When the necessary new tool for developing material from the camera appears on the color page without losing information in details. Without LUTs. Straight from the camera. So that there is 100% detail without distortion of the color space. This tool is needed right now. For example, the name Convert the color with the camera profile settings and boom the purest quality of the development frame in Premiere.
Copy link to clipboard
I think what you're asking for is essentially tonemapping? Or CSTs, color space transforms, for each camera that a user selects? I'm not sure from your comment.
Everything is clear Neil. This is not tone mapping in any way.
It doesn't come close to the tool you called CSTs. It is CSTs that needs to be implemented as soon as possible. What is happening now with the manifestation of color from the camera (LOG/RAW) is profanity. LUTS is not the option and it does not give what CSTs.
Well, what you're suggesting is not clear to me, that's why I'm asking.
You mention LUTs ... which aren't applied automatically by Premiere on anything, so that's confusing.
What is currently happening with some log-encoded media is that Premiere is seeing it as HLG/HDR. When actually is it just supposed to be log-encoded Rec.709. Premiere is supposed to be able to note when a file has Rec.709/sRGB color property tagging, that even if log-encoded it's still Rec.709. And for some formats/cameras, it does.
But for some others, it fails, and sees the log-encoding and improperly assumes Rec.2100/HLG as the nature of the media. The engineers have said it ain't supposed to be doing that, so they're trying to fix that part.
Which is kind of understandable when you know that all HDR media is encoded in a log format. Such as in the name, Hybrid Log Gamma ... that's a hybrid (mixing) of log encoding for all but the shadow regions, which use a gamma encoding process similar to SDR/Rec.709.
Further ... Pr2022 has clearly a completely new underlying color system/engine/whatever you call it. They haven't specifically said so, just talked about the many changes to color managment and default behaviors in Pr2022. But from working with it, yep, it isn't the old Rec.709 underlying math "with the ability to work with over-range data to work with HLG/PQ HDR media" cadged onto it.
So the reason we're getting some clear errors on the part of Pr's color right now is it's a totally newly built system. And yes, there are several errors from what the engineers expect such as the totally broken proxy system for HLG/PQ clips. And again, they're working on fixing it. It ain't supposed to be like this.
So ... that said, what would you like to see for behavior?
I don't usually plug plugins, but since Premiere isn't going to support ACEs anytime soon, check out Cinematch.
"CineMatch converts your footage from one Log picture style to another. Mix and match between SLog2/3, CLog, BRaw, V-Log/L, RED IPP2 and more, and apply the correct REC.709 transform with a single click.
I've heard some good things about Cinematch, and as we don't currently have an ability within Premiere to user-select matching camera color spaces, this is about as good as you can get.
You can mostly build working models yourself with a bit of time & experience. But Cinematch jumpstarts things a ton. Within the cameras they are set to work with, of course.
I've been pushing for something my colorist friends are mostly doing in Resolve these days: all media on import is assigned a CST to specifically move that clip from whatever it is, to P3/D65, the widest practical color space available. Then they select Rec.709 for their display option if going to a Rec.709 deliverable. Or an HDR option for monitoring for an HDR deliverable.
Then as all media is in the same space/gamut, the color controls all work the same on all clips. No matter the camera. Which is a very good thing.
Premiere used to work the same for a color control surface with all clips, which isn't surprising, as everything within Premiere was treated as Rec.709 up through Pr2021.
But ... as of the Pr2022 release, there are some subtle and some not-so-subtle differences between different formats/codecs/media types. HLG/PQ/log-encoded clips don't 'feel' precisely the same anymore, when correcting on my Elements panel.
Neil, I'm not talking about the problem of color profiles right now. I mean, we need a similar tool that allows us, without plugins and LUT, to transform raw material into its native color space as in a camera without loss of quality. Do you now understand the scale of the importance of this tool?
That's what I'm trying to understand, because no, I'm not quite understanding your specific idea.
Saying essentially "It's a bit like, but not really... " doesn't tell me enough to know exactly what you're envisioning. And I want to.
Neil. I will give an example of what I and many people want. We have the footage captured on camera in LOG/RAW (raw). This shooting format is used by the majority, as it allows you to flexibly and efficiently configure media for post-production. I, and not only I, want and require a tool for developing the specified media without loss of quality in detail. If correct, then this is the science of color, which allows you to get a clean, uncompressed and undeformed true image that does not require a technical LUT. All you need to do in the future is to balance the developed PC in terms of exposure, temperature and contrast. And only then, if a specific task is required from the customer or your initiative to stylize this shot LUT. That's the tool we need. This is not a technical LUT, this is not what you meant. Ask your colorist friends what I mean and you will get the right answer.
At least someone understood what I'm writing about here and what native support tool I want to get from Adobe (not from a third-party manufacturer). This is a very important moment of material transformation without loss of quality.
Ah, you want something like the Red and BRAW control panels? Those are for raw formats though.The raw formats don't have a color space/gamut or such applied to the data yet, which is why they have the full panels for decoding/debayering, and setting curves or gamma and white/mids/shadow points & rolloffs to a 'normalized' media..
A lot of log-encoded media in say Resolve has CSTs ... color space transforms ... available in Resolve. So you have an Arri, Sony, and Canon log media used in a project. They have a long list of CSTs you select to apply to certain log-encoded types from certain cameras. In an ACES workflow, I don't recall if they use the CSTs or a tonemapped operation at the moment.
And I've been through tons of discussions on how to utilize and shape those CSTs and prep or trim the individual clips or groups of clips through them.
I've watched the wonderful FMC training of Walter Volpatto building his own transform operations for a film that is using three primary cameras. Using the Curves panel to very tightly craft each, matching the end result by shifting the gray point to match each camera sensor's official gray point, and then carefully setting shadow and highlight curves to match tonal range and fall-offs.
Which can be used as either a set node structure or of course a 1D/3D LUT in Resolve, using its "shaper-LUT" capability. Sadly, the 1D/3D LUTs don't seem to work in Premiere. But watching what his personalized transforms did was amazing. Dramatically cut down the needed shot-matching between cameras.
Here we need something similar for the manifestation of raw frames received from various cameras. To be clear, DaVinci has this Color space transform tool as one of the similar ones. But, I would like to immediately set the color space through the Input Color function, so that the magic happens with painting frames without using LUT. This is also available in Da Vinci. Do you understand what I mean?
We develop the material as we received it from the camera. Now Premiere has the opportunity to develop such materials only using LUT or independently.
Getting an ability to set input color is one of the things of my UserVoice request, for a SINGLE color management panel. One panel for all CM controls ... one panel to rule them all ... lol ...
And the CSTs like in Resolve are exactly what I'd want. In Resolve, you can set the input CST for different types of media. Would be so nice.
I'm arguing with the Adobe color people for going to a P3/D65 timeline space for everything, and using input CSTs from any camera/space to that, with an output transform set to the current display space, and of course, transforms to any chosen export space.
This is something that a lot of colorist's are going to. P3/D65 is the widest practical color space available both now and realistically for quite some time. It's very easy to transform both into it from everything and out of it to everything.
All color tools will behave the same no matter the clip's format/codec/space. SDR/HDR, who cares?
You just trim it a bit differently between SDR and HDR.
Exactly. That's what needs to be done now. This is a serious issue in terms of the quality and productivity of the workflow.
and here's an ACES plugin for Premiere. Boris Sapphire 2020 features a new effect called S_OCIOTransform, which allows Sapphire to apply an OCIO transform inside of any application, bringing OCIO Color Management to many applications that have yet to adopt the OCIO standard.
Yes, I have heard and seen. But, such a similar tool should be in Premiere. He has to be there. The correct display of the color space is the key to image quality. The lut can be tinted or adjusted to give style. But, first you need to competently develop this material. I still don't understand why so much time has passed since the introduction of standard tools on the color page panel and that's it. There is no development with color in Premiere today. I think developers should and are simply obliged to keep this page up to date and look for solutions so that users simply have a lot of opportunities when working with color, and not limited sliders of dark, medium and light. This does not resemble a professional product, but something similar to an amateur application with three settings.
Um, there's been massive changes in Premiere's color recently ... it's the entire reason for all the issues with log-encoded and HLG clips that people are having. They've completely rebuilt the underlying color system.
It was purely Rec.709/SDR, with as Lars Borg, their chief color scientist called it ... "An ability to work with HLG/PQ values in Rec.2100 working with them as over-range values". A cadged-together way to sorta work with HDR media.
This 2022 version clearly ain't Rec.709 based anymore. The new CM controls for much media in the Interpret Footage dialog and Sequence Settings, plus HLG/PQ export presets are all new. The monitoring is also completely different, because before you had to have a BlackMagic or AJA output device to get an HDR signal out of the computer. Now, you can use your GPU connection just fine, if you know how to go about it.
And in 2021 and prior, when I was working on color with my Tangent Elements panel, there was no difference in 'feel' working on a regular Rec.709 clip, a log-encoded clip, or an HLG or PQ clip.
Now ... there is. The controls don't affect the clips exactly the same, there's a subtle but present difference between the amount of 'touch' needed for Rec.709 versus log or HLG/PQ clips. It's like being in Resolve in that way now.
Which is one of the reasons so many colorists do an input move of all clips to a wide gamut, Arri wide was popular but now P3/D65 seems to be taking over. That wide gamut is used on the timeline for all color work, with an output display transform to say Rec.709, and output export transform then to Rec.709.
Because when you use one gamut for all clips on a sequence, all color tools behave the same with all clips.
I'm pushing Lars to adopt the P3/D65 internal pipeline, as the reasons for using it are very sound. It's the widest/deepest current practical color space/gamut, and will be for several more years to come. Next, it's easy to map anything accurately and repeatedly into and out of P3/D65.
So there has been massive change in the underlying color system of Premiere with this 2022 series. Completely new system. And I'd guess that's why there hasn't been any change in the Lumetri control panel itself.
Especially as they have several things to complete yet. Like fixing the broken proxy process with HLG/PQ clips, an acknowledged bug 'of high priority'. And the problem that many log-encoded SDR clips from DSLRs and drones are being 'seen' as HLG clips, rather than SDR/Rec.709. Kinda understandable, sort of, as "normal" Rec.709/SDR clips are 'integer-encoded' mathematically, and all HDR media is log-encoded.
But of course, many log-encoded clips are SUPPOSED to be Rec.709/SDR.
And this problem is particularly bad, as many of the cameras and clips affected do not currently get CM support in the Interpret Footage dialog. So Premiere is mis-interpreting your media, and you do not have any override option for it. NOT what is supposed to be happening, and again, caught the engineers by surprise. Another bug they're listing as high priority.
I would guesstimate that some form of input transform function or tonemappping or something is also in the works, as it is required to fully flesh out the changes they've already released. Plus the capability to monitor in various space/gamut setups, as well as widening export setups.
So I think they're actually rather busy with color at the moment. Just not in a way that most users necessarily see.
And I'm puzzled by the comment about three sliders of light, medium, and dark. No clue there.
Neil, it works crooked and ugly. I still haven't seen a fix in the new edit material to the entire clip at once using LUT. It doesn't work. I have already repeatedly sent you a screenshot. The color conversion also displays the color incorrectly. What's the use of introducing new innovations? And then we wait for six months to fix it. New tools are being tightened. It's not working properly yet. So for the sake of a tick, something seems to be being done, but it doesn't seem to be.
And yes, push Lars for the introduction of Color transform, which this topic is dedicated to. This is much more important. Then some problems will be solved with the correct color display on the timeline and export.
"I have already repeatedly sent you a screenshot."
Apparently, somehow I've missed it. I don't recall any repeatedly sent screenshot ...
And ... "I still haven't seen a fix in the new edit material to the entire clip at once using LUT."
Which color conversion? Which LUT, applied to what media?
Yea, they've got some broken things at the moment as we've all noted. But I don't follow some of your comments at times, sadly. I need more specifics I think.
I've tried a few tech LUTs in the input CM settings, but as the clip showed a space of Rec.709 I didn't also check override to Rec.709.
So I'm wondering in that case if Premiere didn't override the LUT applicaction. Their tendency is to be if anything pedantically in order in processing operations. So that's what make me wonder ... the LUT was applied, but then an override to Rec.709 command processed ... would be very Adobe-ish.