, so my question is: can PS display 10bit color depth per channel if all other components support it? (i.e. Windows 7, ATI FirePro graphics card,10bit monitor connected via Displayport)

If not, will there be an update/plugin? Will the next version of PS support it?

I'm thinking about upgrading. Wouldn't make much sense if the software doesn't support it…

Thanks in advance

Hermann

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Apr 12, 2010 Apr 12, 2010

Actually, the 10 bit/channel display path is working quite well in CS5 - on cards and displays that support it.

Again, we've been working with the manufacturers for a while to get it working...

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Explorer ,
Apr 12, 2010 Apr 12, 2010

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Chris, that great news. I guess, you should make that public so that users know this as a CS5 feature. Do you know wether the new Fermi cards will output 10bit or will Quadro cards be required? And what about ATI?

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Apr 12, 2010 Apr 12, 2010

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I don't have all the details on hand.  We should be documenting the requirements for 10 bit display when we get closer to shipping.

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Explorer ,
Apr 24, 2010 Apr 24, 2010

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Chris,

I still couldn`t find anything in the system requirements for PS CS5 for 10bit output. Where will I be able to find details?

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Explorer ,
Apr 24, 2010 Apr 24, 2010

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Well great. I just bought a NEC P221 because I didn't see any need to spend fancy money on hardware that couldn't live up to its potential. While the NEC has a 10 bit internal LUT, it has only DVI connections and so is doomed to receive 8 bit input forever.

Still, it's the nicest monitor I've had that wasn't a CRT.

Now, to recap. Win7 has high bit capability and CS5 apparently has it under the hood somewhere. So, THIS generation of hardware and software finally gets us there?

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New Here ,
Apr 29, 2010 Apr 29, 2010

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there's support with Firepro from ATI: http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/ATI_FirePro_Adobe_10-Bit_FAQ_030910.pdf

It works with CS5 on Win7.

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Explorer ,
Apr 30, 2010 Apr 30, 2010

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SDHD,

That PDF is very interesting. Did you try it with this card and CS5?

Do you also have a link to something similar from nvidia?

I`m wondering why this feature is only available to the pro cards. I guess, it`s not expensive.

Some day I guess it will be standard to all cards.

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Apr 29, 2010 Apr 29, 2010

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We haven't documented it yet - we're still working on it. (yes, there are more complications than you could imagine)

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New Here ,
Apr 30, 2010 Apr 30, 2010

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I asked Adobe support about 10bit/colour channel support and the Nvidia Quadro FX1800 and they referred me to the after effects OpenGL supported card document.


www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/opengl.html

It does not mention 10bit/colour channel at all.  Why can't we get a straight answer? like "no", "yes", "we are still working on it" rather than pretend answers?

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Apr 30, 2010 Apr 30, 2010

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Read what I already said.

Yes, "we're still working on it".

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New Here ,
May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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I can confirm that PS5 still does not displays pictures in 10-bit per channel format. Its a shame. Once again SW is far behind HW...

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Explorer ,
May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

which graphicscard, OS, monitor and monitorconnection (displayport?) did you use? And how could you tell, which bitdepth is displayed?

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New Here ,
May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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Tested it on nVidia Quadro FX1800 + EIZO SX2462W connected via Displayport + Windows 7 Professional 64bit + actual drivers and patches.

I simply draw a grayscale gradient and can clearly see steps /banding/ between each color. When i switch mode of file to 8-bit per color, the picture remains the same

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Explorer ,
May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

there still may be one component that could cause the banding you see: The monitor color profile itself. Maybe you could use sRGB as monitor profile just for test purpose and try again. Maybe you also should disable any LUT loaders and also reset the monitor to its default settings just for testing.

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Guest
May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

on this page you can download a .psd file to test 10-bit display:

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/tools/pages/tools.aspx

I'm confused… according to this site it should even work in CS4?!

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May 19, 2010 May 19, 2010

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Once again SW is far behind HW...

Not really. The HW (and drivers) aren't quite ready for prime time.  We're still working on it.

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New Here ,
Apr 30, 2010 Apr 30, 2010

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Hello, I am new to the forum in terms of posting.   I usually only read the responses but 10-bit support peaked my interest to the point that I felt like posting.  I apologize if the question is stupid but I have had this lingering question for a long time

My understanding is that to get 10-bit color a lot things need to come together

The underlying OS has to support it

The Video Card needs to support it and you need use DisplayPort

The Monitor has to have a 10-LUT (or in the case of the new NEC PA24W, a 3-D LUT) and supports wide gamut aRGB

The Video Driver has to support it so that software can be written against it

Finally, Adobe PS has to write software maybe even specific to a card/driver to display the information correctly

Then, I assume, so that all this work is not lost, I assume you need a 16bit printer driver as well to complete the workflow (which I believe Epson has at least on the Mac but I do know that Vista/Win7 does support)

So, given the above and given that many tutorials today prior to CS5 say "Work in aRGB or ProPhoto", how does one do that if all we have is 8bit sRGB monitors?  Can we possibly see the difference?

I am just trying to understand how tutorials and books tell us to use wide gamut color spaces when we all have sRGB and PS only to this point only supports sRGB and we only just now have the possiblity of getting 10-bit wide gamut support.

I am obviously missing something or don't understand what is happening under the hood.

Hopefully my response is not stupid and someone more knowledgeable can explain.

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Guest
May 01, 2010 May 01, 2010

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emaini, here's how I understand it:

An 8 bit monitor can display a certain number of steps between colours. Until a few years ago most monitors were only able to display the small sRGB colour-space. Depending on how good your monitor is you may or may not see colour-banding with those. But when you have a wide gamut 8bit monitor, the steps between colours stay the same, but get spread out over the wider gamut. The spaces get larger (the transitions between colours get rougher) and banding/tone seperation is more likely to appear. With a higher bit display you increase the number of steps and get rid of banding.

In other words: the „saturation“ or intensity of the colours stays the same, because it's bound to your monitor's gamut, but with 10 bit you get more steps (=more colours) in between.

Quick comment regarding ProPhoto: No monitor is able to display such a huge colour-space. You use it only to preserve colours, to make sure you don't „run out of space“ (=lose colours) while working on your pictures. That's also why you use 16-bit in Photoshop. You can't see it directly, but it gives you more steps between tones and thus helps avoid posterisation.

Hope this helped!

Chris, thanks for keeping us up to date, much appreciated!

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New Here ,
Aug 12, 2010 Aug 12, 2010

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Has there been any progress about this? I'm about to configure a system for a customer and I'll be using a NEC PA241W monitor, which supports both extended gamut and 10-bpc input.

Windows 7 is ready.

NVidia Quadros are ready.

Is Photoshop CS5 definitely ready?

Any official documentation on the subject yet?

Thanks

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Aug 12, 2010 Aug 12, 2010

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AMD/ATI has some driver tricks that enable 10 bit in some cases.

But our full support is still waiting on driver testing.

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New Here ,
Aug 14, 2010 Aug 14, 2010

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Thanks Chris, but from your reply I don't quite get if you mean you're testing ATI drivers or drivers in general. Nvidia officially supports 10 bpc output on their Quadro drivers (NOT on the GeForce series), that's why I have selected them for my Photoshop customers' builds.

So may I ask specifically if you currently provide support for the Nvidia Quadro series, since their drivers do officially support 10 bpc?

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Aug 16, 2010 Aug 16, 2010

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We are testing drivers in general.

We can't say which cards/drivers we'll support at this time.

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Explorer ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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Chris,

could you try to convince nvidia that they should support 10bit output also on the Geforce cards and not only on their Quadros? IMO there`s no need for a Quadro for Photoshop and so I guess 99,99% of PS users don`t have a Quadro. I`m pretty sure that the Geforce hardware can do 10bit and only the drivers are limited. Since nvidia and Adobe seem to cooperate very well, maybe they listen to you.

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New Here ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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I don't know how much pressure Chris or Adobe can put on Nvidia, but I definitely second that. My customers cringe at the price when I tell them they need a Quadro for a 10 bpc workflow.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm positive about it being just a drivers issue. I'm in conversations with some manufacturers who offer GeForce cards with DisplayPort and they say it's just the drivers that don't allow them to put 10 bpc on the output.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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I might be wrong, but why not just dither 16-bit data for 8-bit display, as Lightroom 3 does, for example? Even the finest gradients seem to look really smooth for all practical purposes. At least there's no need to depend on third parties (displays, graphics cards, drivers, OSes).

Or am I missing something obvious (not so obvious)? Is anyone willing to educate me?

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Aug 17, 2010 Aug 17, 2010

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For the same reason you don't sprinkle salt on broken glass and call it a window.

Photoshop already dithers when going to the display, because that's the only real option available.

But the 10 bit display path is much higher quality.

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