Upgrade Mac and Premiere but LUTs don't work - NOT color mgment issue

New Here ,
Jul 26, 2022 Jul 26, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Moving from Mac Pro to new Mac Studio and from Premiere 2018 on High Sierra to Premiere 22.5 on OS Monterey.

 

Have already worked through color management issues. (Bad dog, Adobe, bad, fix this now instead of the tiresome 6 step process for SLOG footage!)

 

I've re-installed the LUTs I used in the previous Premiere in exactly the same folder (Lib/Application support/Adobe/Common/LUTs/Technical) as recommended in Prem 2022.

 

When I open ongoing Premiere projects, the effect control space of Lumetri shows the LUT and settings as they were and the LUT changes each clip's look but not as it was or should be. It's a washed out look not too different to the untreated SLOG image. When you scroll down to the 'favourite' LUTs and select exactly the same LUT, presto, the clip looks like it should.

 

Surely, please, there's some way to avoid re-setting this on every one of the hundreds and hundreds of clips in ongoing documentary projects?? Thanks!

Screen Shot 2022-07-27 at 1.25.33 pm.png

TOPICS
Editing

Views

110

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 26, 2022 Jul 26, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I'm not used to working with the Lumetri effect very much via the ECP ... I tend to use it only via the panel as it's quicker to work there, and of course, I use a Tangent Elements panel.

 

But the "favorites" LUT option ... I've no clue what you mean by that.

 

There's the Input LUT slot in the Basic tab, which I never ever suggest people use because you can't trim the clip into the LUT ... by adjustments processed prior to the LUT ... for proper LUT usage.

 

And there's the "Look" slot in the Creative tab, which is where most all LUTs should be applied from.

 

LUTs being, as most colorists call them, "the dumbest math out there". They're simply a look-up table of "take pixel value of X and make it Y". If that clips or crushes pixels, so be it.

 

But if you apply a LUT in the Creative tab's Look slot, then use the Basic tab controls to trim exposure/contrast/whites/shadows/sat while viewing and "scoping" the results, you get the proper effect of the LUT without the clipping or crushing or other problems.

 

And for simplest access, I use and teach the Program-Package file/Adobe/COMMON/LUTs area. Seems simpler folder assignment to get to for my brain. (Of course, NEVER ever put LUTs in the Program/Premiere/Lumetri/LUTs folders ... )

 

As to the S-log, that shouldn't be that difficult ... select all the s-log clips at one time. Right-click/Modify/Interpret Footage, set the S-log3.cine option or the "Override to Rec.709" option, whichever you need. Done in a batch.

 

There are times with the new color management tools where say one uses an Input LUT ... and program manager (and former color engineer) Francis Crossman says if you use an Input LUT in the color management options, you might want to also set the Override to ... option to Rec.709 if you're using a Rec.709/SDR sequence. Very similar to setting an input transform and working space transform in Resolve.

 

That said, they built an entirely new underlying color system for the Pr2022 builds. Caught even me totally off-guard having used the public beta. It seemed like it was just a couple new controls. But when bongo! every default behavior is different, and all log media that isn't "color managed" officially by codec in Premiere is seen as HLG ... I realized this is simply not the old Rec.709 underlying code at all.

 

Interestingly, even in person at NAB, when I asked staffers about this being a completely new color system, I got ... silence. Until I asked another question. They wouldn't tell me I was wrong ... which I know from long experience they have no trouble doing when I am wrong! ... but apparently, they couldn't tell me I was right.

 

Fascinating, that. Working for a large company must be an intriguing experience at times.

 

And at this time, we still have a number of isses with their brand spanking new color system that aren't working as they should be. And the way the new color management controls are spread through a context menu in the Project panel, a 'main men' selection in the Sequence Settings panel, and a right-click context menu again for the Scopes panel ... is just wrong.

 

We need a unified color management panel ... Color Management Panel

 

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 26, 2022 Jul 26, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks for reply. Yep, no problems with Adobe introducing new color management system but it needs to fit in with current users' workflow and be communicated as such and I've supported your call for a CMP. At the moment it adds a lot of work by the time you select the camera clips within the folders (sometimes thousands spread across 30 folders and it's no good just selecting the folders) of all the footage, then switch them back to Rec 709.

 

Re LUT 'favourites', if you look at the ECP in Lumetri effect in Basic Correction Input LUT, to the right there's a drop down menu with what I think of as favourite LUTS which, among those pre-loaded by Adobe, are those installed in the Lib/Application support/Adobe/Common/LUTs/Technical folder.

 

I'm not sure standard practice is to make basic corrections pre-LUT. Certainly with camera like Sony's FX6 shooting in Slog3 it's much more difficult and ultimately less successful doing things this way, whereas applying something like a Phantom LUT (developed for just this camera) at the Basic Corrections stage gets the best results straightaway. I've tested this again and again and never succeeded.

 

Anyway, it seems there's no fix for my problem of getting LUTs applied in the older version Premiere projects to automatically work in the newer version other than manually changing each clip.

 

Thanks again.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 27, 2022 Jul 27, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

There are some issues with getting the same image between the last version and this one, which I doubt could be totally fixed ... simply because the underlying color system is completely and TOTALLY different.

 

All color math before was based on Rec.709, meaning color primaries at sRGB, expected top white of 100 IRE, math in 32 bit float. The limited HDR capabilities was acheived by using what they referred to as "over-range Rec.709 data or values".

 

That whole system was incapable of transmogrification into a full modern color system, and had to go. The new one I've called "color space agnostic" as that's how it behaves. It can work in either Rec.709/sRGB or Rec.2100 in HLG and PQ. (How well it works is still under discussion of course ... )

 

However, getting the exact same visual behavior between the two systems, the previous one and this one, is probably quite difficult. Some of my colorist buds simply didn't think the Premiere team would be able to make a 'modern' color system. Well ... it seems they've got the basics of it functional, mostly ... sort of.

 

But taking projects that were worked in the last version into this one is not ... easy. Nor probably, wise. I do strongly suggest that if you have a project started in 2021 or earlier, work that project and any added work in that project in the 2021 version. Keep 2021installed for all that work. (Which is at least easier than working multiple versions of Resolve.)

 

And you're right, that there's a lot that isn't working yet in Pr2022, at least as well as it needs to. I expect at this point, we'll get a couple minor fixes between now and sometime in November, when the Adobe MAX event is scheduled. That's where they've been rolling out the "New" versions the last few years.

 

And we'll have to see if they get more out in Pr2023. Certainly hope so. At the moment, this is easily the diciest for color working since the CC versions began. And yes, I talked about that with the supers of the Adobe video apps at NAB ... and they clearly understood what I was talking about.

 

And right now, I really, really miss having SpeedGrade as an option!

 

A note on LUT deployment ... in Resolve, if you apply a LUT on a node, that is processed after all other color controls/effects applied in that node. And I know the grading trees used by a lot of colorists doing manual work where the transforms are either in the first node or frequently second.

 

If first node, they 'trim' any problem data such as crushed or clipped data in that node. Many prefer a "clean" node tree, so the only thing done in their second node is transforms, and the first node is there for trims if and as needed by the clips.

 

In several of the discussions I've been through, someone has had a problem in that they're using a color-managed setup (either DCM or Aces) and have troubles with clipped or crushed data in some of the clips. And at that point, the discussion is how to get that auto-managed action reversed or disabled for that clip so that they can trim the clip properly.

 

Why?

 

Nearly all tech LUTs are built around 'perfect' setups. Perfect setup for the camera: lighting color, brightness, and contrast range. "Field produced" clips may well not be so perfectly produced. And if one or more of the clips of a project don't fit quite sweetly within the expectations of the LUT, well ... bad things happen to some poor pixels.

 

Ergo, a need for trimming.

 

The media a lot of my colorist buds working in Resolve get tends to be pretty well produced in-cam, and they can do a lot of projects mostly working without many trims. Which is awesome if that's the media you're working with. Though even their projects typically have a real clunker or two or three.

 

A lot of the media I've seen used and discussed 'here' ... well, has perhaps a wider range of camera production values, shall we say? And really needs to be trimmed a lot more than one would hope.

 

And if the clips you get never need trims well ... congrats! You've got some awesome camera people working ahead of you!

 

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 29, 2022 Jul 29, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi and thanks for the thoughts above.

 

But I'm still stuck with a number of big projects that cannot be upgraded from PPro 2018 to either Prem 21 or 22 with the LUTs working - even if the LUTs are located in exactly the same place!

 

It's one of those situations where I could scream or weep at the hours, days and weeks ahead of re-color grading the footage. Why does it have to be like this?

 

I would love for someone to suggest any kind of fix.

 

I would also like this to be put to Premiere Pro developers.

 

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 29, 2022 Jul 29, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The underlying color system in Pr2022 is completely new, has nothing in common with 2021 and earlier. It had to be, to move forward and eventually properly work with HDR media.

 

But with a completely new color system and default behaviors, it doesn't work well with projects from earlier versions.

 

For those, keep 2020 or 2021 or both installed, and handle any reworked bits iof those versions in their original version.

 

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 30, 2022 Jul 30, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I've experimented with projects in v2021 but that doesn't work either, as mentioned before. So I guess I'll install 2020. Shame cos dialogue to text and other features of 22 are handy. But of a mess. 

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Jul 30, 2022 Jul 30, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Not working in 2021 is the puzzle, that had the same CM as 2020.

 

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Jul 30, 2022 Jul 30, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It gets crazier.

 

Installed PPro 2020 in the new Mac Studio OS Monterey, set up LUTs in exactly the same spot in Common folder in exactly the same order of LUTs, opened an ongoing project and the LUT has no effect. 

 

So when you open the Effect Control Panel for any clip with a LUT in Lumetri, it lists the LUT as being applied even though it has no effect and the picture remains the same washed out SLOG image. Oddly enough, the other settings in the Basic Corrections do continue to have an effect.

 

Looking at the second image below, while Basic Corrections input LUT reads Neutral Fx6, there's no effect but if you scroll down and select the same LUT from the drop down list, the LUT works. Arrrr, why?

 

I may be spending a lot of time on this, but fixing this single bug will save me from an extra week of work or more.

Screen Shot 2022-07-31 at 12.05.46 pm.pngScreen Shot 2022-07-31 at 12.06.37 pm.png

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Aug 03, 2022 Aug 03, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

No one has any ideas for how to fix this? So frustrating that the Input LUT shows the correct LUT - in this case Neutral Fx6 - but there's no effect on the picture. And as mentioned above, the LUTs are exactly in the right spot and can be used in Lumetri if chosen from the drop-down menu.

 

It's the same in Ppro 21 and 22, having upgraded from 2020.

 

Anyone? Adobe developers, testers?? At present, I'm having to move back and forth between old and new computers and different versions of Premiere and it's sending me crazy.

 

Thanks in advance

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 03, 2022 Aug 03, 2022

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

LATEST

I can't seem to replicate the problem. If I select a lut, it's applied.

 

Also, I would note ... one of the advantages of using the Lumetri panel is you don't ever actually 'apply' it to an effect ... that happens automatically. So you can work down a sequence without doing any drag/drop from the Effects panel to the timeline.

 

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines