Canon C200 Footage - Footage and Waveform Different on Intel iMacs vs M2 Pro Mac Mini

[SLNK-1]

Hi, this is an extension of an issue I posted in a previous discussion.

Since the previous bug was documented, the issue has developed. We have discovered that Canon C200 C-LOG 3 footage in the same project shifts in colour when opened on different Macs. We have three Macs used for post-production in our office (we are a video production company):

1. An Intel iMac from 2019 (running Sequoia 15.3.2 and Premiere Pro 25.2.0 - Build 147)
2. An Intel iMac from 2017 (running Ventura 13.7.4 and Premiere Pro 25.1.0 - Build 73)
3. A 2023 M2Pro Mac Mini (running Ventura 13.7.4 and Premiere Pro 25.1.0 Build 73)

We have created a test project containing one piece of C200 footage. All colour management other than 'Display Color Management' and 'Extended Dynamic Range' is off. The project is located on an edit server; we all opened the same project on each Mac and screenshot our waveform and program monitor (see screenshots).

On both of the iMacs, the footage appears on timeline, displaying an identical waveform. On the Apple M2 Mac Mini, the monitor and waveform displays a more contrasting image.

When exported from each machine, the rendered video appears as it did on the timeline, meaning two exports of the same project with no alterations from an iMac and Mac Mini show different footage colouration.

What this means is projects must be exported on the machine they were graded on to ensure accurate translation of the intended grade and that C200 footage, whether graded or not, does not appear the same on the iMacs as it does on the Mac Mini and vice versa.

In the previous thread referenced above, I also explained that this colour change happened since updating to Premiere version 24.4. The footage appears correctly (as it always has done in years of editing prior) in Premiere version 24.3.0 and below. We have now discovered that the waveform in the latest version of Premiere on the M2 Mac Mini matches the waveform in Premiere 24.3.0 running on an intel iMac. To me, this suggests this isn't an issue with the Mac Mini; rather, there is an issue with Premiere versions 24.4 onwards running on Intel iMacs.

These colour issues are not just isolated to Premiere either; the same issues can be observed in After Effects and in Media Encoder.

We do not have issues with our other cameras (Canon C100 and C300). This is still specifically an issue with the C200 and Premiere Pro versions from 24.4 onwards on our Intel iMacs.

I can supply a copy of the Premiere project if required.

Thanks,
Stuart

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 -  Thanks for submitting your bug report. We need a few more details to try to help with the issue.
Please see, How do I write a bug report?

There has been a lot of color work through the versions of Premiere Pro.  Premiere Pro version 25.2 has released Improved color management.

Can you post screenshots of your Lumetri Panel > Settings.  under Project you may have different Viewer Gamma settings for each mac.

Sorry for the frustration.

[SLNK-1]

Hi there, certainly, find attached three screenshots from each of our machines, cheers.

[SLNK-1]

Steps to Reproduce

1. Open project on an intel iMac, open the sequence and check the scope waveform.
2. Open the same project on an M2 Mac, open the sequence and check the scope waveform.

Expected result: Provided both computers have the same settings in the lumetri panel settings, you'd expect the waveforms to be identical

Actual result: for us, they are not, the C200 footage appears differently.

Here is link to the project, if you require access to footage as per the troubleshooting guide. Everything else is in the first message above.

Thanks,

Stuart

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - Can you try the same version 25.2 on each machine and let us know if you are still seeing differences.

[R Neil Haugen]

I've got a question about your Macs ... do any of them have Reference modes? And if so, is it set to HDTV?

I ask because "standard" Macs don't have Reference modes, and the ColorSync utility applies incorrect display transform gamma of essentially gamma 1.96.

However, Macs with Reference modes set to HDTV, do use the correct display transform of essentially gamma 2.4, like all correct broadcast compliant systems should. And most screens do use that.

Past that, I wonder why you're not trying out the new algorithmic transforms for the Canon log footage ... ?

As in my probably more limited experience with Canon log, they do a pretty great job of the base normalization process. And it works equally well whether going for Rec.709 or HLG/PQ. This is via the auto detect log combined with auto tonemapping options.

And you can even set variances on the tonemapping used.

[SLNK-1]

We've updated all of the machines to Premiere 25.2.1 this morning and the results are still unchanged, unfortunately.

[SLNK-1]

Hi there Neil, could you clarify what exactly a reference mode is? Two of the Macs have been colour calibrated using an i1 Display Pro, so their screens have custom Colour Profiles; however, changing these doesn't affect the waveform in Premiere Pro. If it's something different, I don't believe we are using reference modes?

We have been using the auto tonemapping options on various projects, and I agree that they do help create a nice starting point for the footage. For these tests, we chose to disable it to avoid extra variables. Another issue we've had is that After Effects does not yet support these same auto tonemapping footage conversions as Premiere does, so when tracking and masking footage in After Effects, if we use dynamic links to push footage from PP to AE, the grades we make in Premiere do not translate into AE and vice versa. Other than that, for PP only projects, we have been using the auto tone-mapping to decent effect, but it doesn't solve our footage problems. The colours are still different between the machines even if auto-tonemapping is on and settings are mirrored across our machines.

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - Do you have any aja, canon, or blackmagic drivers/software installed on your systems?  I see that the 2017 and 2019 imac have the same levels, but they are different from the 2023 mac mini.  It's possible that apple has updated gpu drivers in the latest macOS and that is why you are seeing a difference.  

[SLNK-1]

Hi Jamie, 

I did have a version of Canon XF installed on my machine. I've just updated to the latest version of that via the C200 support page. I'm going to suggest we update the C200 firmware as well to cover all bases.

I appreciate that it could be related to a lot of factors, but we've had this problem since July 2024. Just to be sure, I loaded the same C200 footage into Premiere 23.6.7 (Build 1) now on my machine (2019 iMac), checked the waveform, and sure enough it's identical to the 2023 Mac Mini. I've attached two more screenshots, both taken on my 2019 iMac, in two separate versions of premiere using the same C200 clip.

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - Can you send me a sample file you can email a link to jamiec@adobe.com 

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - What happens on the intel imacs if you switch the project renderer to software only?

[SLNK-1]

Hi Jamie, unfortunately, I can't change the renderer in Premiere in the newest version; the option is greyed out. 

In the old version of Prem (23.6.7) I can, however, it doesn't affect the waveform.

[SLNK-1]

Also, I have sent that C200 sample file to you; however, I forgot to set a subject in the email - my bad! I hope you can find it regardless. 

Cheers.

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - Thanks, I have received your file.  I'm asking around and will get back to you soon.

[SLNK-1]

Brilliant, thanks Jamie!

[jamieclarke]

Hi @SLNK-1 - We are still investigating this, but I opened your file in mediainfo and see some strange data in the transfer characteristics that I haven't seen before.  Have you seen this before?

Format                                   : MXF
Format version                           : 1.3
Format profile                           : OP-1a
Format settings                          : Closed / Complete
File size                                : 25.0 MiB
Duration                                 : 5 s 280 ms
Overall bit rate                         : 39.7 Mb/s
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Encoded date                             : 2024-04-16 09:50:45.000
Writing application                      : CANON EOS C200 1.00

Video
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.1
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, Reference frames        : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP                     : M=3, N=12
Format settings, wrapping mode           : Frame
Format settings, Slice count             : 4 slices per frame
Codec ID                                 : 0D01030102106001-0401020201314001
Duration                                 : 5 s 280 ms
Bit rate                                 : 35.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.675
Stream size                              : 22.1 MiB (88%)
Color range                              : Min: 0, Max: 255, Chroma range: 255
colour_range_Original                    : Full
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : 0E15000107000000
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

[SLNK-1]

Hi @jamieclarke, sorry for the delay, I haven't been at my work computer for a few days, so I haven't been able to keep up with the thread. I've opened the footage to read metadata before, however, I'm not sure what 'transfer characteristics' are? Also, what is strange about it? If there is something we can try on our end that might help, we'd definitely like to! Thanks.

Also, I do appreciate the update, no worries!