Weird Crop tool behaviour with 16-bit files

Explorer ,
Jun 01, 2012

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Shadow areas of my 16-bit files show strange patterns if I use the Crop tool to rotate. I can also replicate the problem by doing the following:

Make a new empty 16-bit file in PS6 in RGB mode (File>New). Fill it with 100% black. Use the Crop tool and rotate to taste. Press Enter to accept the crop and zoom in to enjoy the black and grey noise patterning reminiscent of a man's suit. The Straighten tool will achieve the same result. Your suit pattern will vary according to the degree of rotation.

The problem goes away if you subsequently convert the file to 8-bit, or convert to any other mode (Greyscale, Lab, CMYK).

This patterning is easily visible at 100% view or less, and appears whether the View>Show>Pixel Grid option is on or off. It is decidedly NOT the pixel grid I am seeing.

This effect can be created with files from both my Canon and Hasselblad cameras.

I'm using a Mac Pro with OS10.6.8.

Bingo! If I download my .psd file, and then  open it in PS6 with 'Use Graphics Processor' unselected, guess what? Yes, NO patterning! So UGP is the cucial element.

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Jun 01, 2012

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Which version of Photoshop are you using?

And which options for the crop tool?

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Explorer ,
Jun 01, 2012

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Hello Chris

I'm using PS6. I invoke the Crop tool, Unconstrained, Delete Cropped Pixels unselected. Degree of rotation doesn't matter, though the pattern noise will vary with the degree of rotation.

I have now discovered that this weirdness ONLY happens with crop rotation of 16-bit files. If I open a 32-bit file and rotate, there is no patterning. If I convert this rotated crop to 16-bit, there is no change. But if I convert the file to 16-bit and THEN rotate, I get the noise again. 8-bit files do not show this behaviour. Saving rotated 16-bit files to TIFF and PSD preserves the patterning. Converting these files to jpeg (8-bit, obviously) removes the noise.

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Explorer ,
Jun 04, 2012

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Problem 'explained'!!! The video card is implicated.

Go to Preferences>Performance. If under Detected Graphics Processor, you have checked Use Graphics Processor, then the 16-bit file crop/rotation weirdness will occur as described above. If you leave it unchecked, then restart PS6, the gentlemen's suit patterns will no longer appear upon cropping/rotating.

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Jun 04, 2012

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Which GPU are you using?

We'll have to investigate a bit more to isolate the cause.

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Explorer ,
Jun 05, 2012

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  Chipset Model:          ATI Radeon HD 4870

  Type:          GPU

  Bus:          PCIe

  Slot:          Slot-1

  PCIe Lane Width:          x16

  VRAM (Total):          512 MB

  Vendor:          ATI (0x1002)

  Device ID:          0x9440

  Revision ID:          0x0000

  ROM Revision:          113-B7710F-176

  EFI Driver Version:          01.00.318

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Explorer ,
Jun 05, 2012

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I have now heard from owners of the ATI Radeon HD 5800 and the Nvidia 570M that they too suffer from this patterning b ehaviour.

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Explorer ,
Jun 25, 2012

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Any news, Chris?

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Jun 25, 2012

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We have not been able to reproduce this problem.

But it could be something about your video card or driver version.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 25, 2012

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It would be good to get more detail about what version of the driver you have.

In Photoshop do Help - System Info, copy, then post the info here.

-Noel

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Adobe Photoshop Version: 13.0 (13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00) x64

Operating System: Mac OS 10.6.8

System architecture: Intel CPU Family:6, Model:26, Stepping:5 with MMX, SSE Integer, SSE FP, SSE2, SSE3, SSE4.1, SSE4.2, HyperThreading

Physical processor count: 8

Logical processor count: 16

Processor speed: 2260 MHz

Built-in memory: 16384 MB

Free memory: 10979 MB

Memory available to Photoshop: 15749 MB

Memory used by Photoshop: 71 %

Image tile size: 1024K

Image cache levels: 6

OpenGL Drawing: Enabled.

OpenGL Drawing Mode: Normal

OpenGL Allow Normal Mode: True.

OpenGL Allow Advanced Mode: True.

OpenGL Allow Old GPUs: Not Detected.

OpenGL Version: 2.1 ATI-1.6.36

OpenCL Version:

Video Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

Video Card Renderer: ATI Radeon HD 4870 OpenGL Engine

Display: 2

Display Depth:= 32

Display Bounds:=  top: 0, left: -1920, bottom: 1200, right: 0

Video Renderer ID: 16914951

Video Card Memory: 495 MB

Video Rect Texture Size: 8192

OpenGL Version: 2.1 ATI-1.6.36

OpenCL Version: 1.0 (Dec 23 2010 17:30:26)

Video Card Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.

Video Card Renderer: ATI Radeon HD 4870 OpenGL Engine

Display: 1

Main Display

Display Depth:= 32

Display Bounds:=  top: 0, left: 0, bottom: 1024, right: 1280

Video Renderer ID: 16914951

Video Card Memory: 495 MB

Video Rect Texture Size: 8192

Serial number: 91199850316091008089

Application folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:

Photoshop scratch has async I/O enabled

Scratch volume(s):

  RAID 1, 3.64T, 1.11T free

  HD1, 595.9G, 301.3G free

Required Plug-ins folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:Adobe Photoshop CS6.app:Contents:Required:

Primary Plug-ins folder: HD1:Applications:Adobe Photoshop CS6:Plug-ins:

Additional Plug-ins folder: not set

Installed components:

   adbeape.framework   adbeape   3.3.8.19346   66.1025012

   AdbeScriptUIFlex.framework   AdbeScriptUIFlex   6.2.29.18602   66.490082

   adobe_caps.framework   adobe_caps   6.0.29.0   1.276181

   AdobeACE.framework   AdobeACE   2.19.18.19243   66.492997

   AdobeAGM.framework   AdobeAGM   4.26.17.19243   66.492997

   AdobeAXE8SharedExpat.framework   AdobeAXE8SharedExpat   3.7.101.18636   66.26830

   AdobeAXEDOMCore.framework   AdobeAXEDOMCore   3.7.101.18636   66.26830

   AdobeBIB.framework   AdobeBIB   1.2.02.19243   66.492997

   AdobeBIBUtils.framework   AdobeBIBUtils   1.1.01   66.492997

   AdobeCoolType.framework   AdobeCoolType   5.10.31.19243   66.492997

   AdobeCrashReporter.framework   AdobeCrashReporter   6.0.20120201  

   AdobeExtendScript.framework   AdobeExtendScript   4.2.12.18602   66.490082

   AdobeJP2K.framework   AdobeJP2K   2.0.0.18562   66.236923

   AdobeLinguistic.framework      17206  

   AdobeMPS.framework   AdobeMPS   5.8.0.19463   66.495174

   AdobeOwl.framework   AdobeOwl   4.0.93   66.496052

   AdobePDFL.framework   AdobePDFL   10.0.1.18562   66.419471

   AdobePDFSettings.framework   AdobePDFSettings   1.4  

   AdobePIP.framework   AdobePIP   6.0.0.1654  

   AdobeScCore.framework   AdobeScCore   4.2.12.18602   66.490082

   AdobeUpdater.framework   AdobeUpdater   6.0.0.1452   "52.338651"

   AdobeXMP.framework   AdobeXMPCore   66.145661   66.145661

   AdobeXMPFiles.framework   AdobeXMPFiles   66.145661   66.145661

   AdobeXMPScript.framework   AdobeXMPScript   66.145661   66.145661

   ahclient.framework   ahclient   1.7.0.56  

   aif_core.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   aif_ocl.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   aif_ogl.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   AlignmentLib.framework   xcode   1.0.0.1  

   amtlib.framework   amtlib   6.0.0.75  

   boost_date_time.framework   boost_date_time   6.0.0.0  

   boost_signals.framework   boost_signals   6.0.0.0  

   boost_system.framework   boost_system   6.0.0.0  

   boost_threads.framework   boost_threads   6.0.0.0  

   Cg.framework   NVIDIA Cg     

   CIT.framework   CIT   2.0.5.19287   145486

   data_flow.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   dvaaudiodevice.framework   dvaaudiodevice   6.0.0.0  

   dvacore.framework   dvacore   6.0.0.0  

   dvamarshal.framework   dvamarshal   6.0.0.0  

   dvamediatypes.framework   dvamediatypes   6.0.0.0  

   dvaplayer.framework   dvaplayer   6.0.0.0  

   dvatransport.framework   dvatransport   6.0.0.0  

   dvaunittesting.framework   dvaunittesting   6.0.0.0  

   dynamiclink.framework   dynamiclink   6.0.0.0  

   FileInfo.framework   FileInfo   66.145433   66.145433

   filter_graph.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   hydra_filters.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   ICUConverter.framework   ICUConverter   3.61   "gtlib_3.0" "." "16615"

   ICUData.framework   ICUData   3.61   "gtlib_3.0" "." "16615"

   image_compiler.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   image_flow.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   image_runtime.framework   AdobeAIF   3.0.00   62.490293

   LogSession.framework   LogSession   2.1.2.1652  

   mediacoreif.framework   mediacoreif   6.0.0.0  

   PlugPlug.framework   PlugPlug   3.0.0.383  

   UpdaterNotifications.framework   UpdaterNotifications   6.0.0.24   "6.0.0.24"

   wrservices.framework        

Required plug-ins:

   Accented Edges 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Adaptive Wide Angle 13.0, Copyright © 2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Adaptive Wide Angle.plugin”

   ADM 3.10x16, Copyright © 1987-2008 Adobe Systems Inc.  All rights reserved. - from the file “AdobeADM.bundle”

   Angled Strokes 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Average 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Average.plugin”

   Bas Relief 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   BMP 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Camera Raw 7.1 (354), Copyright © 2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Camera Raw.plugin”

   Chalk & Charcoal 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Charcoal 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Chrome 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Cineon 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2002-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Cineon.plugin”

   Clouds 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Clouds.plugin”

   Collada DAE 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2006-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “U3D.plugin”

   Color Halftone 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Colored Pencil 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   CompuServe GIF 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Conté Crayon 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Craquelure 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Crop and Straighten Photos 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “CropPhotosAuto.plugin”

   Crop and Straighten Photos Filter 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Crosshatch 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Crystallize 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Cutout 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Dark Strokes 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   De-Interlace 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Difference Clouds 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Clouds.plugin”

   Diffuse Glow 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Displace 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Dry Brush 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Eazel Acquire 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1997-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “EazelAcquire.plugin”

   Embed Watermark NO VERSION - from the file “DigiSign.plugin”

   Enable Async I/O 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  © 2004-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Enable Async IO.plugin”

   Extrude 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   FastCore Routines 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1990-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “FastCore.plugin”

   Fibers 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Film Grain 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Filter Gallery 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Fresco 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Glass 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Glowing Edges 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Grain 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Graphic Pen 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Halftone Pattern 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   HDRMergeUI 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “HDRMergeUI.plugin”

   IFF Format 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Ink Outlines 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   JPEG 2000 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2001-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “JPEG2000.plugin”

   Lens Blur 13.0, Copyright © 2002-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Lens Blur.plugin”

   Lens Correction 13.0, Copyright © 2002-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Lens Correct.plugin”

   Lens Flare 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Liquify 13.0, Copyright © 2001-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Liquify.plugin”

   Matlab Operation 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “ChannelPort.plugin”

   Measurement Core 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “MeasurementCore.plugin”

   Mezzotint 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   MMXCore Routines 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1990-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “MMXCore.plugin”

   Mosaic Tiles 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Multiprocessor Support 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1990-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “MultiProcessor Support.plugin”

   Neon Glow 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Note Paper 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   NTSC Colors 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “NTSC Colors.plugin”

   Ocean Ripple 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Oil Paint 13.0, Copyright © 2011 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Oil Paint.plugin”

   OpenEXR 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Paint Daubs 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Palette Knife 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Patchwork 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Paths to Illustrator 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   PCX 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1989-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “PCX.plugin”

   Photocopy 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Photoshop 3D Engine 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2006-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Photoshop3DEngine.plugin”

   Picture Package Filter 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “ChannelPort.plugin”

   Pinch 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Pixar 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1989-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Pixar.plugin”

   Plaster 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Plastic Wrap 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   PNG 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Pointillize 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Polar Coordinates 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Portable Bit Map 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1989-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “PBM.plugin”

   Poster Edges 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Radial Blur 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Radiance 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Radiance.plugin”

   Read Watermark NO VERSION - from the file “DigiRead.plugin”

   Reticulation 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Ripple 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Rough Pastels 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Save for Web 13.0, Copyright © 1999-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Save for Web.plugin”

   ScriptingSupport 13.0, Copyright © 2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “ScriptingSupport.plugin”

   Shear 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Smart Blur 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Smudge Stick 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Solarize 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1993-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Solarize.plugin”

   Spatter 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Spherize 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Sponge 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Sprayed Strokes 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Stained Glass 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Stamp 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Sumi-e 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Targa 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Texturizer 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Tiles 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Torn Edges 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Twirl 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Underpainting 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Vanishing Point 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “VanishingPoint.plugin”

   Water Paper 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Watercolor 13.0, Copyright © 1991-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Filter Gallery.plugin”

   Wave 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Wind 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

   Wireless Bitmap 13.0 20120315.r.428 2012/03/15:21:00:00  ©1989-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “WBMP.plugin”

   ZigZag 13.0, Copyright © 2003-2012 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Standard Multiplugin.plugin”

Optional and third party plug-ins:

   BWStyler 1.03 BWStyler 1.03 © 2006-11 Harald Heim & The Plugin Site - from the file “BWStyler.plugin”

   Hidden Topaz Labs Denoise - from the file “TopazRemaskAutomate.plugin”

   Imagenomic Plug-in Console 1.2 (c) 2010 Imagenomic, LLC. - from the file “ImagenomicPluginConsole.plugin”

   Nik Selective Tool 2.103, Copyright © 2000-2012 Nik Software Inc. - from the file “SelectivePalette.plugin”

   PG-Processor 2.0.1 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PG-Processor.plugin”

   PhotoKit Capture Sharpener 2 2.0.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PhotoKit Sharpener 2.plugin”

   PhotoKit Creative Sharpener 2 2.0.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PhotoKit Sharpener 2.plugin”

   PhotoKit Output Sharpener 2 2.0.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PhotoKit Sharpener 2.plugin”

   PhotoKit Preview Helper 2.1.6 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PG Toolbox Previewer.plugin”

   PixelGenius Toolbox 2.2.1 ©2002-2010 PixelGenius LLC - from the file “PixelGenius Toolbox.plugin”

   Portraiture 2.3 © 2004-2010 Imagenomic, LLC - from the file “Portraiture.plugin”

   Silver Efex Pro 2 2.004, Copyright © 2000-2012 Nik Software Inc. - from the file “Silver Efex Pro 2.plugin”

   Topaz ReMask 3 CS3 (10.0) ©1993-2007 Adobe Systems Incorporated - from the file “Topaz_remask3.plugin”

Plug-ins that failed to load: NONE

Flash:

   Eric's

   Mini Bridge

   Kuler

Installed TWAIN devices: NONE

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Jun 26, 2012

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I'm using a Radeon 4870 here at home, with MacOS 10.6.8 -- and cannot reproduce those artifacts.

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Hi Chris

The problem has been replicated by other users with different cards (a ATI Radeon HD 5800, for example).

The key conditions are: 16-bit file, RGB, with 'Use Graphics Processor' selected in Preferences. Saving as TIFF or .psd preserves the patterning. Saving as jpeg removes it.

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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For an example of the patterning, download the file (1mb) at http://www.erickellermanphotography.com/pattern.psd

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New Here ,
Jun 26, 2012

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I assume I'm the affected user Eric is referring to with the Radeon HD 5800. I am running Windows 7 64x on an 17-2600 machine with 12GB RAM. The video-card driver is version 8.961.

This problem has rendered the crop and tilt function on CS6 more or less useless to me at present. It seems to be some kind of interference effect, because, for me, the patterning is remarkably uniform - long, intersecting lines very much like a ghost tartan watermark on the image. The attached image shows the patterning at 500%. This occurred on a 16-bit image after a minor crop and tilt. It is only really visible when zoomed in, but is definitely burned into the image. I use GPU acceleration in Normal mode.

Peter ReesCS6 crop pattern.jpg

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Yes, this is the basic patterning I have too. The degree of rotation determines the final effect.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Here's a weird thing:  I just opened the file http://www.erickellermanphotography.com/pattern.psd on my PC in Photoshop CS6 and it is perfectly black.

I even added two extreme curves adjustment layers above the background.  There is no pattern there.

-Noel

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Do you see a difference when you choose different settings in the Crop tool for [  ] Delete Cropped Pixels?

-Noel

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New Here ,
Jun 26, 2012

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I don't know about Eric, but I don't have a Mac. Eric's pattern is certainly there on my screen, though. Oddly, when I select the pattern with the eyedropper, the info palette shows no difference in colour between the pattern and the background - both register as R0G0B0.

The issue occurs whatever you select under Delete Cropped Pixels. Here's another weird thing though - I just noticed on a layered image (multiple image layers) that the pattern wasn't visible until I deselected the top layer - in other words, it only affected the background layer, although the two layers are nearly identical (one is sharpened).

Peter

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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If 'Delete Cropped PIxels' remains unchecked, the effect occurs. If it's checked, then rotation has no effect. And I just downloaded my own PSD file, and lo and behold! The noise is till there! No adjustment layer has any effect, as far as I can see. And I also fail to pick up any differences with the eye dropper.

I'm a Mac user.

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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There is in implicational order at work: If 'Use Graphics Processor' is selected in Preferences>Performance, then not checking [ ] Delete Cropped Pixels produces the effect. If 'Use Graphics Processor' is not selected (after restarfting PS), then it doesn't matter whether 'Delete Cropped Pixels' is selected or not.

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Bingo! If I download my .psd file, and then  open it in PS6 with 'Use Graphics Processor' unselected, guess what? Yes, NO patterning! So UGP is the cucial element.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Seems to me it's a video driver issue then, and it may only be affecting your display when pixels extend beyond the boundary of the visible canvas.

  • I have an ATI Radeon HD 5670 with Catalyst 12.2 drivers (internally numbered 8.950.0.0) and don't see the problem.

  • Eric has an ATI Radeon HD 4670 with the drivers shipping with Apple's OSX 10.6.8 and DOES see the problem.
  • Peter has an ATI Radeon HD 5800 with Catalyst 12.4 drivers (internally numbered 8.961) and DOES see the problem.

My conclusion is that it's a problem recently introduced by ATI.  This is not surprising, their recent driver versions have not worked well with Photoshop.  The last good version was Catalyst 12.2.

Eric, you pretty much need to wait on Apple to provide new drivers with an OS update.

Peter, you could either uninstall Catalyst 12.4 and drop back to 12.2, or you could move forward to ATI's 12.6 beta version.

-Noel

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Jun 26, 2012

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The artifacts are in the transparency channel, not the color channels.

Layer -> Layer Mask -> From transparency to get them into a visible mask

They do look like interpolation artifacts (like something used low precision math for the transparency channel).

But I still can't reproduce that on my system with Photoshop CS6 (10.6.8, Radeo 4870).

  Chipset Model:          ATI Radeon HD 4870

  Type:          GPU

  Bus:          PCIe

  Slot:          Slot-1

  PCIe Lane Width:          x16

  VRAM (Total):          512 MB

  Vendor:          ATI (0x1002)

  Device ID:          0x9440

  Revision ID:          0x0000

  ROM Revision:          113-B7710C-176

  EFI Driver Version:          01.00.318

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Explorer ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Chris, did you have a look at my psd file with GPU checked in PS Prefs?

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Jun 26, 2012

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You PSD is what I was referring to -- it's an example of artifacts in the transparency channel.

The artifacts are already present in that file, so I can't use it to reproduce anything.

I need to know how to get the artifacts to start with.

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LEGEND ,
Jun 26, 2012

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Chris, when I look at the pattern.psd file Eric posted, there are no artifacts.  Not even in the transparency channel.

Honest!

It must be something that's happening to the file when being opened on your particular system.

I did a Layer - Layer Mask - From Transparency, copied the mask, and pasted it as a new layer.  It's pure white.  The histogram says so and two layers of extreme curves adjustments say so.

The artifacts are NOT present in that file!

Edit:  Scratch that.  I went through it again and saw something different.  Eric, did you update the file at the link posted above?

-Noel

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Jun 26, 2012

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It's a 16 bit file, and the errors are small.

Open patterns.psd, Layer -> Layer Mask -> From Transparency, option/alt click on the layer mask to show it, Levels and change the black point to 245, commit the levels adjustment, now repeat the same levels adjustment and you should see the artifacts.

The errors appear to be in the least significant 2 bits of the result.

But resampling solid white should always result in solid white -- so something when wrong before we saw that document.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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13.0.1 Update

I cannot reproduce this problem with the 13.0.1 code and ATI Catalyst 12.8.  I'm wanting to call it fixed in all facets.

Anyone else care to try?

-Noel

Message was edited by: PECourtejoie

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Explorer ,
Sep 01, 2012

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I'm a Mac user, so I am testing 13.0.1 under different circumstances than yours, Noel. I report no change. The suit patterns are still there.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Just to be clear, the patterns you saw were getting generated into the files you were saving.  Have you recreated them from what should be smooth data using only 13.0.1?

-Noel

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Never mind, motivated by your response I went back to trying it again.

I managed to reproduce it with 13.0.1.  I don't know what I missed or did wrong before.

Please scratch what I said in post 81 above.

Apparently the problem still exists.  But now I can create it using simple Bicubic resampling. 

TransparencyInaccuracy.png

-Noel

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Noel Carboni wrote:

Apparently the problem still exists.  But now I can create it using simple Bicubic resampling. 

Noel, closely check CS5.1 again to see that regular Bicubic had the problem, anyway. A specific example is resize 256 x 256 to 400 x 400.

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Engaged ,
Sep 01, 2012

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I see nothing using resampling.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote:

I see nothing using resampling.

Here are example screenshots:

1. The original document is 256 x 256 pixels, 16 bpc, Adobe RGB 1998. The one black layer (there is no Background layer) cannot be distinguished from the black window background.

Screen-shot-2012-09-01-at-22.58.54.png

2. The document is "Bicubic" resampled to 400 x 400 pixels. A network of horizontal and vertical lines where the transparency grid wrongly shows is barely visible.

Screen-shot-2012-09-01-at-22.59.25.png

3. Photoshop displaying screenshot 2 with a region given an exposure enhancement in case anyone's monitor or vision is preventing perception of the lines in screenshot 2.

Screen-shot-2012-09-01-at-23.04.18.png

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Engaged ,
Sep 01, 2012

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OK, I simply used Background. Changing it to a Layer (Layer0) I can reproduce it except Exposure does not enhance the image. No change. But, if you change from 16 bit to 32 bit the lines disappear.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote:

OK, I simply used Background. Changing it to a Layer (Layer0) I can reproduce it ...

Yes, I suspected that you were using Background and that's why I made a point of stating that there was no Background layer in my example. Background never has any transparency and so it will always block the transparency grid (gray and white checkered display by default) from being visible.

... except Exposure does not enhance the image. No change.

My third screenshot showed an exposure increase being applied to the second screenshot. The exposure adjustment was not being applied in the actual document with the resampled layer.

But, if you change from 16 bit to 32 bit the lines disappear.

If I change mode from 16-bit to 32-bit mode, the lines become feinter but they definitely do not completely disappear on my monitor.

.

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Engaged ,
Sep 01, 2012

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I suspect these are artifacts and not real. Passing the eyedropper over the image showed no change from 0,0,0. So I built a grid and set it's values to L=10,a=0,b=0. It looked quite close in values to the grid generated with the upsampling. Again, the eyedropper show no change in the values as you pass over the grid. Of course, the grid doesn't print with the image if it is left on when printing so I would suspect this also may be true of these artifacts.

Inasmuch as image pixel size with which I generally work is way larger than 256 or even 400 px, and inasmuch as I see no evidence of this type of grid on a 50M image at 100%, it seems moot to me. It became of interest when I saw that the effect shows up when the Background is changed to Layer 0, and layer 0 is what happens to the background if you uncheck "Delete Cropped Pixels", of course I am interested.

So, hopefully this won't actually be a problem with real world image sizes, and if it does, I'll flatten everything before final output and save it as a flattened version.

Lawrence

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LEGEND ,
Sep 01, 2012

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There's an explanation for this display problem in the thread. It appears that some GPUs are incorrectly blending the transparency grid with pixels which have a transparency of a tiny fraction of one percent. These pixels really should not have any transparency but tiny transparency errors are arising in bicubic resampling. The transparency is so minuscule that it shouldn't be visibly different to full opacity. The problematic GPUs are erroneously hugely magnifying these minuscule transparencies when calculating the display for your monitor.

The RGB values of pixels in the resampled layer will not reveal anything. A pixel's RGB value is independant of its transparency.

Don't worry about your documents. They will be OK.

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Engaged ,
Sep 01, 2012

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Yes, I saw the explanation, and I wanted to check it out for myself, especially as to whether they make a real world difference especially in the darker values, which tend to more noise problems.

I never take anyone's advice about what may happen to my docs. I'll make every effort to check it out myself. One learns much in doing so!

Thanks for the feedback.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Summarizing, there seem to be two problems:

1.  Some resampling operations are leaving the transparency for a given layer at a value of something less than fully opaque.  A few levels out of 32769.

2.  Some video cards / display drivers are making that (barely) visible.  A few levels out of 256.

It probably all boils down to roundoff error at two different stages, one with the 16 bit math and one with the 8 bit math used to combine things for display.

I should have thought that Photoshop would have best-in-show algorithms internally that don't do this, and in fact it used to be true.  What's amazing to me is that Adobe didn't see fit to fix either of these issues in 13.0.1.

-Noel

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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I don't think Adobe can be held responsible for video drivers making errors

More to the point, these errors contaminate the 16 bit presentations, not 8 nor 32. So it isn't simply changing afterwards,  starting with either 8 or 32 bit excludes the contamination. Further, this action is unidirectional, that is reducing the size does not produce the artifact. But increasing it back to the original does produce it. Also, if the multiplier is a whole number, (2x, 3x, etc) the effect isn't present.

As to large start values in the pixel number. it appears not to be present. But increasing the magnification past 65% does show it up. Example: Start  2000x2000 px. Increase size to 3521 px. Image looks clean. Magnify to 66+% and there is the pattern.

So it is insidious! looking at sharpening artifacts when checking at 100% after a  size increase other than a whole number will show up, and possibly confuse the judgement of, artifacts in shadows.

Proceed to go nuts trying to correct it!

BTW, I still cannot use Exposure or Curves to amplify these artifacts. there is no change; the background remains dark unless I use the gamma slider, at which time the background changes to gray with no artifacts showing. I must be missing a step or two.

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Explorer ,
Sep 02, 2012

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As the OP of this thread, I'd like to know if the gentleman's suit patternings show up in prints.

Has anyone tried?

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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It's a good question and since printer drivers run at 8 bit, probably not. There is a Canon printer that will run at 16 bit. That's the one to try.

But these are phantom images as a result of video card interactions. The video card is not in the path to the printer (AFAIK!)

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote:

I don't think Adobe can be held responsible for video drivers making errors

I agree that Adobe is not responsible for OpenGL errors in a GPU's software.

However, tiny but nevertheless real errors are being generated into the transparency of pixels in the document by Adobe's bicubic resampling code in 16-bit mode. Without these errors in the first place, the transparency grid blending errors in the GPU software would not be in effect. The most important bug(s) to fix are those in the Adobe bicubic resampling code.

More to the point, these errors contaminate the 16 bit presentations, not 8 nor 32.

Not entirely true. As I told you yesterday, the tiny Adobe-generated transparency errors remain in the pixels' transparency when you switch from16-bit to 32-bit mode and the display artefacts are still faintly present in 32-bit mode.

Switching the mode from 16-bit to 8-bit does remove the transparency errors because the errors are in the lowest bit(s) of the 16 bits and the lowest 8 bits are discarded when converting from 16-bit to 8-bit. When these Adobe-generated errors are eliminated, the GPU software produces a correct display. The GPU problem is only apparent when pixel transparency is a very small amount greater than 0; a smaller number than can be represented by 8 bits. You can check that by converting a "corrupted" 16-bit document to 8-bit then to 16-bit again. The display will now be clean because the pixels whose transparency was a minuscule amount greater than 0 now have a transparency of exactly 0.

Further, this action is unidirectional, that is reducing the size does not produce the artifact.

That's incorrect. The bicubic resampling errors happen when upscaling and when downscaling.

As to large start values in the pixel number. it appears not to be present. But increasing the magnification past 65% does show it up. Example: Start  2000x2000 px. Increase size to 3521 px. Image looks clean

No, I disagree. The problem is visible with your specific example.

BTW, I still cannot use Exposure or Curves to amplify these artifacts. there is no change; the background remains dark unless I use the gamma slider, at which time the background changes to gray with no artifacts showing. I must be missing a step or two.

When you said that yesterday also, I replied that I was enhancing the artefacts by increasing the exposure of a screenshot of Photoshop that I had captured when the artefacts were being displayed, and not by increasing the exposure of the resampled layer in the document. To what are you applying an exposure adjustment that doesn't enhance the artefacts?

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Sep 02, 2012

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>> The most important bug(s) to fix are those in the Adobe bicubic resampling code.

You're talking about 1 bit errors in the least significant bit of a 16 bit calculation, which are only visible when extreme adjustments are applied or a display driver bug is involved.  That's not a major problem.  It will be addressed, but there are much more pressing matters ahead of it in the queue.

The big problem here is the GPU issues making those LSB errors visible - that needs to be fixed soon.  I still can't say for sure whether this is an Adobe bug (failing to account for certain GPUs), or a driver bug on certain GPUs.  But we will continue to investigate.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Chris Cox wrote:

>> The most important bug(s) to fix are those in the Adobe bicubic resampling code.

You're talking about 1 bit errors in the least significant bit of a 16 bit calculation, which are only visible when extreme adjustments are applied or a display driver bug is involved.

Yes, I certainly am talking about the 1 bit errors. If these 1 bit errors created by Adobe's bicubic resampling weren't present then the suspected display driver bug would never have a visible result whether that display driver bug exists or not.

It seems that the display corruption doesn't arise unless only the least significant bit of 16 is set in a pixel's transparency.

The Adobe error is the initial error in a chain of errors. Eliminate that initial error and there will be no display problem regardless of the display driver.

---

This is an edited form of a now deleted post.

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Are there any resampling algorithms other than bicubic suitable for resizing that does not show these artifacts? And FAPP, the main problem is that confusion as to true artifacts visible in printing and those visible on the screen interfering with corrective measures. It's no small consideration.

My bad missing the screen shot as the source for Exposure change.Unfortunately, that would be no aid to clarifying the confusion factor in real time.

We disagree on what we see. My assertion concerning the 2k x 2k resample sighting stands for this equipment. It literally snaps into view as the magnification changed from around 65% to beyond 66%.

I'll not bother much with those differences, leaving all this up to Chris and his people.

Bottom line: Dupe the 16 bit file flatten and reduce to 8 bits when doing noise and artifact checking on a given image. I'm going back to certain files and look in the next few days.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote:

Are there any resampling algorithms other than bicubic suitable for resizing that does not show these artifacts

Bilinear and Nearest Neighbor don't have the problem, but you probably won't like Bilinear's inferior results and you almost certainly won't like Nearest Neighbor. Try them, though. You are the one who has to decide what looks acceptable.

And FAPP, the main problem is that confusion as to true artifacts visible in printing and those visible on the screen interfering with corrective measures. It's no small consideration.

Yes, certainly.

We disagree on what we see. My assertion concerning the 2k x 2k resample sighting stands for this equipment. It literally snaps into view as the magnification changed from around 65% to beyond 66%.

If "Cache Levels" is greater than 1 (which it is by default) in Preferences > Performance, the display calculation of 16-bit documents is streamlined to 8 bits when zoom is less than about 65%. Therefore the artefacts will not appear below that zoom level and will suddenly appear when you go over that zoom threshold into 16-bit display calculation.

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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I was thinking of other than PS for resampling, like Fractal Images. But thnks for the heads up about the others in PS.

I just tried the 2k x 2k resampled to 3521 setting Cache to 1 and got the same result. Specifically, no artifacts at 63.26%, artifacts visible at 64.84% and above.

Conventional wisdom anyway is check 100%.  So I checked again at 100% with a 5k x5k file resampled up to 7531. At 100%, it is visible. Cache size not a factor.

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Trouble is, it's not just image size resampling but anything that uses resampling that's affected.  Hence rotating while cropping is implicated in the thread above.

As for whether it's purely a display driver fault, I'm not completely willing to believe Adobe has no fault in this.  Has anyone got a GPU on which the problem doesn't happen?

-Noel

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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.

Repost with proper screenshots (there was a conversion problem)

Hudechrome wrote:

I just tried the 2k x 2k resampled to 3521 setting Cache to 1 and got the same result. Specifically, no artifacts at 63.26%, artifacts visible at 64.84% and above.

Conventional wisdom anyway is check 100%.  So I checked again at 100% with a 5k x5k file resampled up to 7531. At 100%, it is visible. Cache size not a factor.

Cache size is a factor when the zoom is below about 64% here, which entirely accords with how the 16-bit mode display is streamlined to 8-bit calculations below that zoom threshold when Cache Levels is greater than 1. Artefacts popped into the display of Cache Levels 4 only when zoom was 63.77% or greater, but they were always visible with Cache Levels 1, as expected.

Here are screenshots to illustrate.

Screen-shot-2012-09-03-at-00.23.27.png

Screen-shot-2012-09-03-at-00.22.00.png

Screen-shot-2012-09-03-at-00.14.55.png

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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"...but they were always visible with Cache Levels 1, as expected."

What part of "Not here" don't you understand? I am getting different results due to what I don't have a clue, nor do I really care. !00% has no competition. In fact, all tests run using a pixel count from 1024 x1024 down will be at 100% or greater if you use "fit screen" or Ctrl +Alt 0. So I leave my cache at four, run at 100%, the measurement problem resolves, so far as visuals are concerned.

Years ago, I had serious problems with a design I implemented using image mirroring. The file size got great but I didn't watch at 100%. I thought I had a design with burgundy as the central color but either flattened or 100% I had mustard.

You might say that didn't cut the mustard at all!

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Engaged ,
Sep 02, 2012

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I wondered about that as well, Noel. You and I are running Ati cards. I don't know where you have landed with their drivers but I amusing the latest, 12.8

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LEGEND ,
Sep 02, 2012

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Hudechrome wrote:

What part of "Not here" don't you understand?

Look who's talking!

Read my first sentence. I deliberately preceded my results with the word "here" just as you did.

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