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Export looks good in H264 but dark in ProRes / DNXHR

Explorer ,
Oct 23, 2022 Oct 23, 2022

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So I have a timeline in Rec 709.

When I export a master to ProRes4444XQ and DNXHR 444 and open the file in VLC its way darker than in the editor. But, if I export to H264 colors in VLC are the same. 

 

Why is that? 

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

LEGEND , Oct 24, 2022 Oct 24, 2022

As discussed off-forum, the problem was within VLC. The user changed settings there, and all is now showing correctly. Though I don't know what settings they changed.

 

A likely issue is having the player set to handle Rec.709 media as "full", which is incorrect. Rec.709 media is 'full' by image dynamic range, but encoded in 'limited' range for historic reasons. It is then displayed, correctly, as full range values on a properly set system.

 

"Regular" Rec.709 is technically encoded as Y-Cb/Cr.

...

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LEGEND ,
Oct 23, 2022 Oct 23, 2022

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Have you changed the monitor settings so your monitor runs "full" range for Rec.709?

 

Neil

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Explorer ,
Oct 23, 2022 Oct 23, 2022

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I think I don't even have that option on my monitor. It's an Acer Nitro VG280K. IPS. 38480x2160. 4ms. 300nit. HDR10. 10bit (8bits + FRC) and I can't seem to find an option regarding Rec.709. Its on "HDR" mode. 

 

I'm so confused on why the H264 looks exactly the same as in the NLE, but ProRes and DNXR don't. 

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LEGEND ,
Oct 24, 2022 Oct 24, 2022

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As discussed off-forum, the problem was within VLC. The user changed settings there, and all is now showing correctly. Though I don't know what settings they changed.

 

A likely issue is having the player set to handle Rec.709 media as "full", which is incorrect. Rec.709 media is 'full' by image dynamic range, but encoded in 'limited' range for historic reasons. It is then displayed, correctly, as full range values on a properly set system.

 

"Regular" Rec.709 is technically encoded as Y-Cb/Cr. The 4:4:4:4 media, like the ProRes4444HQ and DNxHR/444 are (technically" encoded as RGB ... and are supposed to be encoded as 'full' range. And will be shown as such by correctly set systems.

 

But if somewhere between the OS, GPU, or player settings, somehow Rec.709 got set to 'full', then normal Rec.709 is shown as full ... and the 4444/RGB codecs are displayed with crushed blacks and clipped whites.

 

That may have been an issue here.

 

Neil

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Engaged ,
Feb 07, 2023 Feb 07, 2023

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Hi Neil,

we talk about DNxHR 444, a long time a go.

Right is that DNxHR 444 is Y-Cb/Cr!   

All tools correctly interpret this as Y-Cb/Cr legal range, only ADOBE interprets it incorrectly as RGB full range.

444 is not the same as RGB!
444 and RGB have brightness and color information for each pixel,
with RGB as full range and with 444 as legal range.
= is therefore not correct!

 

We now this bug from 2017!

 

Perhaps, this is a reason, that VLC interpret DNxHR 444 wrong.

 

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LEGEND ,
Feb 07, 2023 Feb 07, 2023

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Hey there!

 

One of Adobe's top color people can give chapter and verse of why all 4444 are by 'law' standard supposed to be full. Although Avid says their 4444 can be either ... and apparently, same with the non-alpha 444.

 

I figure that the 'owner' of the format is the arbiter for that format ... so if Avid says it can be either, well ... right?

 

Thee and me are not the powers that be ... sadly!

 

Neil

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Engaged ,
Feb 07, 2023 Feb 07, 2023

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Hey Neil,

I've been hearing from your great, unknown ADOBE color expert for years. If there is a man in real life, where is he when we are at IBC?

If there is someone you don't know, please let us know.

Otherwise we recommend, for example, a visit to the university:

https://www.hs-rm.de/de/fachbereiche/ingenieurwissenschaften/studiengaenge/medientechnik-beng/


This page should also be interesting for the ADOBE nerd:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

 

Have a nice Day!

Greetings

Charles Waldorf

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LEGEND ,
Feb 07, 2023 Feb 07, 2023

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Yes, there is. As noted in the list of folks if you let the "About" screen scroll. Most of the listed folks never appear at the public events though.

 

And past that, I don't know how/why they choose their staffer's schedules at things like NAB. I've been to NAB since 2014, booking things again for this year. We'll see who's there in person again.

 

Neil

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Engaged ,
Feb 08, 2023 Feb 08, 2023

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Dear Neil,

we talked about it in other posts and you talked about *Adobe staff comments*. Sorry, I will never say yes to *staff* statements that "Full range is the new legal range".
There are standards in our industry and you have to stick to them!

If you want to work full-range, which I don't refuse, you have to have a standard in which / with which this can be done.
The way to abuse a legal transmission standard like this is a nogo!

About *Adobe* and color management skills.
Take a DPX (RGB) test pattern, load it in Photoshop,
save it as a Rec709 or sRGB PSD file.
Import this PSD into Premiere
from Premiere with Dynamic Link to AfterEffects
In AE Layer 2 the original DPX file.
Then layer 2 off and you can see the excellent color management by *Adobe*.

*They* wants to do a clean ACES at ADOBE?
How does *they* want to do that when *they* can't even stick to a standard like DNxHR444.

 

Have a nice Day

Charles Waldorf

 

[Moderator note: post edited to keep subject matter foreground, and personages out of it. Keep discussions relating to the subject not people.]

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LEGEND ,
Feb 08, 2023 Feb 08, 2023

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I've never had anyone from Adobe make the statement you put in quotes. They have always been fully aware of the major difference between Full and Legal, and in fact, linked to the standards section that said RGB is "expected" at Full, Y-Cb/Cr (YUV commonly) is "expected" to be sRGB.

 

So the RGB/YUV stuff with DNx is a tough situation for users. Avid .. .the owner of the format ... says it's user choice, while Adobe sticks with a more rigid RGB is full practice, no user choice. I've asked for a user choice instead. Ah well.

 

As to the rest of the current color, I'll stick with a colorist friend's comments after extensive testing with various formats on his system ... roughly, it actually ends up correct, but it's weirdly presented. And because of that, you have to figure out how to get it to work correctly.

 

That's not optimal ...

 

Neil

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