Motion Graphics - Limits & Frustrations when put to actual use.

Enthusiast ,
May 01, 2017 May 01, 2017

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Here are some of the limits we ran into testing for use in an actual post-production workflow.

Presumes the following environment:

- Complex timelines with many Motion Graphics templates and many instances of each template both in one sequence and across multiple sequences

- On-the-fly changes being made a) to the design of the templates, b) to the text and properties in the instances, c) quantity of property controls passed from AE to PPRo

#1: The only way we're able to introduce a MOGRT (Motion Graphics) file into the project is by dragging it into a timeline.  Can't drag to a the project panel, a bin, or even the Essential Graphics-generated "Motion Graphics Templates Media" bin.   Dragging into the timeline is not exactly optimal.  Risky.  Easy to accidentally over-write existing timeline cuts.  This is more of an inconvenience than a deal-breaker.  The following are more problematic

#2: We haven't found a way to update an existing Motion Graphic at the PPro project level.  If we update a template in AE we're forced to re-import/re-introduce the updated version to our PPro project.  It arrives as a new (same-named) template that can't be linked or merged with the prior.  In order to update sequences with the new template, we have to select all related instances and execute a "Replace Clip With..."  That's ok for smaller, simpler projects.  It's a deal-breaker for larger, more complex ones.  Why...

  • In a complex project there's no easy way to quickly and accurately select all the timeline instances relating to one particular template, shy of using dedicated tracks, or some JSX.
  • If there are multiple sequences all sharing multiple instances of Motion Graphics of Templates the prospect of constantly updating all of quickly becomes daunting.
  • It's an inefficient, time-consuming process.

#3: Even after updating Motion Graphics timeline instances, the updated instances don't reflect certain changes made at the AE context, namely additions or changes in property controls.  The only solution to that we've been able to come up with involves over-cutting the new Motion Graphic into the timeline.  That means losing any text entries or property settings.  That takes more time, introduces more risk than #2 above.

Curious to know if we're just over-looking something -- that there is some way to replace Motion Graphics at the project level that includes all style and property changes.  Would love to know we can overcome these limitations.  Otherwise, for our purposes, Motion Graphics are a brilliant, promising new development with great potential but which are self-defeating in a complex, professional post-prod workflow.  And yet that's precisely the environment to which Motion Graphics seem best suited.

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Enthusiast , Apr 18, 2018 Apr 18, 2018
https://forums.adobe.com/people/Roei+Tzoref  wrotePremiopolis  looks like some of our prays have been answered with the latest 12.1 april update of Premiere here's an updated article: Adobe Premiere Pro Help | Using Motion Graphics templates in Premiere Pro
Thanks for the callout Roei Tzoref & jstrawnHighlights of the MOGRT workflow improvement:- The option "Do you want to replace all other instances of this graphic in all sequences with the new template?" is a great leap forward.- Sliders added...

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Enthusiast ,
Jun 11, 2017 Jun 11, 2017

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My impression was that the links were pretty reliable as long as you maintain your relative paths between your Ppro file, your exported MOGRTs and your AE originals.  Is that not the case?

The exported MOGRTs may be your missing link.  By default they want to export to a some system / Adobe centralized folder.  It struck me the better destination is a custom one located with your PPro sources, so that if the project and media files are ever migrated, the MOGRT exports naturally come along for the ride.

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Explorer ,
Jul 11, 2017 Jul 11, 2017

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I'd like to drop a few addendums in here if I may:

It's curious, if not frustrating that a nice clean dialogue box is utilized when a MOGRT is created and brought into Pr, allowing a lot of copy changes in a very short time, just by tabbing through the fields in the edit box. The problem with that is none of the other properties (typeface, size, color) can be adjusted. That said, when a MOGRT is created WITH premiere, I can play with the copy all I want, but the convenience of editing the copy in the dialogue box is gone, meaning I have to double click with the text tool on each field I want to update, which COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the Essential Graphics panel in the first place since everything in that dialogue is available in the Effects panel. Why?

This may be more of a bug, but I'd also like to add that if you try to edit a text field on top of a previously added Essential Graphics template, you must move the layer out from under it. The cursor flashes from the text layer to the MOGRT layer and back again, making any workflow optimizations pretty much null and void.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 17, 2017 Jul 17, 2017

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ck_jedi  wrote

I'd like to drop a few addendums in here if I may:

It's curious, if not frustrating that a nice clean dialogue box is utilized when a MOGRT is created and brought into Pr, allowing a lot of copy changes in a very short time, just by tabbing through the fields in the edit box. The problem with that is none of the other properties (typeface, size, color) can be adjusted. That said, when a MOGRT is created WITH premiere, I can play with the copy all I want, but the convenience of editing the copy in the dialogue box is gone, meaning I have to double click with the text tool on each field I want to update, which COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the Essential Graphics panel in the first place since everything in that dialogue is available in the Effects panel. Why?

This may be more of a bug, but I'd also like to add that if you try to edit a text field on top of a previously added Essential Graphics template, you must move the layer out from under it. The cursor flashes from the text layer to the MOGRT layer and back again, making any workflow optimizations pretty much null and void.

It's not a bug, though I can see why it may seem like one.

AE mogrts allow users to set up editable parameters and then adjust their appearance using things like text fields, sliders and checkboxes in PrPro's EG panel. This makes tweaking them fun and easy in Pr but it means that you can only change the parameters that were made editable in AE. To change other things, you'd need to open the original comp in AE, edit it there, then re-export as MOGRT and bring it into Pr again.

PR mogrts allow you to export the whole Graphic in one container and then bring it into any other project/sequence with all Layers, Effects, Keyframes and Appearance parameters intact just as they would be if you had just made that Graphic from scratch. This makes the content more portable and flexible, but as you have seen, it also means that you need to edit the resulting Graphic the same as you would any other Graphic in Pr.

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Explorer ,
Jul 17, 2017 Jul 17, 2017

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I think you may have missed my point. I wouldn't expect every little bit of minutia to come over from AE into the PrPro panels, but why wouldn't PrPro make its own source text one of the editable parameters? If a MOGRT file contains the same formatting of editable parameters, regardless of whether it was made with Premiere or After Effects, what then is preventing text fields created with Premiere from being editable parameters inside the Essential Graphics panel OF Premiere? That's like being able to order a hamburger with onions over the phone, but not having the onions option when actually visiting the restaurant.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I'm feeling a little hindered. The potential of the new panel is great, but I'm forced to choose my path based on certain limitations. If I want the robust animation options achieved by using AE, the text's look and feel (font, color, size, style, kerning, etc...) must be put into lockdown having only opacity and source text as editable parameters. If I want the flexibility to edit any of those other parameters, I lose the immense convenience of changing the source text in the Essential Graphics panel which, as I said before, kinda defeats the purpose of having the panel.

With regard to the bug comment, that was specific to adding text on a video layer above a layer with Essential Graphics on it. Try it. Drop an EG template onto V1. Then add text to V2 and try clicking in to edit it. You can't. It selects V1, then V2, then back to V1. You have to shift the EG layer out from under the new text layer in order to edit the text.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 17, 2017 Jul 17, 2017

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ck_jedi  wrote

I think you may have missed my point.

I was just responding to the part in your first post where you asked, "Why?". My goal here is to explain why/how things currently work in more detail, and then help people find workarounds whenever I can. I was not trying to dispute the validity of your frustrations. If you can, please file a feature request for any changes you would like to see. It helps.

As for this question: "what then is preventing text fields created with Premiere from being editable parameters inside the Essential Graphics panel OF Premiere?"

Text editing within the EGP is something that had to be cut from Graphics in 2017.1. The reasons are too much to explain, but basically there were other features that we had to be sure to get done first, like the appearance controls and export. Frankly, it's not something we have heard as many complaints about as I had expected. Apparently, many people seem to prefer editing their text in the Monitor instead of in a field off to the side. So if you feel like it's a really important thing to have, this is where additional feature requests can really help prioritize things in the future.

As for the text edit bug you mentioned... What did you mean by "above a layer with Essential Graphics on it"?

There is a problem where you cannot add or edit a graphic Text layer which happened to lie over an AE mogrt in the timeline. Is that what you meant?

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Explorer ,
Jul 17, 2017 Jul 17, 2017

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jstrawn  wrote

As for the text edit bug you mentioned... What did you mean by "above a layer with Essential Graphics on it"?

There is a problem where you cannot add or edit a graphic Text layer which happened to lie over an AE mogrt in the timeline. Is that what you meant?

Yes, I believe that's the same. I'm able to add Text layers onto new layers in the Pr sequence, but I can't edit their text unless I move them away from layer below it that contain AE mogrt clips. I tried hiding and locking the AE layer, but neither made a difference.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 17, 2017 Jul 17, 2017

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ck_jedi  wrote

Yes, I believe that's the same. I'm able to add Text layers onto new layers in the Pr sequence, but I can't edit their text unless I move them away from layer below it that contain AE mogrt clips. I tried hiding and locking the AE layer, but neither made a difference.

Ok thanks. There are a couple of things going on to help make sure people don't create a new Graphic + Text layer inadvertently by trying to edit an AE mogrt's text within the Program Mon. But in the case where the graphic lies on top and is selected, if you still cannot add or edit text within it, then that is a known problem which we can fix. For now, I think you already discovered the best workaround... move either the Graphic or the AE media off to the side, make changes to the Graphic, then move things back. I know that's not ideal, but it should get people unblocked for now.

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Explorer ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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I too have encountered this issue of not being able to add text directly on top of a MOGRT file.What I have found as a workaround, if you haven't found this out already, is to create a legacy title that CAN be edited while above the MOGRT file. To me, the issue with creating a title by clicking to some other place in the timeline is that I want to be able to format, position and modify the text based on what is below it. Doing it the above way makes it almost impossible.

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Adobe Employee ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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We've been listening! This as-designed behavior will be changing with the next release of PrPro.

You still won't be able to add a new Graphic + Text Layer using the Type Tool over an ae-mogrt (or aegraphic, from a mogrt*) in the Timeline. This was done because almost all focus users who see "ae-mogrt" text in their Program Mon try to click on it with the type tool to edit it. So we select the aegraphic in the Timeline instead of adding a new text layer. This way, the user is exposing that aegraphic's parameters in the EGP > Edit tab, where they can edit Text and other things.

In this next release, you WILL be able to use the type tool to select and Edit a Graphic's (prgraphic) Text if it lies over an aegraphic. You will also be able to add new text with the Type tool as long as there is an existing Graphic selected over an aegraphic. Finally, you can always add a new Graphic + Text Layer using the New Layer > Text command from within the EGP or main Graphics menu.

*Details about "mogrt":

At the risk of being a stickler, I'd like to demystify some common misconceptions I see online and elsewhere. ".mogrt" files (short for Motion Graphics Templates) are just container files, Exported from one app (Pr or Ae) and applied into Pr. So there are different types of mogrts, which behave quite differently in Pr, specifically:

  • ae-mogrt - If you Export as MOGRT from Ae and apply that in Pr, then what you end up with in the timeline is what I referred to above as an aegraphic, also known as an ae-mogrt. It's no longer an actual .mogrt file at that point, but it is still a Template, so "ae-mogrt" is an accurate description in that sense. Whatever we call it, Ae mogrts can only be edited in a special sort of interface in Pr's Essential Graphics Panel (EGP) which contains editable fields, sliders and other parameters as authored over on the AE side using their EGP.
  • pr-mogrt - If you Export as MOGRT from Pr and apply that in Pr, you end up with a Graphic in the timeline. We could also call this a prgraphic or a pr-mogrt for the same reasons noted above. Whatever we call it, the Graphic you get when applying a Pr-mogrt into Pr is filly editable. It contains all layers just like they were before you Exported as MOGRT, including all media, effects, keyframes and EGP parameters.

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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Thanks jstrawn

Exciting to hear you're building on this.

Here's what's transpired on our end since first posting this.

Goal here is to articulate what worked, what didn't, what's possible, and how it might be improved going forward.

We went with Live Text Templates over Motion Graphics Template and were able to develop some really powerful workflows because of it.

Here's the system we built

  • A list of Intro Titles and Interviewee guest names hosted in a databases accessible via web.  This allows the people responsible for spelling (producers, APs, and assistants) to directly create, edit, review and revise all texted graphics.  Editor oversees but never has to type up text.
  • Those text entries feed a few AE Comps that serve as graphic text templates.  We do not generate 1 comp per texted graphic, so we have a very clean AE project.  It grows to accommodate the number of templates but not to accommodate the number episodes or named guests.
  • The editor is responsible only for placing the LTT instances and entering an single reference number which automatically draws in all the necessary text and visuals.
  • This architecture accommodates a production environment in which the AE comps are in a constant state of evolution -- because terms of the design evolve as the trajectory of the season becomes more clear, because producers change their minds, and because there are inevitable typo discoveries that need updating and integration at the last breathtaking second.  So we're constantly seeing text updates.
  • With Live Text Templates we're able to make design changes to the templates ("change that font", "make it bigger", "move it left a scutch", "Not orange, I said periwinkle!") and have them ripple out to all edited sequences.
  • We're able not only to pass parameters to the editor for limited, targeted custom control (e.g. move a line of text left or right, control font family, font size -- just about anything) via text entries but also add and remove those parameters at any point in the edit schedule.  Not so easy with MOGRTs.
  • Changes to text entries and template design are instant.  Change and save on the AE side updates all sequences on the PPro side, involves no editor time.

Why we didn't use MOGRTs

  • Change to the AE Comp templates are not easily integrated into the PPro side.  It requires a lot of of steps:
    • MOGRTs:
      1. Make the change in AE
      2. AE export via Essential Graphics
      3. PPro Import via Essential Graphics
      4. PPro drag to timeline to create bin instance
      5. PPro remove from timeline
      6. PPro replace all old MOGRT timeline instances with new MOGRT bin instance...
    • LTTs by contrast:
      1. Make change in AE

      2. Hit save.

  • Properties added to or removed from MOGRTs on the AE side don't transfer easily to PPro, whereas properties (more accurately non-displaying text layers used by expressions to control properties) can be added to/removed from LTTs at any time and, again, integrated as quickly and easily as you can hit save.
  • Each MOGRT instance in a PPro timeline is an independent item.  LTT instances are dependent on a bin item.  Change the LTT bin instance properties to ripple out to all timeline instances.  Originally we were excited about the MOGRT approach, but in practice the LTT approach has proven to be more efficient and manageable.

What we'd love to see in LTTs

  1. An ability to control which AE text layers pass to PPro.  MOGRTs give this kind of control via Essential Graphics, which is great, but the downsides of going with MOGRTs outweighed the benefits of going with LTTs.  In pre-MOGRT, pre Essential Graphics AE this could be controlled by (I forgot) hiding? or locking? a layer.  Would be great to have that back.
  2. Sliders.  MOGRTs' ability to do sliders is truly brilliant.

Or perhaps all that this is really saying is that MOGRTs would be a lot more viable for us if changes we make to our AE template comps could pass to PPro with the  ease and speed of LTTs.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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That's how it would make sense. In our database programming we instantiate an object (think MOGRT) and we have all the properties available to us (save for ones marked 'hidden'). If the base class or MOGRT is changed, all instances inherit the change. However, if you've change a property at the instance, (like say a person's name in a lower-third), then that property at the instance overrides the main object. Same would happen if at the instance you changed a blue line to red. The blue line at the instance overrides the one just for that instance. However you could make a subclass (or another master MOGURT) from the main object and give that a blue line, and then all instances of that would inherit the blue line and if you used the original (MOGURT) as an instance it would still have the red line.

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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MyerPj  wrote

That's how it would make sense. In our database programming we instantiate an object (think MOGRT) and we have all the properties available to us (save for ones marked 'hidden'). If the base class or MOGRT is changed, all instances inherit the change. However, if you've change a property at the instance, (like say a person's name in a lower-third), then that property at the instance overrides the main object. Same would happen if at the instance you changed a blue line to red. The blue line at the instance overrides the one just for that instance. However you could make a subclass (or another master MOGURT) from the main object and give that a blue line, and then all instances of that would inherit the blue line and if you used the original (MOGURT) as an instance it would still have the red line.

If I'm following correctly, the idea is to make available all properties and hide those you don't want passed, but at least they're available to be passed later if you change your mind.  Did I get that correct?

If so, I would imagine a couple of potential issues:

1 - It presumes a relatively limited number of properties, a relatively simple AE Comp.  Otherwise, if your comps are complex, you're looking at pre-enabling an unmanageable number of properties.

2 - We sometimes add and subtract layers from/to the AE Template.  There would be no way to pre-enable for that.

3 - The farther we get into a show, the more we're looking at dynamic inter-related properties controlled via expressions.  So, for instance we might start with a texted graphic that presumes one line for a name, one line for a title, and then later some producer waltzes into the edit bay and decide the whole show henceforth will be 4 lines: name, title, some personal stats, current score.  At that point we're adding the two lines, each potentially with its own movement, plus a background that's growing horizontally and vertically to accommodate the size of the given graphic.   With LTT we can do things like that.  With MOGRTs it's too unwieldy.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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Hi Premiopolis,

Don't mistake me for an expert on this!  But I am an expert database programmer and I think the Adobe guys would get what I'm saying. I don't think there would be a need to expose all properties, but in the inheritance I was explaining. If you add the two lines, then all the instances of that graphic would inherit two lines and they would be immediately available in all. Of course if say the original two lines were fairly low on the screen, then the new lines (assuming under for now) would be as the original and thus mabye too low, and you'd probably have to visit each instance and adjust the screen position.

Then again! If you hadn't adjusted the position (using the default / as you created it) location on the screen, then those new instances would inherit the new location (assuming you moved it up a bit) and you may be good to go!

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Adobe Employee ,
Sep 28, 2017 Sep 28, 2017

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We have a lot of Graphics and other enhancements coming soon, so stay tuned to the blogs and other announcement channels.

For much of what you do you, it sounds like you might find Pr-mogrts especially useful to complement, if not substitute, the ones you're building in Ae. The new Responsive Design features will give you a lot more Template-power in PrPro and you will have a major advantage in that Pr-mogrts become fully editable Graphics when applied to a sequence. You also have a Master Styles feature in Pr to let you quickly ripple design changes to many Graphics at once without affecting the textual content of each individual layer.

Of course, we know Ae is A LOT more powerful for complex Motion Graphics, and you will no doubt want to continue to export MOGRTs from AE. Unfortunately, unlike LTT's, they still don't have the ability to be edited for design in one source comp and rippled out to all sequence instances without affecting specific text strings. Your feedback, and real-world use cases are an excellent example of why that's needed. So I urge you, if possible, to post that over in the Ae forum(s) as well. I'll also do my best to convey it internally. That was the best part about LTT's to me too.

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Enthusiast ,
Sep 29, 2017 Sep 29, 2017

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jstrawn

Thanks for the link and preview.  Looking forward to the latest features.

Will post over in AE as well...

Trying here to hone in on what precise tweaks would make the difference:

For AE to PPro MOGRTs workflow:

Exporting on the AE side so as to replace an existing MOGRT on the PPro side automatically updates the associated PPro bin item and consequently all dependent timeline instances.  This would eliminate

    1) the need to re-import on the PPro side

    2) the need to drag ever update to a timeline to create a bin item

    3) the need to replace timeline instances.

At the same time it would preserve what's superior about Ae-to-PPro MOGRTs (sliders, control over which AE properties do/do not pass to PPro)

To some extent it would seem a natural.  Considering typically PPro bin items can be re-linked from one media source to another, it seems inconsistent that a PPro-side MOGRT-generated bin item can't be linked to a newly-updated AE-exported MOGRT and inherit whatever updated changes are contained within.  It's out of character with the normal logic of Adobe.

At the OS level there are .aegraphic and .mogrt files to support the whole MOGRT workflow but they must be referenced and mediated exclusively through the Essential Graphics panel whose Browser Mode feels like a hybrid of a Bin panel and the Media Browser panel.  In fact, would it not make more sense to let the Media Browser and Bin Panels handle the whole MOGRT workflow?

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Engaged ,
Nov 28, 2017 Nov 28, 2017

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THANK YOU for this incredible thread.
I share all of the same issues with, and hopes for, with this emerging Adobe Product.

I am in the process of setting up new packaging elements for our facility to roll out, and I'm just in the process of deciding how best to do that. I'm leaning towards going with Live Text over Essential Graphics, for all the reasons that Premiopolis​ outlined above.

I tried yesterday to force a replace of the AE file embedded within the compressed wrapper file format ( by unpacking it, opeining it in AE, making changes, and then rezipping the parent directory and renaming the file extension to match, with no luck. Premiere could recognize it, but would hang on an AE import comp selection process.

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Engaged ,
Nov 28, 2017 Nov 28, 2017

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(sorry- hit reply by accident!)

Without the ability to administer the graphics packaging of our shows, facilitating multiple editors and producers etc, It's just too much of a headache/heartbreak to get cornered by Essential Graphics- as far as AE use is concerned.

I appreciated Premiopolis's comment about the internal logic of premiere, and how having to 'instal' the .mogrt files, goes against that. I think experienced editors and Post Professionals would prefer that the EG Graphic elements be treated the same as every other kind of footage / dynamic link asset, that can be replaced on the directory level if needed (and updated automatically), or manually relinked to an updated / alternative asset.

I was inspired by Premiopolis's description of the workflow they have (with Custom Database, and scripting), as the facility I work at does not have the resources to facilitate that.


A simpler, and I think broadly representative workflow, familiar to every professional editor I know is the relink/replace footage function. Weather this is with Proxies of original media, Newly Purchased .wav file versions of trial MP3 Music, or simply reconnecting media from local to networked sources- this is the backend of every editors tool box, from the beginning of NLEs.

A cheap and cheerful solution we have at our facility is to keep the name and duration of our default closing stinger animation the same, so that when it gets updated and we rename and hide/archive older versions in an adjacent directory, the newly approved animation automatically  gets swapped into ever timeline, in every project that we have used it. I'm talking years worth of projects.
This simple trick, is my only superpower in keeping this facility humming, and taking it away is tough to swallow- frankly a deal breaker.

jstrawn​ I really appreciate your voice in this thread! I understand that it must be difficult when rolling out a visionary new product one release at a time... One comment I would make in response to your repeated reminders to us of the new and dynamic tools within the Essential Graphics Premiere-Only toolset:
Current Adobe based Motion Graphics Professionals already have deep familiarity with AE, which offers unparalleled features and controls natively, and is deeply expandable via expressions, AND further still with purchasable plugins, and templates.
We are deeply invested, on multiple fronts.  When we see integration of AE and Premiere evolving, as it is now, we get REALLY EXCITED. So it is greatly disappointing to be directed to check out the Premiere only options (which look great, and I plan on figuring out sometime, but there are so many things in my AE tool box that I can't do in a Premiere Only Essential Graphics workflow).

I am super stoked about this evolving interaction between AE+Premiere, and have been from the very beginning .

Thanks so much for everyone's time, and especially Premiopolis for starting this detailed thread, and the tone with which you have communicated so much so well

PS I REALLY want to know more about the Database & Scripting workflow you mentioned!

David

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 28, 2017 Nov 28, 2017

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Excellent thoughts, David.

I noted your comments about Ae ... in five years of video/post, I've worked heavily with PrPro and SpeedGrade, some with Audition, and the complicated Ae only when I had to. I haven't done a lot of graphics with my work, mainly simple things.

But ... the EGP, and what that is allowing ... have pulled me into seeing what can be done through Ae and oh my FREAKING GOSH! ... the text manipulation effects and tools there are stunning, and when combined with the EGP, well ... I'm learning Ae as fast as I can.

That's just too much cool to ignore.

That said ... there are issues with the use of mogrts in projects, as you mentioned. The envisioned ways of using them have their spiffiness, but within a general post-house I can see (from my small one-man shop workflow!) some huge headaches. When we are all used to the combination of project panel/binned assets & Libraries, having the EGP stuff in its own separate structure seems awkward. I know "it's different" ... but still, trying to re-invent the entire post-house production process is a bit of a steep climb.

I'm hoping we can help the team get this sorted soonest ... the possibilities of the EGP as envisioned are rather wild. Current implementation is either way cool or ... um ... huh? ... so a mix of adding in capabilities like time-controlled scrolls and at the same time, allowing users to work with the assets they create as they are used to are both needed.

And I love that James has been very helpful and good at listening on this forum. Along with many useful and thoughtful comments by so many users.

Neil

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Adobe Employee ,
Nov 29, 2017 Nov 29, 2017

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SquareEyz  wrote

jstrawn  I really appreciate your voice in this thread! I understand that it must be difficult when rolling out a visionary new product one release at a time... One comment I would make in response to your repeated reminders to us of the new and dynamic tools within the Essential Graphics Premiere-Only toolset:
Current Adobe based Motion Graphics Professionals already have deep familiarity with AE, which offers unparalleled features and controls natively, and is deeply expandable via expressions, AND further still with purchasable plugins, and templates.
We are deeply invested, on multiple fronts.  When we see integration of AE and Premiere evolving, as it is now, we get REALLY EXCITED. So it is greatly disappointing to be directed to check out the Premiere only options (which look great, and I plan on figuring out sometime, but there are so many things in my AE tool box that I can't do in a Premiere Only Essential Graphics workflow).

You're welcome and thank you for your passion.

We really understand the power of Ae and certainly want to empower users to work in there along with Pr. That's why we are doing all of this Graphics and mogrt work in the first place... to bring the two apps closer together and expand what you can do with them as one powerful toolset. We also fully understand users' needs to apply a mogrt in Pr, make design changes in Ae and then ripple those back to Pr without having to re-apply the mogrt or redo your EGP changes. So I'm not sure what else I can possibly say about it. Everything takes time and I really cannot over-promise anything. In the meantime, there are some things already possible using Graphics in Pr that aren't possible with Ae mogrts. For example, Master text Styles. That won't fix all the feature needs you have and replace what you miss about LTT's, it's just something good to know about

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Engaged ,
Nov 29, 2017 Nov 29, 2017

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jstrawn

Keep up the good work! very excited, as I'm guessing you can tell, for the evolution of these incredible tools

@ R Neil H- thanks! I might recommend the free install of Mister Horse's "Animation Composer" for some really easy, and lovely looking drag and drop animation presets. This workflow lets you get around keyframing for simple in/out movements, which allows for a simpler user experience-  where making global changes to position of layers, in the midst of animation is a cinch Anyway, could get you going pretty quickly.

Best,

D

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Nov 29, 2017 Nov 29, 2017

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Thanks for the tip, D ... I'll look it up.

Neil

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Enthusiast ,
Jun 15, 2018 Jun 15, 2018

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jstrawn  wrote

We really understand the power of Ae and certainly want to empower users to work in there along with Pr. That's why we are doing all of this Graphics and mogrt work in the first place... to bring the two apps closer together and expand what you can do with them as one powerful toolset. We also fully understand users' needs to apply a mogrt in Pr, make design changes in Ae and then ripple those back to Pr without having to re-apply the mogrt or redo your EGP changes. So I'm not sure what else I can possibly say about it. Everything takes time and I really cannot over-promise anything. In the meantime, there are some things already possible using Graphics in Pr that aren't possible with Ae mogrts. For example, Master text Styles. That won't fix all the feature needs you have and replace what you miss about LTT's, it's just something good to know about

RE: "That's why we are doing all of this Graphics and mogrt work in the first place"

And it's truly brilliant.

And that's precisely the case for me! I do not work in a team. I produce my own videos. I have no need for the team-based features. I DO have need for a simple workflow. The fact that Adobe has strengthened the team concept and removed the ease-of-use for the personal concept is dictatorial... Both avenues should be strengthened so that all of us who rely on these products can be happy when upgrades come out.

By 'personal' are you saying the Live Text Template was dropped to make way for MOGRTs?  If so, you're in luck: LTTs alive and well.  MOGRTs are an additional option, not a replacement.  If I'm misunderstanding your, LMK.

The 'vision' of using Mogrts is based more on the concept of using them/grouping & such through Libraries rather than the Project panel itself. Which for many purposes is an awesome way of doing things. You can be providing Mogrts to a group, update the main logo, and quickly update the version available to all editors through the shared Library so everyone now has the new logo ... and does NOT have the old one.

That's slick. And of course, you can't do that if people have the graphics in folders on their own machine. Without going into every machine to manually replace and delete.

But it's not the perfect working setup to flow for everyone ... and yea, there's times it's handy to just have them in the project's assets in a bin.

I was thinking about the whole LTT v MOGRT thing (in the car of course, because what else do you do in traffic besides think about MOGRTs): On the one hand there's the cool new Motion Graphics Panel.  On the other hand it feels redundant: another kind-of-a sort-of-an OS.  Like the Project Panel, or the Media Browser Panel -- each one of these is an OS interface.  It may be dedicated to Motion Graphics Panel helping manage a the cryptic and disparate places MOGRT files a located, but it's still anther another OS interface.

With that notion in mind, what makes the LTTs more appealing is that they operating within the existing OS: they are on a hard drive (i.e. they are an AE file), in a location designated by the user, and integrate organically with the existing PPro OS-management Panels.

So that's today's thought about MOGRTs.  Next thought... Yogurt.

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Explorer ,
Jun 16, 2018 Jun 16, 2018

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By "personal" I simply mean the ability to track all project assets in one local place, the Project Panel, instead of having to track some of them (MOGRTs) through the online Libraries. And even the latter is not true now, because if I drop a MOGRT from my Library into a PR timeline, the only two ways I now even know that it is in my project at all are either to upgrade that clip to a Master (in which case it will show up in my Project Panel) or manually scan back and forth, back and forth, back and forth through my timeline to see what's there.

For example, let's say I create ten caption clips that I want to show up in various points in my PR timeline for a video of my choir singing a song. It used to be that I could create one using the old captions tool, and I could set the text elements how and where I wanted them to appear--such as above the heads of the choir, or below the stage--and it would show up in my Project Panel, and I could give it a name, such as Caption 1 - Intro. I could then copy that object to other text objects, in the Project Panel, keeping the exact text positioning across the board (above the choir, below the stage, etc.), and just change the text in each object and rename them (Caption 2 - Song Start, Caption 3 - Chorus, etc.). I could then drop those objects into my timeline where they needed to go. And if I was concerned that I had forgotten to create a particular caption, all I had to do was look at my Project Panel, because all of my assets in the project were very nicely listed there.

Now, I have to create these things as MOGRTs, and after I drop them into my timeline (which I now have to do first), if I want them to show up in my Project Panel, I have to upgrade them to Master Graphics. And I could very easily forget to do that, in which case I have to manually scan my entire timeline JUST to see what I actually have in there.

The basic point is, I want to keep my project assets organized and easily see a list of what my project has in it at any given time. I used to be able to do that easily. Now it is far more difficult.

Also, there is a lot of talk here about integrating AE with PR and that part of the reason Adobe has changed things up is to accommodate that. I tried what I would consider a simple task: Replace a PR video timeline clip with an AE element that applies a Remove Grain effect to the video, to make it look smoother. When I do that and then attempt to simply run the timeline in PR, the program monitor comes to a crashing halt, even though I have an i7-6900 (8 cores with hyperthreading = 16), 64G RAM, and nVidia GTX1080 (8G), which should be way more than enough power to handle such things. So if Adobe has opted to change what was an ideal workflow for me in order to accommodate a program-blending feature that even with all that awesome power doesn't even work, I'm not impressed...

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Enthusiast ,
Jun 16, 2018 Jun 16, 2018

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re MHP777123​: integrating AE with PR and that part of the reason Adobe has changed things up is to accommodate that. I tried what I would consider a simple task: Replace a PR video timeline clip with an AE element that applies a Remove Grain effect to the video

So first, probably better to separate the Remove Grain issue.  That's its own world of misery and deserves a separate post under the header: "Which circle of Dante's Inferno does this belong to?"  We had a client that insisted we remove grain, going as far as to have us try out a variety of different plug ins.  It was an unpleasant experience no matter how we approached it -- prepping in AE for real-time use in PPro being the worst, followed closely by every other approach.  I would have preferred retroactively firing the camera person that let fly the grain in the first place, but there's no Adobe plug-in for that.

re MHP777123​: By "personal" I simply mean the ability to track all project assets in one local place, the Project Panel, instead of having to track some of them (MOGRTs) through the online Libraries. And even the latter is not true now, because if I drop a MOGRT from my Library into a PR timeline, the only two ways I now even know that it is in my project at all are either to upgrade that clip to a Master (in which case it will show up in my Project Panel) or manually scan back and forth, back and forth, back and forth through my timeline to see what's there.

I think your experience here nails what I, too, find troubling about the MOGRT workflow.  It's an anomaly in the media asset management scheme of an Adobe-based workflow.

re  MHP777123let's say I create ten caption clips that I want to show up in various points in my PR timeline for a video of my choir singing a song.

Here is where maybe you're in luck.  Let's say you go with an LTT (a Live Text Template) approach to this as opposed to a MOGRT.  Think of an LTT as a jargony way of saying 'import an AE Comp directly into PPro' as opposed to sending it, Star Trek transporter room style, through the two Essential Graphics panels AE and PPro-side.  (I'm assuming in your case you're generating the MOGRT entirely on the PPro side?)  Either way -- AE-to-PPro MOGRT or PPRo-generated MOGRT -- swipe them both off the table for now.

For your captions example generate a single Comp in AE, styled however you want, representing your template version of your caption.  Name it so you'll be able to recognize it over in PPro when you go to import.  Once you're ready -- or even before it's ready -- import that Comp directly into PPro.  It'll show up in your Project Panel like any other asset.  Load it into your source monitor, then open the Effect Controls Panel.  There you have locate the somewhat hidden feature that allows you to change the LTT text content: Look in the header of the Effect Controls Panel, find the part that is highlighted as blue text, look to the left of that and find its white text counterpart with the word "Master * " (+ name of source clip), and click to select.  At that point you should see the field(s) allowing you to change the LTT text content.  Note to Adobe: there is something counter-intuitive about this aspect of the UI.  It would seem a UX re-think could help a lot.  But just having it there at all -- that's the big breakthrough.

You can access the same text controls from the timeline by selecting an LTT clip and going to the Effect Controls Panel.

Now, for the rest of your captions, you don't have to keep importing the same Comp from AE.  Instead, duplicate that first LTT as many times as you want caption instances and name each one according to your project management logic.  Important: duplicate the Bin Instance of the Comp, not the Timeline Instance.  (Duplicate LTT Timeline instances are clones of each other.  Duplicate MOGRT Timeline instances are independent of one another.  Big difference)  From there, change the text content of each LTT instance -- very fast caption creation.

Also know: if you re-style the AE-side Comp (color, placement, size, animation, anything AE) the consequences will immediately ripple to all of your PPro side LTT instances.

I haven't tried LTTs in a multi-editor shared environment, but my impression is that even there it will work and be superior to the MOGRT architecture.  Looking forward to testing that.

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Enthusiast ,
Dec 01, 2017 Dec 01, 2017

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SquareEyz  wrote

(sorry- hit reply by accident!)

Without the ability to administer the graphics packaging of our shows, facilitating multiple editors and producers etc, It's just too much of a headache/heartbreak to get cornered by Essential Graphics- as far as AE use is concerned.

I appreciated Premiopolis 's comment about the internal logic of premiere, and how having to 'instal' the .mogrt files, goes against that. I think experienced editors and Post Professionals would prefer that the EG Graphic elements be treated the same as every other kind of footage / dynamic link asset, that can be replaced on the directory level if needed (and updated automatically), or manually relinked to an updated / alternative asset.

I was inspired by Premiopolis 's description of the workflow they have (with Custom Database, and scripting), as the facility I work at does not have the resources to facilitate that.

...

I am super stoked about this evolving interaction between AE+Premiere, and have been from the very beginning .

Thanks so much for everyone's time, and especially Premiopolis  for starting this detailed thread, and the tone with which you have communicated so much so well

PS I REALLY want to know more about the Database & Scripting workflow you mentioned!

David

Thanks David / SquareEyz for your replies, and moreover adding your name and enthusiasm to these developments.  For all the feedback on this, were making extensive use of LTTs on multiple projects, each in very different ways.  One is PPro-based, another Avid, and in both cases we're making use of AE and PPro to turn hour-long error-prone texted graphics sessions into 5-minute edits, adjusted from anywhere -- on location or remotely.  The whole thing is a brilliant move on Adobe's part, and has huge potential to transform post in so many ways.  Really hoping they continue to develop this.

Regarding how we're making use of databasing:

Short answer: in many ways

Long answer: I'll wear out my fingers

Relevant answer (hopefully): AE expressions are JS, so they work with JSON.  The workflow is to use the database for entry, control, organization and structure, which then exports a JSON data for use in AE.

A database effectively serves as a dashboard for controlling the text, say names and titles of cast and crew for close credits, names & titles for lower 3rds or stats for, say game shows or sports.  In some more elaborate contexts we even control colors and in some cases even the selection of media assets, all in ways that can be leveraged by AE expressions.

The data moves to AE in a variety of ways, either by an Adobe HTML Custom Extension (prettiest), or some ugly-looking command line or cUrl calls if we're in a rush -- bottom line: moving data from database to JSON data stored in AE.

The AE comps typically import to PPro as LTTs (Live Text Templates) where editors control some minimum number of parameters.  When it's LTTs the only control editors have are alpha-numeric entries.  MOGRTs offer more sophisticated UI elements, like sliders and (actually I think that's it at this point), but the cost of using MOGRTs is their lack of flexibility.  We take the hit and go with LTTs and deal with the alpha-numeric consequences.

I hope that's helpful.

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