Proxies blown out in but footage looks fine

New Here ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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I have never tried making proxies before, but am taking a video class where the instructor asked us to.  I am shooting on a Sony A7III. Media Encoder and Premiere Pro are up to date. When I toggle to the proxy, the entire thing is blown out.  I have tried all the different format for proxies and the same thing is happening.  When I toggle back, my footage still looks fine.  Does anyone know why the proxies looking so blown out?  Screen Shot 2021-12-10 at 3.41.38 PM.png Screen Shot 2021-12-10 at 6.02.21 PM.png

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

Hi Katharineann,

Sorry about that. It looks as though you may have shot the footage in HDR/HLG, and automatic interpretation of the footage kicked in - which is a new feature of v.22. This feature caught a lot of Sony and iPhone users unaware.

Are clips shot in HLG/HDR? If so, you may want to interpret them as Rec709 in the Modify > Interpret Footage dialog box. You may also need to create a new preset for proxies so that they match your color managed clips.

 

If this is all too much to deal wit

...

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Adobe Employee ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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Hi Katharineann,

Sorry about that. It looks as though you may have shot the footage in HDR/HLG, and automatic interpretation of the footage kicked in - which is a new feature of v.22. This feature caught a lot of Sony and iPhone users unaware.

Are clips shot in HLG/HDR? If so, you may want to interpret them as Rec709 in the Modify > Interpret Footage dialog box. You may also need to create a new preset for proxies so that they match your color managed clips.

 

If this is all too much to deal with right now, you can always move back to the previous version of Premiere Pro and work with that until you have worked out all the details of a SDR vs. HDR workflow.

 

As a Sony user, you should take heed of this new feature - which you may wish to use or avoid (most casual users were fine with the previous workflow). Either way, you have to make a choice moving forward to embrace HDR or to move back to a Rec709 workflow. 

Hope the advice helps but come back with any questions.

 

Thanks,
Kevin

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New Here ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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My media was shot in a custom picture profile using HLG3.  Can you tell me please if this aspect of this new feature is something permanent moving forward?

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Contributor ,
Apr 29, 2022 Apr 29, 2022

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i have shoot that was shot flag/log with sony cameras i think. When I choose interpret footage, and choose Rec709, the footage looks fine IF THE PROXY BUTTON IS OFF. the minute i turn BACK ON THE PROXY BUTTON the footage looks horrendous, and its only blown out but its these wild outrageous colors. how do I fix the proxy footage looking ridiculous?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 29, 2022 Apr 29, 2022

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In the public beta. You create the proxies same as always but make sure the proxy preset has the SDR Conform option checked "on".

 

And you can have the beta and regular both installed. Open the project in the beta, close it. Open and work in regular version.

 

Neil

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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There's a problem with the 2022 version with proxies and some Log and HLG original media.

 

Is your original media a log or HLG format? Have you checked the clip properties, or used the Modify/Interpret Footage CM section to change the use of this from something to something? What is your sequence color management (CM) set to, also?

 

Neil

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New Here ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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My original media is in a custom picture profile that does use HLG.  Thank you!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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There is a problem with the current CM for proxies. I've been in touch with a couple devs, who after testing what I sent them, noted there is clearly a problem.

 

Premiere seems to make proxies from the original media without linking them to the CM applied to the original clip. Depending on what you or Premiere does to transform or not to either Rec.709 or HLG, you get different issues.

 

That top image looks like a Rec.709 image. So have you used the Override to Rec.709 option and then used the original clips on a Rec.709 sequence?

 

If not, did Premiere create a Rec.709 sequence and auto-transform the file to that color space?

 

What I'm expecting ... is that the original is being shown as Rec.709, but the proxies are still HLG, and therefore being shown as if on an HDR timeline.

 

Neil

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New Here ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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I dd not Override.  From what I can tell, Premiere created a Rec.709 sequence and auto-transformed the file.  The original is being shown as Rec.709.  I was able to create a ingest profile for media encoder that takes care of the blown out issue but haven't been able to get the colors to match.  Still playing around with it a bit but may just go back to older version of PP for tonight to get this project done for my class before I spend more time fussing with it.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Dec 10, 2021 Dec 10, 2021

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Yes, I would totally concur with going back to the older version for this project.

 

Proxies ... seem to be blown right now for some media, and even I haven't figured out a way around that. If anyone DOES come up with a way to create a proxy preset that works with CM -overriden clips, PLEASE post it here!

 

Neil

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New Here ,
Mar 13, 2022 Mar 13, 2022

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Mentor ,
Mar 13, 2022 Mar 13, 2022

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that doesn't reference the proxy issue. unless there's a way to change color management of just proxies, i'm all ears.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 14, 2022 Mar 14, 2022

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You're correct, Chris, it doesn't fix the issue of this thread ... the proxy problem.

 

Neil

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New Here ,
Mar 14, 2022 Mar 14, 2022

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This did fix my proxie issue.  Before I made this adjustment my proxies were blown out, I made this adjustment from the video and then when I toggle proxies, the proxy and the original look the same.  Before, when I toggled proxies, the proxy was blown out but the original looked fine.

 

Did you try this on your blown out proxies?  It solved my issue.  Fact.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 14, 2022 Mar 14, 2022

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Wow ... that's ... interesting ... and thanks for posting!

 

Because that's not the behavior I've been getting, and the engineer's confirmed. So ... will have to find time to test that to see if my rig will behave the same as yours.

 

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 04, 2022 Apr 04, 2022

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Hey Neil, 

 

In another article that you wrote, it was mentioned that the export settings for your proxy ingest needed to be set to SDR Conform. However, even after doing that my proxies are all out of whack. I tried rebuilding my export and ingest presets from the ground up in Media Encoder with these settings, re-imported into premiere, and still no luck. It's like SDR conform just isn't working at all. 


I saw that After Effects had some option for exporting color workspace settings along with exports to media encoder, but those don't seem the same with Premiere. 

 

I'm assuming that the SDR conform isn't working and that's why we are having these issues? I've tried everything from using different color interpretation settings to removing them all together and it just doesn't work.

 

I was just getting ready to work on a project after finally figuring out how to get the videos to display properly going from HDR to 709. For me, using Interpret as Rec 2020 gives me a "dull" preview video, but then i plop it on a rec 709 workspace and i get almost 100% accurate color and contrast. Although there still seems to be a little bit of blow out in the highlights. If I interpret as rec 709 and move to the rec 709 workspace, the preview comes out extremely dull and unsaturated and the same in the workspace. Not sure what's up with that?

 

So, on top of the proxy errors, I don't know if I'm doing this right as far as interpeting the footage. Are we effectively stuck on proxy exports at this time? What are your thoughts on my interpret footage process?

 

Mind you, my video is on iPhone 13 Pro Max, shot in Filmic Pro with Rec 2020 (ProRes). 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 04, 2022 Apr 04, 2022

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First, I might suggest using the Rec.709 profile still for shooting. No one I know is delivering much actual HDR content yet. I would expect that will change over the next year or two but at the moment ... Rec.709 is much easier to work with and deliver.

 

Next .. yes, some users have been able to get the SDR conform to work with proxies, I wasn't.

 

But they have a new public beta release that supposedly gets the proxies to work with the Interpret Footage color managment settings of the original clip. I haven't tested it yet, but you might want to check it out.

 

And you can take projects forth & back between the 'normal' and the public beta versions without difficulties too. Just add the install of the public beta, open there, and see if it will make decent proxies.

 

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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That sounds good. Thank you for the feedback.


My reasoning for choosing HDR was because it captures more usable image data in low lighting settings. However, I'm not sure how much of this is translated through once the image data is "interpereted" to rec 709 during editing. My guess was that, as you grade, you can bring up details that wouldn't normally be found by recording in regular 709. For example, details normally lost in the shadows on rec 709 would still be available in HDR footage and, when making adjustments to the image in the 709 workspace, the image data is still there to bring up into the working 709 spectrum.

 

I'm not sure if that makes complete sense but.. I guess its the reason why I am justifying trying this difficult path.


Would love to hear if I'm incorrect! haha.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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Besides "hanging here" and my own work, I'm a "contibuting author" over at MixingLight.com, the big colorist's pro teaching site. The founders there were the ones that Dolby Labs hired to do the in-house demos for colorists on how to work with DolbyVision in Resolve & Baselight. So I've been around a ton of discussions & work with both SDR and HDR.

 

In some ways, you're kinda right ... but not really. Mostly so?  lol

 

There are two big things in learning to work with HDR ... the absolute biggest gain isn't dynamic range black-to-white, it's the massively increased color volume available in HDR work. And the second, is it's the shadows that benefit more from the dynamic range than the highlights. (This is where you're sorta right.)

 

The first, the larger color volume is easy enough to understand. The second, the increased shadow range, is at first odd. But given that realistically you only take the 'paper white' or "graphics white" to around 200-210 nits, that's about doubling the total tonal range for "detailed" objects. Everything above around 210 is simply bright color data. Speculars.

 

So it means you have more details in the shadows you can work with, more subtlety you can massage. And that for the colorists I know, the increased shadow subtlety is about as addictive as the bigger color Crayola box. Yea, going from the 16 color box of crayons to the 128 color box is awesome. But so is getting to do really cool shading and tinting of all those deep shadows.

 

There's a problem there though ... after you finish the HDR grade, when you scrunch things down for the SDR deliverable, both gains go away. One of the colorists says the biggest thing he's learned in working the few actual paid HDR gigs he's delivered is that it's easier to grade, really. You aren't always shoving 13 stops into a 7-8 stop 'screen'. Poking and jabbing here & there to make it fit. Grading HDR is in many ways more 'natural' to quite a few colorists once they get a handle on it.

 

But ... and its a big one ... SDR doesn't have all those tones down there, and fitting things in is bloody hard, even more so when you start out with a tone more tones. It really takes the software being able to give a pretty good transform between color spaces/range.

 

At the moment, it's really easier to do SDR from SDR media. It ... fits ... easier. Especially in Premiere at this time in its color managment development. Maybe in a few months they'll have transforms for this. Right now, they've a new S-log3.cine transform available for that media that's pretty awesome, I think the best color management too they've made yet.

 

But most other media ... their transforms and color tools work mostly. You can get by with them. So yea, you can stuff it in, but why would you want to? It's more work, and really doesn't get better results. Although ... in another year, if you're going to rework the project, it might be nice to have the extra DR and color.

 

So it's a user choice thing of course ... though I'm still mostly shooting SDR. Although the BRAW from my BMPCC4K can of course be normalized to Rec.709 or go directly to a P3 or Rec.2100 space. My second cam, the old beloved GH3 ... strictly SDR. So it's gonna need a replacement over the next year.

 

I figure at NAB in a couple weeks, I'll be looking over what's out. See if BlackMagic has any news for their cams. Or others, though probably at this point I'll go with a BM cam. Might pick up another 4k, or perhaps a 6k. Unless something else pops up.

 

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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Got it. Thank you for the thought out response! Amazing info as always.

 

So, if I'm understanding right, by shooting HDR footage, interpreting to Rec 2020, then plopping it on my Rec 709 premiere workspace (where it effectively "converts" to 709 during editing), it isn't pulling in the extra data that is available from the HDR footage during grading?


In my minds eye, if i pull up the shadows while editing the HDR footage on the 709 workspace (with the original footage still hdr, not permanently converted already and then plopped into the workspace - "interpreted"), some details lost in the shadows of the 709 workspace would still be usable once brought back up into the usable range of 709 via adjustments.


Kind of like, a black cat shadow against a dark street: invisible on 709. But, since the video is HDR, it stil has that data and I can lighten the shadows to bring in that black cats shadow to the viewable scope so its there for use on final 709 export.


Does this make sense?

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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My question here is ... how is Premiere doing on the export for that? As there's been problems on exports with some media types of HDR footage if you don't interpret. Simply 'dropping' to Rec.709 with Lumetri looked ok, but on export, it was still blown out.

 

Are you getting this work through to the export?

 

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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Hey Neil, 

 

I may have worded my message poorly. I do interpret the footage. Haha. Apologies!

 

However, so far so good. When I interpret to rec 2020 and watch in the file preview its slightly dull. But moving it onto a sequence and setting it to a rec 709 workspace gives me full color and is very vibrant. Some adjustments are necessary, but then I can export and it looks exactly the same as my edit. I even tried exporting to the horrid H.264 format and it seemed perfect. 

 

My only issue now seems to be with proxies!

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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Well, if that's working, awesome.

 

About the proxies, have you tried the public beta yet for making those? You can install it "alongside" the shipping version and it's fine. And even open projects in the beta, close, and open in the shipping.

 

The reason I ask is they have a hoped-for fix for HDR proxies in the public beta.

 

Neil

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Community Beginner ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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I haven't yet, but I'm trying to figure out how to download the beta. I'll report back once I figure it out and give it a shot! Thank you

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Apr 05, 2022 Apr 05, 2022

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Easy ... in the Creative Cloud desktop app, along the left side, the beta apps tab ...

 

Neil

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