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Subclips inconsistent behavior; not always working correctly in Premiere Pro CC

Engaged ,
Jun 24, 2013 Jun 24, 2013

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I load a clip into the Source panel.  I set in and out points and then CTRL + U to create a subclip.  I have "Restrict Trim to subclip boundaries" turned off.  (Thank you Adobe, I've been waiting for "soft" subclips forEVER!)  The new subclip appears in my Project panel with the correct name and duration (as well as a white audio icon to indicate that it has not yet been used in my project).  Now, I drag that subclip into my sequence.  But the entire clip (a 5 minute interview), from which the subclip was derived, is loaded onto the timeline.

This has been working correctly for the last hour, and now it has stopped working.  It appears that for the moment, subclipping is dead to me. 

Help?!

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 24, 2013 Jun 24, 2013

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I just repro'd the same behavior on mac 10.8.4. I'll look into it. Thanks.

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Engaged ,
Jun 24, 2013 Jun 24, 2013

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Also, perhaps it's helpful; perhaps not:  This issue is occuring with a clip that I Merged earlier (manually sync'd — since "Synchronize" thus far, for me, also does not work at all).

Since the new "Synchronize" and "Merge" (using Audio to sync the merged clip) commands do not work for me—that is they don't actually synchronize even the most similar audio/video waveforms).  My workflow is this: 

I take an AVCHD interview clip (5 minutes from Canon VIXIA HF G20 camcorder) and manually lined it up with it's coresponding audio recorder file (320k MP3 file—I have my reasons) on my "Interviews to be Merged" Sequence.  Once the video and audio are lined up, I "Merge Clips...".  Then (and I wish it wasn't a two-step process) I find the newly merged clip in my Project panel and "Modify > Audio Channels".  I reduce the clip down to Mono with 1 Channel assigning the track with the MP3 as the only active audio.  Now I'm ready to edit.  I double click the newly minted clip, complete with great audio, and it loads into the Source monitor.  Using the J, K, L keys, I find and mark my In and Out points.  Then I CTRL + U to "Make Subclip".

I've just noticed (hence this update) that the clip I that was working earlier is a clip (from same camera) that is using original, on-camera shotgun mic, instead of a lav, which means I did not put it through the "Merge Clips..." and "Modify > Audio Channels" process before attempting to create subclips from it.

When you were able to repro the issue, what type of clip did you happen to be using?  Merged?  Modified channels?  Curious.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jun 25, 2013 Jun 25, 2013

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Actually the repro turned out to be usr error in my case. I dragged the sourc clip in to compare to the subclip, forgetting that it still shared the same in/out points at that point. I tired it on additional systems and was unable to repro your steps. I triesdi ti wiht just standard mov clip, nothing that had been merged or modified. If you would like to send me a test clip, I can try the steps again.

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Engaged ,
Jun 25, 2013 Jun 25, 2013

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Where can I upload?

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New Here ,
Jul 02, 2013 Jul 02, 2013

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I can't get subclips to work on merged clips.

1. Brand new project

2. Import video AVCHD

3. Import mono WAV audio from lav mic

4. Create sequence and manually sync clip - (note that video is a subset of audio clip)

5. Merge clips

6. Open new (merged) clip in source

7. Make a subclip

8. Open subclip

The subclip is time shifted from where it was set, to a seemingly random offset.

FYI brand new iMac, i5, GTX 675MX, Premiere Pro CC, everything with latest updates.

PS Occasionally when I am trying to do this, it just completely crashes with this error:

[/sirreel64/releases/2013.02/shared/adobe/MediaCore/Backend/Make/Mac/../../Src/Clip/AudioClip.cpp-959]

At this rate, I'll be downgrading to CS6 tomorrow.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 02, 2013 Jul 02, 2013

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I succeeded in creating a subclip from a merged clip, and the subclip starts at the correct frame. Please provide more specifics about how you merged--what did you use as the sync point? If you didn't use the In Point as the sync point, then what's the offset between the start of the video and the audio, and does that correspond directly to the offset in the subclip?

I too hit a crash while testing this, but at a different place (InsertEdit4PointInfo.cpp-74). I've taken note of both crashes and will write them up.

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New Here ,
Jul 02, 2013 Jul 02, 2013

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Thanks for that, Mark.

I've done a little more testing, and the problem seems to be related to merged clips where (for me) the audio is longer than the video.

Here's a screenshot of some testing I did:

'Screen Shot.png

Let me talk you through the project browser:

- At the top there are the source video and audio

- I then made bins for a trimmed sequence version and an untrimmed sequence (what I mean by trimmed is that the audio was chopped down to the same duration as the video, after syncing)

- I did the syncing on both manually. For the untrimmed clip, the audio leads the video by 1:29:04.

- I then made merges of both

- I then made subclips of both

Remarks:

1) The trimmed versions seem to work fine, though I haven't done serious testing. At least the media start and end make sense.

2) The untrimmed merge "Merge (untrimmed)" is showing a Media Start of 23:57:04:10, which is just wrong. First of all this is a 'negative' time number (C++ signed/unsigned int math coding error?), secondly, it doesn't seem to match anything because it is an offset of -2:55:14, when the video offset is +1:29:04.

3) When I open "Untrimmed.Subclip001" (as shown in the Source window) it shows a start time of "23:57:04:10" (the very beginning of the "Merge (untrimmed)" clip) instead of "23:58:33:14" which is where I'd set the in point for the subclip (and is shown in the Media Start column). What plays back is, indeed, the very beginning of the untrimmed clip. This is also the case with "Untrimmed.Subclip002" which had an In point set at 6:00:00.

4) The Subclip Start times shown are totally broken. I really have no idea where it is getting those numbers from. On the other hand, the End times seem to be ok (if you again ignore the fact that I have an end time of "23+ hours" on a clip that is 1 hour long.

5) The Audio In and Out Points shown don't make any sense to me. They're all just a little bit off the other numbers that are shown.

Lastly, the source video is AVCHD 1080p24 from a Panasonic GH2 and the audio is 48kHz 24-bit mono from a Zoom H4n

I hope this helps with your diagnosis.

Looking forward to your feedback.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 03, 2013 Jul 03, 2013

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Thanks, that's great info. I'll investigate next week upon returning from the company shutdown.

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LEGEND ,
Jul 03, 2013 Jul 03, 2013

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the source video is AVCHD 1080p24 from a Panasonic GH2 and the audio is 48kHz 24-bit mono from a Zoom H4n

I actually completed a project using that exact media recently, so I opened it up and made a subclip from the Merged clip and sure enough, dragging that to the sequence brought the entire clip, not just the subclip.

So I did it again, this time checking the "Restrict" box, and guess what...the shorter subclip came over.  And I was able to drag beyond the initially set bounds, so even with that box checked, it is still a 'soft' subclip in the sequence.

Either I don't understand that checkbox, or it ain't working right.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 08, 2013 Jul 08, 2013

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I reproed exactly as reported, including the elements that Jim added. Bug report has been logged.

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Engaged ,
Jul 09, 2013 Jul 09, 2013

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Mark, it occurs to me that at a deeper level, the cause of this bug may be the same root cause as the massive multicam bug (or vice versa).  Think about it.  In both cases we're dealing with footage that is given a command to essentially use only a part of a clip, but then the reference is set to the beginning of the clip, rather than the correct in-point.  No problems are manifested with CTRL+K or the Razor (C) tool.  What object classes or methods are common to both multicam and sub-clips creation, but are NOT called upon for the CTRL+K or Razor actions?

#9 from Jim Simon seems to further the case.  When he sets a "hard" subclip, it works, just as it did in CS6.  But when he sets a "soft" subclip (like I experienced), the references is not set correctly. 

My thinking is that, if you fix one of these issues (multi-cam or soft subclips), at the right point in the code, you'll have fixed BOTH issues.  Just a guess.

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LEGEND ,
Jul 09, 2013 Jul 09, 2013

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When he sets a "hard" subclip, it works, just as it did in CS6.

Actually, no.  When I set a hard subclip by checking the Restrict box, it actually creates a properly functioning soft subclip, which hasn't existed in Premiere Pro since 1.5.  (It got 'broken' in CS2, when they were changed to hard subclips only.)

I can't imaging why anyone would want a hard subclip, so I'm happy to just check that box and start using subclips again. 

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Engaged ,
Jul 09, 2013 Jul 09, 2013

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Oh, good to know.  So the proper functioning of this feature is broken, but in it's failure, we get soft subclips anyway?  That's great!  Just weird.  I can live with that.  I agree, I never plan on using hard clips again.  I've been wishing for soft subclips ever since... well, subclips.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jul 10, 2013 Jul 10, 2013

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To be clear, this bug is limited to subclips created from merged clips--specifically merged clips where the audio starts before the video. As far as I'm aware--and I worked extensively on subclips last cycle--soft subclips from other sources are functioning as expected.

@cscooper: you're right that there are similarities between this bug and the multicam bug in that both involve PPRO getting confused about reference points in the content. But I doubt they're actually related. For one thing, the multicam bug is fixed in the updated released today, whereas the subclip-from-mergedclip bug is not.

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Engaged ,
Jul 11, 2013 Jul 11, 2013

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That seems to be my experience, yes.  Only soft subclips made from clips where I've previously merged audio and video.  And, yes, my audio is typically several hours long, while my video files may only be several minutes long.  I don't ever make merged clips where audio starts first.  My merged clips are trimmed to audio starting with video (but, yes, from files where the audio is much longer than the video).  My final subclip may only be several seconds long.

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Engaged ,
Jul 14, 2013 Jul 14, 2013

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OK, I've come across another related situation.

I have a SOFT SUBCLIP created from a regular (non-merged) clip.  I double-click to bring it into the source monitor.  If I fail to set an in point (so that my inferred in point is the beginning of the subclip), but I set an out point, then drag the clip from Source to Sequence, the entire clip upon which the subclip is based will be placed on my timeline.

If, however, I set an in point, this won't happen. 

So if there's a workaround (simply setting an in point), what's the big deal?  Well, it's not a BIG deal.  But my (bad?) habit is to set my in point correctly when I create the subclip.  Then when it's time to add it to the timeline, I listen for bits of that subclip.  On the first bit of that clip, I don't set an in point, just an out point (since the in point is usually inferred and this has always worked out for me).

At any rate, I thought this might add something to the discussion at hand—especially since this is happening on soft clips made from regular clips (not merged).

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New Here ,
Sep 11, 2013 Sep 11, 2013

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I am also expierenceing this problem with subclips.  When can we expect a fix?

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LEGEND ,
Sep 11, 2013 Sep 11, 2013

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I've not heard mention of it for the October release, so...

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New Here ,
Nov 27, 2013 Nov 27, 2013

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I'm having the same issue with my merged clips. Subclips are not being made, i'm essentially just creating multiples of the original merged clip.

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New Here ,
Aug 11, 2015 Aug 11, 2015

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Not able to make subclips from NONmerged clips that work properly. CC2015, still no fix?

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New Here ,
Sep 12, 2015 Sep 12, 2015

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Just started using subclips in an interview project and have run into similar problems as well; my impression is that there seems to be a problem with the way Premiere is handling the in and out points of subclips and not being able to keep track of them accurately. The very first clip I tried to edit into a sequence (after marking ins and outs on the subclip) brought over the entire original clip into the sequence. Since then, marking ins and outs on the subclips and dropping them in a sequence has been working great.

HOWEVER, one bug for sure is that if I load a subclip into the source monitor, set new in and out points, then load a different subclip in the source monitor and do the same, then return back to the previous clip, the in and out points are gone (very frustrating when trying to compare two different takes). The two subclips are from different master clips, so there is not a conflict there (even though theoretically it shouldn't matter). These are straight MOV files from a Canon 5DIII, no merged audio or anything. All subclips were created with the restricted trim box unchecked (ie soft subclips).

OS X 10.10.5

Premiere Pro 9.0.2 (CC 2015)

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Adobe Employee ,
Sep 12, 2015 Sep 12, 2015

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Hi RH CC,

First of all, thanks for your thoughtful post. I took a look at your issues.

Just started using subclips in an interview project and have run into similar problems as well; my impression is that there seems to be a problem with the way Premiere is handling the in and out points of subclips and not being able to keep track of them accurately. The very first clip I tried to edit into a sequence (after marking ins and outs on the subclip) brought over the entire original clip into the sequence. Since then, marking ins and outs on the subclips and dropping them in a sequence has been working great.

My experience is that subclips edited reliably into the Timeline. I didn't have the experience where the first subclip was the entire length of the master clip. If that happens again, please file a bug.

if I load a subclip into the source monitor, set new in and out points, then load a different subclip in the source monitor and do the same, then return back to the previous clip, the in and out points are gone (very frustrating when trying to compare two different takes).

Good catch. I could reproduce that behavior. Could you file a bug report on that?

Thanks,

Kevin

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Community Beginner ,
Oct 02, 2015 Oct 02, 2015

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Kevin,

Were you working with clips that had sync'd audio? I found subclips to work reliably, except in that instance. When I filed a bug report, it was every synchronized clip that reproduced the error, every time.

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New Here ,
Oct 26, 2015 Oct 26, 2015

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Hey there,

Has anyone worked with this since the bug has been fixed?  I have the same issues with the subclip, with merged audio, not pulling into the timeline correctly.  This program seriously needs to understand what it means to edit unscripted work!!!

Thanks

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