Why is an "out" point added automatically?

Explorer ,
Aug 01, 2017 Aug 01, 2017

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Why is an "out" point added automatically to the end of my timeline when I put in an "in" point for an edit?

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

LEGEND , Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

This behavior is required/a result of "three-point editing" - where you only need to set 3 points to make an edit.

They grey bar that extends to infinity if you place an In-Mark (only) on a sequence is warning you that if you have a source with In and Out marked duration that is long enough, if you hit the overwrite button, it is going to erase all that material that falls within the marked duration of the source.

Conversely, if you have an Out-Mark only on the timeline, the grey extends to the be

...

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 01, 2017 Aug 01, 2017

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If you're putting something in then it has to have somewhere to go.

[EDIT - some unnecessary language was removed by a moderator as it did not relate to the question or help understanding]

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 01, 2017 Aug 01, 2017

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DHBCreative  wrote

Why is an "out" point added automatically to the end of my timeline when I put in an "in" point for an edit?

[edited]

I personally do not look at it as "added" as much as an "implied" IN point until you choose something else. If you choose IN point, you can't do anything with that alone... it needs an OUT point... so Premiere has indicated the default OUT point is the end of the timeline until you say otherwise.

It doesn't hurt anything for that to occur... it's implicit behavior that's sort of trying to help, to hedge a bet of sorts that you may like that maximal range default choice for OUT... and it allows you to immediately do things that relate to having an IN/OUT set without clarifying OUT further.

While your current intent may not be to use the end of the timeline for OUT, when a time comes where you want to mark everything from the current point to the end (in the timeline or source monitor), you will appreciate the brevity of being able to simply mark an IN point, knowing that Premiere immediately assumes the end is the OUT until you make it shorter. It assumes the maximal range for you. It's a choice the app designers made. It's better than not having any implied OUT point which would not hedge any bet thereby reducing the chances you'd be ready to go after a single "I" keystroke.

Note, this behavior is not only on the timeline, you can count on it in the source monitor as well... examples of using implied end as OUT...

Examples...

  • You want to lift or extract everything from the current position to the end of the timeline... so you set and IN and you do the lift/extract. No need for you to specify an OUT because Premiere helped you with implicit behavior. If you don't want that, no problem, just specify your desired OUT point... there's no harm... Premiere is just potentially saving you from settting "O" in case you ever want the end to OUT. If you don't want end as OUT, just set OUT to where you want it... until such time, Premiere will indicate OUT is end with the highlight to the end which clearly tells you that's the range until you shorten it or use it as is.
  • You want to insert the source monitor clip from the current position to the end, skipping a beginning that has some setup discussion which you want to omit... you press "I" and choose Insert to insert from the current pos to the end of the source monitor.
  • You made changes to the timeline and want to export everything from the current position to the end... so you press "I" and CTRL-M and export defaults to a range of IN-to-OUT so you're good to go. Premiere could require you to go to the end and press O but it's defaulting to automatically choosing the maximum position, the end, as the OUT point until you choose something before that ... or simply go with that as a the default.

Think of it as the way the application behaves as a best effort which is better than doing nothing... it could behave by doing nothing by default for OUT but that doesn't offer any chance to make use of a single keystroke for both IN/OUT to be set. It's not that the default OUT will always make sense, but it could make sense and that's better than nothing, so the app designers decided end as OUT by default, and I personally agree. They could have prevented IN/OUT operations until you explicitly specified OUT... there's nothing to stop that... but it's a poorer choice as it doesn't hedge bets on behavior so is less nimble in that regard. You'd be surprised how much you'll come to expect end as a default OUT... it's more useful than you think as you do more with Premiere. It's also a minor thing too... meaning if you never find value in that, it's really no harm/foul... it's just the way it behaves by default which is better than doing nothing.

I mean Premiere could default to the end of the current clip (instead of the timeline)... but it doesn't... there's likely historical reasons for that.

I like that it defaults that way... it sort to me means that Premiere is saying to me "I'll assume you want to select everything from the current position to the end until you select less than that" and for cases where you want that default behavior, it saves you a keystroke or two.

So it's default behavior that, to me, makes logical sense, as well as hedging to try to be smart as I work with it to save me keystrokes.. to give me something to work with until I choose something less.

Keep in mind that default behavior isn't always necessarily something that's useful to you... it's the notion that attempting to choose something is better than forcing you to always have to select OUT which will always be useful until you use two keystrokes along probably other mouse clicking etc. Also, an default off end as OUT makes sense for a number of situations... it's deemed a good choice for a default.

Hopefully that makes sense... maybe others know the history on it but that's how I see it and that works for me!

By the way, your question gives rise to an interesting feature suggestion... allowing a user to select a pref to choose the desired default... end of timeline or clip in SM, always end of clip, nothing etc. My guess is it would be a low pri consideration given all of the churn for more important features but it's interesting to consider.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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Why is an "out" point added automatically to the end of my timeline when I put in an "in" point for an edit?

It isn't for me.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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Nor for me.

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Advocate ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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It is not.

On the timeline:

You see the in "{" & the gray go across forever with no out. If you have an out you will have the "}" icon to show the out is set.

If you are just setting the in point on the timeline you can just use the playhead.

On the clip:

You see the in "{" & the gray go across to the media out. On the clip you can only go from the media start to the media end. If you do not have the video In or video out set it will use the media start and the media end.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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I think this: if no in or out is "set," then it is the media/sequence start stop, and NO in or out point symbol is seen - but  you CAN click on "go to" in or out point and it will go to the beginning or end. Because without an in point set and without an end point set you won't see what is not set. But it functions as if it IS there. And I suspect that the program actually functions with an implied in point set.

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LEGEND ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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This behavior is required/a result of "three-point editing" - where you only need to set 3 points to make an edit.

They grey bar that extends to infinity if you place an In-Mark (only) on a sequence is warning you that if you have a source with In and Out marked duration that is long enough, if you hit the overwrite button, it is going to erase all that material that falls within the marked duration of the source.

Conversely, if you have an Out-Mark only on the timeline, the grey extends to the beginning of the timeline as a warning that everything earlier in the timeline is about to be erased based on the In-Out duration of the source.

It's an alert that all that timeline space is eligible to be erased. In the earliest days of non-linear editing, all edits required 4 points, an In and Out on the source and an In and Out on the timeline, so this wasn't an issue.

MTD

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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Jim_Simon  wrote

Why is an "out" point added automatically to the end of my timeline when I put in an "in" point for an edit?

It isn't for me.

Great observation... you are right that an actual OUT point isn't set... but the implicit OUT point is the end of the timeline. IOW, any operations you perform until explicitly setting an OUT point will behave as if you have specified an OUT point. That default behavior can allow you, in some cases, to avoid extra keystrokes. Without it, you'd be forced to set an IN/OUT point before doing any operations requiring it.

From the docs Using the Source Program Monitors in Premiere Pro :

...

When no In point is set, the starting time of the clip or of the sequence is substituted. When no Out point is set, the Source Monitor uses the ending time of the clip to calculate duration.

...

So without setting an explicit OUT point the behavior is always as if the OUT point has been set to the maximal possibility, the end of the timeline, and the UI reflects this implicit behavior. In my testing, editing doesn't change... it behaves as if the OUT point had been implicitly set to the maximal possibility.

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Meg+The+Dog  wrote

This behavior is required/a result of "three-point editing" - where you only need to set 3 points to make an edit.

They grey bar that extends to infinity if you place an In-Mark (only) on a sequence is warning you that if you have a source with In and Out marked duration that is long enough, if you hit the overwrite button, it is going to erase all that material that falls within the marked duration of the source.

Conversely, if you have an Out-Mark only on the timeline, the grey extends to the beginning of the timeline as a warning that everything earlier in the timeline is about to be erased based on the In-Out duration of the source.

It's an alert that all that timeline space is eligible to be erased. In the earliest days of non-linear editing, all edits required 4 points, an In and Out on the source and an In and Out on the timeline, so this wasn't an issue.

MTD

MTD, I'm curious... is this a historically known thing about the arrival of 3-point editing and this default behavior, or is this what you're inferring given experience and interpretation of the implementation as you see it? It's not highly critical beyond possibly simplification... and my learning the concrete skinny behind it.

The way I see it (as someone who has not been a long time employed video editor)... it's really simple... when either an IN or OUT is set, the implicit setting of the other non-set point is that of the maximum range possible, either the start/end of a sequence/clip. It seems that simple. It doesn't seem to really go beyond that... and the UI representation of things to me doesn't come off as so much a warning as just showing that default.

The reason I see it this way is because the visual UI representation isn't always a "warning" of overwrite... two things there... one is that not all operations are overwrite, and the second is that this behavior extends to source monitor which is never overwritten... therefore the UI behavior in the timeline seems to do nothing but indicate the implied default. I'm wondering if it specifically shows a range beyond the last clip for some historical reason to truly indicate infinity or some such.

Granted... the source monitor doesn't show beyond the clip hosted there whereas, on the timeline, there is a sense of "infinity" because of empty space which is highlighted... I was thinking that was just a consequence of what the developers had done to show an implied default, not a sense of infinity ... just that OUT is wherever the last item is on the timeline... I see that as "your implicit OUT is the end of the last clip until you choose something for OUT specifically." But even though, there isn't a warning because one can do so much beyond overwriting with that implicit default.

That's why it seems simpler to refer to the behavior as, when you set IN or OUT, if you don't set the other, the program infers a default of the maximum possible and the UI reflects this for both source monitor and the timeline. While it seems simpler, I have a hunch I'm missing something a long time video editor knows about this... or using the NLE apps. (?)

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Enthusiast ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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https://forums.adobe.com/people/Meg+The+Dog  wrote

...They grey bar that extends to infinity if you place an In-Mark (only) on a sequence is warning you that if you have a source with In and Out marked duration that is long enough, if you hit the overwrite button, it is going to erase all that material that falls within the marked duration of the source....

MTD

I think I see the wisdom of "infinity" now... so the implicit/default behavior is not specifically identical to setting OUT at the end of the last clip in the timeline... it is different. I can easily see that when comparing the following (which tied to what you are outlining)...

  • If I set an IN/OUT in the source monitor (SM) and set an IN point and an OUT point in the timeline, where the OUT point is the end of the last clip on the timeline, and the IN point is before that OUT point but overall the range is smaller than the IN/OUT range in SM, an insert or overwrite will cause Premiere to prompt me to clarify how the operation should be resolved.
  • If I do the same as the prior bullet, but only set the IN point (no OUT point is set), I will not be prompted by Premiere to resolve anything because it assumes the OUT point is infinity... meaning it will fit any size range... therefore one will not be prompted to resolve anything as the timeline IN-to-OUT range is deemed infinity large so can hold any size SM insert/overwrite.

Feel free to augment/correct but thanks... that makes more sense now.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Aug 02, 2017 Aug 02, 2017

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There is no out point BUT if you hit shift+O which means Go To Out the playhead will park itself on the last frame of the last clip.

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New Here ,
Jun 16, 2020 Jun 16, 2020

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Just because this was answered "correctly" doesn't mean this is right or in need of change. It's very easy to accidentally erase your entire timeline with the misstroke of a key. So many times I've been zoomed in editing away only to zoom back out again and I've lost the rest of my timeline. I'd like the ability to turn this off and return to "the bad old days of 4 point editing" and now consider this thread reopened. 

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LEGEND ,
Jun 16, 2020 Jun 16, 2020

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New Here ,
Jun 16, 2020 Jun 16, 2020

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Community Beginner ,
Jun 07, 2022 Jun 07, 2022

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Yeah, this is a terrible "feature". Three-point editing is... three points. If I enter an IN and an OUT in my source window, there is no need for Premiere to create an obsolete out point on the timeline, because I already specified the length in my source window. All I want is in in point on the timeline, no need for Premiere to "suggest" otherwise.

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