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panning judder

New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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I have read previous threads about the issue of judder on camera pans, and tried out the solutions suggested, but I still have a problem.  In fact I've noticed there's judder on the panning in many commercially-produced films, so this seems to be a long-lasting problem. 

I'm a beginner really with Premiere, so maybe I'm missing something simple - I hope so!  I am trying to produce a video in which slow pans are a central feature, and am getting nowhere.  I am using a Sony 6300a shooting XAVC S HD at 50fps and 50p 50M.  When I play back through the camera I get the smoothest beautiful pans imaginable, but any playback through the computer, either the original file or exporting it through Premiere, gives judder which is completely unacceptable.

I've tried changing the sequence settings as recommended, changing the frame rate to 25 for instance, but nothing helps.  The fastest frame rate available seems to be 60. 

I've also tried exporting it in various codecs, none make a difference.  I imported Apple ProRes as that was recommended to me, but I can't it back even on something like VLC.  (I wonder if there's something wrong, as exporting to ProRes422 HQ gives me a file size for a 19 second clip of over 800KB which is massive.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Is your sequence frame rate 50 fps? Try creating a new sequence based off of your footage to make sure the settings match.

50fps played back at 50 fps should give you a very smooth pan, as long as it's not too fast. Even if it is fast 50fps should give you a smooth pan.

As for judder in films, yes, you will always see if if the pan is too fast, that's the reality of having your playback be 24fps and moving too quickly. It's the film equivalent of banding in a gradient that's 8-bit. There's simply not enough information to make things smooth: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cGijQgw18e0/hqdefault.jpg

Before you look at your export settings, make sure your Sequence Settings are correct. Please post a screenshot of those back here.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Dave, you're right with new digital pro sumer cameras when you say this ...

====

As for judder in films, yes, you will always see if if the pan is too fast, that's the reality of having your playback be 24fps and moving too quickly.

=====

But in reality ( if using the word film in the old context of 24 fps plastic 35mm film ) the fast motion creates BLUR, not judder.

Think of movies like LeMans, or Secretariat …. when panning fast with moving object ( race car or horse ) the stuff BLURS that is stationary relative to the moving object you are panning with... it does not judder.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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My Olympus TG-1 ( the point and shoot indestructible camera that can even shoot underwater) judders if I pan even at moderate speed. It is just not able to process the info into SD card ( mov h264 ) fast enough.

However, I accidentally dropped it into a boiling pot of beef stew once, while shooting from above, and after initial panic to get it out fast and run cold water on it in sink, it STILL WORKED !

Unfortunately some beef stew got stuck in the speaker hole so when people talk now and I play back they sound like Donald Duck.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Probably stupid, but I took an mp4 (h264) export of the SONY S LOG 4k stuff I edited from friend's original stuff... ( I made it 720p for vimeo ) and uploaded a few seconds of sample of PANNING and TILTING … where ( even with iterations of compressed to compressed to whatever Vimeo does ) show no juddering.  It aint great but it's all the time I'm willing to spend on this now. Will delete this sample in a day or so... as it is not MINE .. the original stuff belongs to a friend who shared stuff to help me figure out my own PIG computer editing with 4k stuff in 1080 timeline.

Whether the poster sees it or not it will be deleted from Vimeo very soon.

TOM SAMPLE on Vimeo

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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what I'm doing is long slow pans which I'm trying to make as smooth as I can (while doing it by hand) - and the subject is mainly woods in the snow, so there's lots of thin dark verticals (twigs, tree trunks) against essentially white, and this shows juddering very clearly.  My question is, given that the camera plays this back from the SD card perfectly (via I believe a hardware encoder), so even on a big projection you get no judder at all, how can I get it that smooth after going through software?

I notice on your clip that, allowing for manual shake which I admit is inevitable, there is actually noticable judder on the pans.  Or at least there is on my machine.  Is it my computer that's f up?  I don't think so, because I played a clip on a friend's Mac (I'm using a PC running Windows 10) and the problem was still there.

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Hi David,

I set the sequence to 50fps, and then 25fps (see screengrab) - they were both pretty much the same, even though I read somewhere that 25fps might smooth things out more.  In fact the judder was really bad on both 50 and 25.  I tried 10fps just to see, and the judder was much worse, which was kind of re-assuring, even though I still don't have the solution.Adobe Premiere Pro 2019 - D__MacDowell_MacDowell video files_projects_test may 16 16_05_2019 18_09_43.png

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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My impression is that you have two things going on..

1) shooting (recording ) settings that satisfy you ( what you get out of the camera natively )

2) editing and export to final product for viewing or delivery.

I suggest you deal with the shooting part first. When you get stuff out of camera ( I assume it's an SD card ) put it on an internal hard drive and play it on VLC and see what you got.

You only need to shoot 3-4 second TESTS to do this painstaking work.

I hope you have a tripod and a good camera head ( like a fluid head ). That way you can set it up near your computer, point camera out window or at some lighted area, and do your tests with slow pan... quickly have access to SD card, computer, and move along with testing.

I recently worked on some 4k stuff a friend shot (with slow pans included ) with a sony camera ( S log, mov h264, 4.2.0 ), and it looked fine. I wanted to know how my edit computer would handle 4k ( it's old and only good for 1080p ). So I put the 4k into a 1080p timeline ( 23.976 FPS) and it was fine. Had to proxy it though.

He was getting stuff out of camera with SD card.

In the U.S. 23.976 fps is good with 180 deg shutter. In 50Hz electric land ( U.K., Australia, etc. ) the shutter would be 172.8 degrees at 23.976 or 24 FPS to avoid flickering lights.

I have a Nikon D800 that shoots to an SD card ( mov h264 ) which sucks. So I use an Atomos Ninja recorder ( HDMI out of camera to HDMI Into Atomos ). I use DNxHD in the Atomos, and the SSD is about 1 TB.  That puts my 4.2.0 color from chip (hdmi out is uncompressed ) into a higher bitrate file with 4.2.2.  Don't get more color, but once imported to editor the other stuff I add ( graphics, effects, transitions ) look nicer in 4.2.2. space.

So, bottom line... get the shooting down right first.... Then worry about the editing.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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P.S. if you are in 50Hz land, just shoot 25 fps at any shutter angle, you should be fine.

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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I got a good result playing from the SD card in the camera - perfect.  But when I imported it to the computer the file wouldn't play smoothly, either directly or through Premiere.  So I've got all my footage on SD, but can't edit it cleanly.

I can't follow your technical stuff, sorry.  But even though the 6300a is 4K, I was using it at HD.  It should just play, shouldn't it?

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LEGEND ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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What was your shutter speed? We work with the A6300 frequently and do not see pronounced judder in pan shots.

Can you describe the computer you are using and how you have the media storage configured?

MtD

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Hi MtD

the shutter speed was 50fps

the machine a Dell Alienware #Intel(R) Core i7-65OOU CPU at 2.50GHz  2.6 GHz

16GB RAM

64-bit

running WIndows 10 Home

I'm not sure how the media storage is configured - how do I tell

thanks

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LEGEND ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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50fps is not a shutter speed. That is the frame rate. A shutter speed is something like 1/48, 1/60 1/125 . . .

If you are shooting at a shutter speed that is substantially higher than the frame rate, each frame will have a much sharper appearance - and some of the natural blurring that occurs as the camera is panned will not occur, and the pan will appear to have a much more staccato appearance.

MtD

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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sorry, a slip of the brain there - I was shooting at 50 fps.  Shutter speed was variable, usually around 100th sec.

SO you think the fact that the shutter speed was usually higher than the frame rate would make it look staccato...   The thing is, the judder is more than that I think -  the picture moves in fits and starts.  I thought maybe the computer wasn't fast enough, but I was told it was fine.  What I don't understand is that it looks fine when played back from the camera - even projected on the wall there is no judder st all.  Someone said it was the encoding that was the issue, and if I played it back on a media player it might be different.  I haven't got a media player to hand so I haven't tried that...

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LEGEND ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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If the issue is that the:

julianm78132012  wrote

The thing is, the judder is more than that I think -  the picture moves in fits and starts. 

There are many variables involved in this. My first suggestion would be to try (as a test) a proxy edit on a few selected clips and see if that gets you better viewing performance from your system.

There are lots of guides to use proxies, you can Google for more:

Adobe Premiere Pro Help | Ingest and Proxy Workflow in Adobe Premiere Pro CC

Basic Premiere Pro editing workflow

Also, if your go to the menu  File > Project Settings > General, what is the renderer set to?

MtD

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Really sorry Mrs, I've been called away. I'll do what you suggest when I

get back. Thanks so much and applies again.

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Not Mrs of course... MtD!

On Thu, 16 May 2019, 20:29 julian maynard smith, <

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New Here ,
May 17, 2019 May 17, 2019

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Hi

I tried a new project and imported a single 19 second clip - the same juddering happens.

The renderer is set to:  Mercury Playback Engine Software Only

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Mostly, describe how you are shooting it to begin with... your source material and wrapper and codec and frame rate and so on... just as a beginning...  after THAT it's about matching settings in the editor etc...

This is a fast motion ( with panning etc. ) sample... from film projection at 24 fps to TV broadcast...uploaded to YouTube...

You'll see the inside fence doing some stuttering... but that is mostly from the conversion. I sincerely doubt the projection in theatre had that effect... just introduced later in broadcast...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx533GIKhZU

At about 1:58 the white inside fence verticals stutter a bit.. but I think it's because of the conversion from 24fps projection to TV standard ( 30 fps .. adding 6 frames per second for broadcast ). This YouTube thing was not captured and posted from a projection obviously.

I think the camera operator knew this fence thing would be weird when converted and tried to frame it out...

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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I was using a Sony 6300a shooting XAVC S HD at 50fps and 50p 50M. 

I have doing slow pans, dark trees against snow, so any judder is really noticeable (especially when projected - and I'm trying to get good quality here), and the twigs clearly stutter the whole time across the screen.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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move the files from SD card to your internal HD or SSD in your computer. Copy SD files to your hard drive inside the computer.

Once you have that done, play them with VLC and see how it looks.

Nothing plays or edits well from SD cards inserted into computer port.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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we have to narrow down your questions into segments that make sense to everyone. So we are on the same page.

First off, are you recording video to an SD card

Yes / no

Secondly, are you copying those files on the SD card to an internal HD or SSD in your computer

Yes / no

Thirdly, after you copy the files to your computer from the SD card ( take out the SD card if you're not sure if you are still trying to use it after moving files to computer ) … does it play OK in VLC ?

Yes / no

Let's start with that ...

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New Here ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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Yes, the video is recorded to an SD card, which plays fine in the camera.

I am then copying the files to a SSD in the computer.

When I play back from the computer it judders, on the Windows player and also on VLC

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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the juddering you see on my clip ( Tom Sample) is because your download internet speed isn't fast enough to see it smoothly. It sometimes needs to 'buffer' ( your computer ) the file you watch on internet.... Like, sometimes if you play the same clip twice ( after first one judders ) then the second attempt will play smooth ( due to buffering the file inside your computer ).

That's fairly normal so don't worry about it. Just play it twice is usually the solution to watching videos online.

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Mentor ,
May 16, 2019 May 16, 2019

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with regard to your real problem, we are starting at the very beginning... long before you upload your stuff or watch anything on internet.

We first want to make sure that you are recording stuff from you camera properly.

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