Workflow for ProRes Raw/Sony A7SIII?

Report · May 26, 2022

Not sure how to begin asking, but an exhaustive search through the internet has not turned up the answers that I was hoping to find, unless I'm too silly to understand what I'm reading and seeing.

I'm planning on shooting a project in ProRes Raw but can only edit on a PC with Premiere. I was wondering what the best workflow is for treating the footage when it comes in? What should my sequence settings be? What exactly am I doing when I switch the color space in the effects control tab? And, other than that, what sorts of questions should I be asking myself before I commit fully to the idea?

There are tutorials for how the footage can be manipulated, but no one seems to be talking about what is actually happening to the footage, and what settings I can change to take the most advantage of it (i.e. what should my working color space be? What should I set my preview codec settings to, to take advantage of Premiere's smart rendering features?)

Report · May 26, 2022

Clip color management is in the project panel, Modify/Interpret Footage dialog. In the clip CM settings you can select an input LUT or space, and also use either the "color space from file" option or the "Override" option to set what you want for working space for the clip.

Then in Sequence settings, you need to set whether you want the sequence to be Rec.709, HLG, or PQ.

Neil

Report · May 27, 2022

Why would I use the Clip Color Management (which is currently grayed out for me) over the options titled "PRORES RAW Source Settings" in the "Effect Controls" panel? On that note, why is it greyed out? And, what is happening to the clip when I change the color space, and why aren't those changes being reflected when I bring it in the timeline? For reference, here are pictures of the clips. The one on the left is what the source clip looks like with the PRORES RAW Source Settings are adjusted to Exposure: 1.0 and Color Space set to "S-Gamut3.Cine/S-Log3". The second is the clip in the timeline with my Working Color Space set to "Rec. 2100 HLG".

Report · Oct 16, 2022

Adobe has some great tutorials for Premiere but I can't find any for specifically working with importing ProResRAW and how to adjust settings. I've just started using it and both shooting it as well as the grading process is quite a bit more complicated and detailed than using the standard codecs. It would be really great if Adobe could come up with a tutorial video detailing what you're describing here. I'm looking for information on how to do this in YouTube and it's pretty scant.

Report · Oct 16, 2022

The lack of ProRes RAW training even out on the web is pretty scant because realistically ProRes RAW is "pretty scant". Resolve won't use it al all. So Premiere is doing something there that Resolve simply can't do.

And yea, it's REAL frustrating when there's so little working information on something like this. I'm trying to find out about working with this myself.

So posting what you're shooting it on, how you're trying to process it, and the results, including failures ... would be useful.

Neil

Report · May 26, 2022

Did you test out the camera to see if Pro Res will yield the best results? I think most people use S-log to get the most amount of dynamic range. I am not sure what the best option would be since I do not have that camera.

Report · May 27, 2022

This is actually what I'm in the process of doing right now. Since I'm editing this project and my collaborator wants to shoot in ProRes RAW, I am trying to figure out the best way to prep the footage with these tests so I don't run into any issues when I start to export for color, VFX, mastering, etc.

Report · May 27, 2022

From hearing colorists talk of this, S-log3.cine and ProRes RAW is mostly a tossup for quality. Too close to note, when you've got say a Sony shooting this, an Arri, and something else involved in a job.

The bigger part is what you're testing ... how it works for your workflow. Resolve for instance doesn't do Pr-Raw so for totally Resolve based colorists, the S-log3.cine is 'easier'. The ProRes RAW adds a step in getting it 'converted'.

For others, with a way to handle the ProResRAW easily, they don't have any troubles either way. Premiere's ProResRAW handling is semi-primitive but doable as far as I've seen.

Neil

Report · May 27, 2022

Is there any resource I can read or video that breaks down the process more comprehensively? I'm afraid my questions aren't being answered, or I'm not doing a very good job of asking them. Did you see the pictures I posted above, for instance? Why is that happening?

And how can I set up the project so I don't make mine or the colorist's process hell as we work on the project? What works for my workflow as it stands might not work for the ProRes RAW workflow because of the different codec and equipment involved (i.e. my normal workflow usually involves prepping footage on a PC for DNxHR HQX in Premiere using a FUJI X-T3 -- completely different from a Sony A7SIII and ProRes Raw). Any recommendations for the way to import the footage, treat it correctly, edit it, and then export for further editing would be much appreciated.

Report · May 27, 2022

Unfortunately, their documentation on this is rather ... non-findable, if it exists.

Their new CM system relies on the user setting the color space in the project panel's Modify/Interpret Footage panel. But it's not clear that for most media it's a two-step process.

You need to set an Input ... and the working/output.

The Input is of course from that Input selection at the top of the CM controls section. And not all media has a current proper "input" option ... they're working on building that out. Sony S-log3.cine finally has some, and there's more stuff in the options in the public beta version.

Next, you need to use either the option to use the color space 'seen' from the file, or the bottom option, to set an Override to... action. That set's your working/export color space.

Next, that all needs to match what you set for CM in the Sequence settings. For an HLG sequence, you'd need both an HLG option selected in the CM of the Mod/Int options and in the Sequence settings.

Plus of course, if you are exporting in HLG/PQ, you would need to start the process with a preset that has HLG or PQ in the preset name.

I've got a FAQ/discussion on color correction and working in HDR that I posted here a couple days ago that covers the setup for working an HDR project and what controls in Lumetri to use, including the scopes.

If you're working an SDR/Rec.709 timeline, similar thing. The Mod/Int CM section needs to have an Input and then be set to 'go' to Rec.709.

And your sequence needs to have Rec.709 set for the CM for the sequence.

And you need to use the 'regular' SDR/Rec,709 presets as the starting point for exports.

Neil

Report · May 27, 2022

Neil, thank you for your patience, and my apologies for the incessant questioning. I'll be moving this conversation to a new post in this same thread so as not to continue sending notification emails to Andy 1968.

Report · May 30, 2022

I looked at the images you posted. Your images look like dull RAW video files. You have to apply a LUT or color grade the video files. Shooting in Pro Res RAW might prove to be more of a pain in the buttocks more than anything else. I don't shot in RAW. I shot with a color profile. I want Sony to make use of it's built in noise reduction and sharpening. A lot of cameras apply a slight amount of noise reduction and sharpening. In RAW the filters are usually not applied. I would test out the camera and see what method looks best and work the best. You should connect your camera to a 4K TV to see what the image looks like straight out of the camera and see if it looks the same in Premiere Pro. You can get 3rd party hardware for $115.00 that might be helpful. I posed a video link below.

Report · May 30, 2022

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your response. They are dull RAW files without LUTS, but my issue was the difference in exposure -- I'm not sure if that comes across on your monitor, given the differences in color and brightness from monitor to monitor, etc. Both of the images are sourced from the same clip, with the color space and exposure in the effect controls panels being the same, but when I drop the clip into the sequence, the image is suddenly half a stop darker, despite the same coloring effects.

When I set the sequence color space from Rec 2021 HLG to Rec 709, the image from the source montior and the image from the program monitor match in terms of exposure. My question is, why? If PRORES RAW is HLG footage (and tell me if it isn't), why aren't the changes I make to the clip when I prep it (changing the color space and exposure before putting it into the timeline) being reflected when I put it into a timeline configured for HLG? Why is it darker in the timeline than it is in the source monitor even though the effects are the same?

Report · May 30, 2022

Premiere Pro is 100% color accurate as seen in my prior video link. What the video looks like using an iMac and iMovie or even Premiere Pro may not be accurate. There are several settings in Premiere Pro that must be setup 100% correct as well as a few settings for the graphics card. Your TV does not have all of that to deal with. Cameras have an HDMI output for a reason. When you connect your camera to a TV the video clip will look the same when connected to the same TV using Premiere Pro and 3rd party hardware. You cannot do better than that. Even if everything is setup 100% correct on your system when you export your video and play it back on YouTube, Quicklime or OBS studio it might look a tad bit different. The video link below will demonstrate how to compensate for that. Is your final projecting going to be broadcasted or played in a digital cinema?

Report · May 27, 2022

@R Neil Haugen

Their new CM system relies on the user setting the color space in the project panel's Modify/Interpret Footage panel. But it's not clear that for most media it's a two-step process.

Currently, this option is greyed out and I do not have any way of accessing it. When I right click on one of the clips and go to "Modify>Interpret Footage" I am unable to select the "Color Managment" control section. I do have "Display Color Management (requires GPU acceleration)" checked off in my General Preferences options though. Do you know how to access that option, or what things I have to manipulate in order to access it?

Furthermore, why would I use "Modify>Interpret Footage>Color Management" as opposed to the "PRORES RAW Source Settings" option to set the color space and exposure?

The Input is of course from that Input selection at the top of the CM controls section. And not all media has a current proper "input" option ... they're working on building that out. Sony S-log3.cine finally has some, and there's more stuff in the options in the public beta version.

Next, you need to use either the option to use the color space 'seen' from the file, or the bottom option, to set an Override to... action. That set's your working/export color space.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're explaining in this portion. Given the specs I just explained, what color space is seen from the file? For instance, I know that DNxHR HQX operates in the standard Rec.709 color space. Is ProRes RAW automatically meant to go into the Rec.2020 HLG color space? Will it make more sense when the option to change it is not greyed out?

I can't ask questions about the rest since they depend so heavily upon the first set of answers.

Report · May 27, 2022

That's greyed out when they don't have a CM setting for that media ...

The Input is of course from that Input selection at the top of the CM controls section. And not all media has a current proper "input" option ... they're working on building that out. Sony S-log3.cine finally has some, and there's more stuff in the options in the public beta version.

That's what I'm talking about here ... not all media has a current input option, and apparently ProRes RAW is in that category.

I haven't worked with any P-Res RAW for a couple builds, and so can't comment on the exact process. I won't be back to the shop until Wednesday either so I can't test.

And some log and raw formats are simply treated as HLG by Premiere at this time. If it's one you can't modify, that's ... a right royal pain.

Neil

Report · May 28, 2022

Thank you for all your help up until this point. It is greatly appreciated. Hopefully Premiere can build out these functions more fully in the future.