Photoshop 10bit support

New Here ,
Oct 15, 2009

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Hello!

There are 16 and 32bit modes in PS, so my question is: can PS display 10bit color depth per channel if all other components support it? (i.e. Windows 7, ATI FirePro graphics card,10bit monitor connected via Displayport)

If not, will there be an update/plugin? Will the next version of PS support it?

I'm thinking about upgrading. Wouldn't make much sense if the software doesn't support it…

Thanks in advance

Hermann

Actually, the 10 bit/channel display path is working quite well in CS5 - on cards and displays that support it.

Again, we've been working with the manufacturers for a while to get it working...

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New Here ,
Apr 30, 2010

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I asked Adobe support about 10bit/colour channel support and the Nvidia Quadro FX1800 and they referred me to the after effects OpenGL supported card document.


www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/opengl.html

It does not mention 10bit/colour channel at all.  Why can't we get a straight answer? like "no", "yes", "we are still working on it" rather than pretend answers?

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Apr 30, 2010

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Read what I already said.

Yes, "we're still working on it".

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New Here ,
May 19, 2010

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I can confirm that PS5 still does not displays pictures in 10-bit per channel format. Its a shame. Once again SW is far behind HW...

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Explorer ,
May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

which graphicscard, OS, monitor and monitorconnection (displayport?) did you use? And how could you tell, which bitdepth is displayed?

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New Here ,
May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

on this page you can download a .psd file to test 10-bit display:

http://www.amd.com/us/products/workstation/graphics/tools/pages/tools.aspx

I'm confused… according to this site it should even work in CS4?!

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New Here ,
May 19, 2010

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Tested it on nVidia Quadro FX1800 + EIZO SX2462W connected via Displayport + Windows 7 Professional 64bit + actual drivers and patches.

I simply draw a grayscale gradient and can clearly see steps /banding/ between each color. When i switch mode of file to 8-bit per color, the picture remains the same

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Explorer ,
May 19, 2010

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Mikrotom,

there still may be one component that could cause the banding you see: The monitor color profile itself. Maybe you could use sRGB as monitor profile just for test purpose and try again. Maybe you also should disable any LUT loaders and also reset the monitor to its default settings just for testing.

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May 19, 2010

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Once again SW is far behind HW...

Not really. The HW (and drivers) aren't quite ready for prime time.  We're still working on it.

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New Here ,
Apr 30, 2010

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Hello, I am new to the forum in terms of posting.   I usually only read the responses but 10-bit support peaked my interest to the point that I felt like posting.  I apologize if the question is stupid but I have had this lingering question for a long time

My understanding is that to get 10-bit color a lot things need to come together

The underlying OS has to support it

The Video Card needs to support it and you need use DisplayPort

The Monitor has to have a 10-LUT (or in the case of the new NEC PA24W, a 3-D LUT) and supports wide gamut aRGB

The Video Driver has to support it so that software can be written against it

Finally, Adobe PS has to write software maybe even specific to a card/driver to display the information correctly

Then, I assume, so that all this work is not lost, I assume you need a 16bit printer driver as well to complete the workflow (which I believe Epson has at least on the Mac but I do know that Vista/Win7 does support)

So, given the above and given that many tutorials today prior to CS5 say "Work in aRGB or ProPhoto", how does one do that if all we have is 8bit sRGB monitors?  Can we possibly see the difference?

I am just trying to understand how tutorials and books tell us to use wide gamut color spaces when we all have sRGB and PS only to this point only supports sRGB and we only just now have the possiblity of getting 10-bit wide gamut support.

I am obviously missing something or don't understand what is happening under the hood.

Hopefully my response is not stupid and someone more knowledgeable can explain.

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New Here ,
May 01, 2010

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emaini, here's how I understand it:

An 8 bit monitor can display a certain number of steps between colours. Until a few years ago most monitors were only able to display the small sRGB colour-space. Depending on how good your monitor is you may or may not see colour-banding with those. But when you have a wide gamut 8bit monitor, the steps between colours stay the same, but get spread out over the wider gamut. The spaces get larger (the transitions between colours get rougher) and banding/tone seperation is more likely to appear. With a higher bit display you increase the number of steps and get rid of banding.

In other words: the „saturation“ or intensity of the colours stays the same, because it's bound to your monitor's gamut, but with 10 bit you get more steps (=more colours) in between.

Quick comment regarding ProPhoto: No monitor is able to display such a huge colour-space. You use it only to preserve colours, to make sure you don't „run out of space“ (=lose colours) while working on your pictures. That's also why you use 16-bit in Photoshop. You can't see it directly, but it gives you more steps between tones and thus helps avoid posterisation.

Hope this helped!

Chris, thanks for keeping us up to date, much appreciated!

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New Here ,
Aug 12, 2010

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Has there been any progress about this? I'm about to configure a system for a customer and I'll be using a NEC PA241W monitor, which supports both extended gamut and 10-bpc input.

Windows 7 is ready.

NVidia Quadros are ready.

Is Photoshop CS5 definitely ready?

Any official documentation on the subject yet?

Thanks

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Aug 12, 2010

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AMD/ATI has some driver tricks that enable 10 bit in some cases.

But our full support is still waiting on driver testing.

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New Here ,
Aug 14, 2010

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Thanks Chris, but from your reply I don't quite get if you mean you're testing ATI drivers or drivers in general. Nvidia officially supports 10 bpc output on their Quadro drivers (NOT on the GeForce series), that's why I have selected them for my Photoshop customers' builds.

So may I ask specifically if you currently provide support for the Nvidia Quadro series, since their drivers do officially support 10 bpc?

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Aug 16, 2010

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We are testing drivers in general.

We can't say which cards/drivers we'll support at this time.

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Explorer ,
Aug 17, 2010

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Chris,

could you try to convince nvidia that they should support 10bit output also on the Geforce cards and not only on their Quadros? IMO there`s no need for a Quadro for Photoshop and so I guess 99,99% of PS users don`t have a Quadro. I`m pretty sure that the Geforce hardware can do 10bit and only the drivers are limited. Since nvidia and Adobe seem to cooperate very well, maybe they listen to you.

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New Here ,
Aug 17, 2010

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I don't know how much pressure Chris or Adobe can put on Nvidia, but I definitely second that. My customers cringe at the price when I tell them they need a Quadro for a 10 bpc workflow.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm positive about it being just a drivers issue. I'm in conversations with some manufacturers who offer GeForce cards with DisplayPort and they say it's just the drivers that don't allow them to put 10 bpc on the output.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 17, 2010

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I might be wrong, but why not just dither 16-bit data for 8-bit display, as Lightroom 3 does, for example? Even the finest gradients seem to look really smooth for all practical purposes. At least there's no need to depend on third parties (displays, graphics cards, drivers, OSes).

Or am I missing something obvious (not so obvious)? Is anyone willing to educate me?

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Aug 17, 2010

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For the same reason you don't sprinkle salt on broken glass and call it a window.

Photoshop already dithers when going to the display, because that's the only real option available.

But the 10 bit display path is much higher quality.

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Engaged ,
Aug 17, 2010

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Salt on broken glass. Yum!

Hot or cold, Chris?

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New Here ,
Aug 18, 2010

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I've just got an e-mail from Zotac's support in Europe that confirms I can use their GTX 460 model ZT-40402-10P and get 10 bpc from its DisplayPort output. They literally say:


nVidia has confirm that current drivers will support 10 bit output.

Best regards,

Eurotech team

(This is the latest e-mail from a long conversation where I have exposed the issues with 10 bpc and GeForce cards, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, etc. It's not the typical first response from marketing. It's taken a few days for them to contact Nvidia and confirm the fact. They will only support 10 bpc from the DisplayPort output.)

This means 10 bpc output is NOT crippled in the drivers and, contrary to the general belief, it would be present in GeForce cards with a DisplayPort (these are rare, indeed, but do exist). It would be nice if Adobe could confirm this as well with Nvidia.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 18, 2010

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Yes, but this is all very early in it's development yet. There are still questions like, what resolutions are supported? how is it handled with multi-monitors? what operating systems implement this? how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

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Explorer ,
Aug 18, 2010

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Aleve, this is very interesting! I have a GTX 470 with display port. But one question: Take a look at page 28 on this PDF:

http://de.download.nvidia.com/Windows/257.21/257.21_NVIDIA_Control_Panel_Quick_Start_Guide.pdf

There`s an option "deep color for 3D application".

This option should enable 10bit output. Can you find this option in your driver? I cannot

I couldn`t even find it on some driver screenshots that I saw on the web for a Quadro card.

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New Here ,
Aug 18, 2010

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There are still questions like, what resolutions are supported?

The same resolutions available on 8 bpc

how is it handled with multi-monitors?

Why would it be any different than 8 bpc

what operating systems implement this?

Windows 7 implements 8, 10 and 16 bpc

how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

This question is really nit-picking. Every piece of software, no matter what, has bugs.

10 bpc is NOT in its early development at Nvidia. Quadros have supported this for long. The only question here is wether Nvidia wants their GeForce cards to provide 10 bpc support or not. And what Zotac support has been replied by Nvidia itself is that THERE IS  10 bpc in their drivers for GeForce.

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New Here ,
Aug 18, 2010

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I don't own any Nvidia GeForce with DisplayPort. I'm just researching the subject in order to implement a 10 bpc workflow for the workstations I build and sell.

As soon as I get my hands on one of these cards (soon), I'll be in close contact with Zotac support regarding how to enable 10 bpc in Windows 7.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 18, 2010

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how many bugs are there related to 10bit support in the drivers/OS/PS?

This question is really nit-picking. Every piece of software, no matter what, has bugs.

That wasn't my point, my point is that you have to take the bugs inherent in the drivers+OS+PS to figure out exactly how mature the implementation is. Saying that the drivers support 10bits means about as much as saying that it supports the OpenGL Drawing features from Photoshop and look how many video card related threads are around here. All Photoshop needs for OpenGL Drawing are OpenGL 2.0 and Shader Model 3.0 both of which have been available since the Geforce 6xxx/Radeon X1xxx series but it's still one of the most comon problems around here.

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New Here ,
Aug 18, 2010

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I see. I don't think it's quite comparable (the 10 bpc issue should be easier to address than OpenGL features) but you have a point.

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Engaged ,
May 26, 2011

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Chris Cox wrote:

For the same reason you don't sprinkle salt on broken glass and call it a window.

LOL!

Apropos, Chris.  Have to file that away in my pithy answers file!

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New Here ,
Aug 22, 2010

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hi there!......

so, this is my expirience........

Win 7 64bit, PScs5, Dell 2711, Ati FirePro 8750, conected thro display port,

latest firepro 8.762 beta5 driver,

yes, all works just fine, U put 10 bit test ramp image in PS and there

is no banding, but in full frame.. windowed.. banding is back, also (of course)

when drag window to another monitor wich has not 10 bit support..........

everithyng looks just nice and work well..... no crashing....

cheers..

bibo.......

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