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0-255 16-235

New Here ,
May 20, 2019

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Hi,

I am shooting Gh5 video at 0-255. I am exporting edits using Adobe Media Encoder in h.264.

All my exports are for some reason getting converted to 16-235.

Is it a problem that my footage is going from 0-255 to 16-235?  Will I lose data?

If so is there any AME option to export h.264 full colour range?

Thanks.

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0-255 16-235

New Here ,
May 20, 2019

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Hi,

I am shooting Gh5 video at 0-255. I am exporting edits using Adobe Media Encoder in h.264.

All my exports are for some reason getting converted to 16-235.

Is it a problem that my footage is going from 0-255 to 16-235?  Will I lose data?

If so is there any AME option to export h.264 full colour range?

Thanks.

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May 20, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 20, 2019

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Edit: h.264

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May 20, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 20, 2019

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  wrote

Edit: h.264

I fixed it in your original post.

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May 20, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 20, 2019

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The standard for all but a few image-sequence or 4/4/4/4 format/codec options is written as 16-235, which is the general standard for Rec.709 material. So Pr, which is tightly wired into "broadcast standards" exports most Rec.709 format/codec options in the "appropriate" 16-235 range.

No, you're not losing data. It's a "mapping" thing, not actually changing data.

The weird thing of all this is the way they chose to show the monitor scaling for the Lumetri scopes, along the right side. You have three options ... 8 bit, Float, and HDR. Set the 8 bit option, the right-side scale for most things shows 0-255 ... which isn't showing the signal level, but think of it as a monitor mapping level.

Change your scope to the Waveform in either YC variant, all of a sudden that right-side scale for most Rec.709 media is showing 16-235. Which is for that media the correct signal level of the file.

Neil

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May 20, 2019 0
New Here ,
May 21, 2019

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Hi Neil thank you for your reply genuinely, it's incredibly detailed so forgive me from not being able to take it all in but you did say there was no data loss which is good, however since AME defaults to exporting 16-235 should I just shoot my videos in 16-235?

I can't find any AME option to export h.264 at 0-255 which is annoying because the conversion washes out my videos reducing contrast and saturation.

I intend to upload to YouTube/Vimeo.

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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Is hard to find the info you want on the internet. Most articles about Ultra HD, Wide Color Gamut, Rec 709 vs. Rec 2020, etc., give some information about specific things, but then you usually have to keep digging for the specific info you want.

Your 16-235 is based on 8 bit 'broadcast' standard ( 709) WHEN TV was a cathode ray tube. Before flat screens and before changes to color spaces ( now you can see more colors on modern flat screens via different methods … some via LED types of illumination, some are now 10 bit, etc. etc. ). It gets complicated. I don't get it either cause things are changing so fast.

In general, to shoot stills with your camera you would use the FULL setting ( 0-255 ).  And shooting video you would use LIMITED.

The thing is... print ( photo printing ) has more color shades or 'transitions' than a TV, hence you have FULL (probably using Adobe RGB).

The 0-255 ( with safety marks of 16-235 ) is an old IRE scale.  It really doesn't apply in reality anymore except it's the lowest common denominator for being able to deliver stuff to the majority of consumers with extremely different types of TV sets.

So to be safe you should just shoot limited ( 16-235 ).

However, the tricky part for you is now enhanced by the fact you are uploading to you tube and vimeo, which are displayed via internet on users computer screens... which are 0-255 ( they are not TV's ).  That means you can in fact shoot FULL and people will be able to see it OK.  The reason 16-235 was used is because the old CRT TV's HATED bright white and closed blacks. 0 = closed black, 255 = very white.

Computer monitors don't mind those extremes of black and white.

If you REALLY want to see what's going on (cause you are editing on a computer screen) is to

a) use a color calibrated monitor and set it to what you want ( probably rec 709 gamma 2.4 for most stuff -- film projection is different).

b) hook up a good video monitor via SDI card like BM 4k extreme or whatever it's called ) which goes into a PCI-E x8 slot.

Now use the video as your reference monitor along with your calibrated primary monitor...and you'll see pretty much the same thing that you upload ( if you cross your fingers ).

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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P.S.

Even though you have calibrated to, say, rec 709, you use the scopes and you can 'see' what they tell you alongside what you 'see' on your monitor (your video or film ). The scopes are just a guide, as it's your eyeball and your preference that makes the final decision where to put your hottest highlights and your deepest blacks ...and your midtones, etc...

In other words, you are NOT limited to stay within the bounds of the your calibration according to the scopes telling you where stuff is at.

As far as shooting... is your choice. Limited to be safe, full to show on internet would be my guess.  If you shoot full and calibrate rec709 you're not losing anything ...it's just kinda a 'standard' so everyone's on the same page more or less.

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May 21, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 21, 2019

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Shooting 16-235 or 0-255 should not change any detail/tonal capture unless the camera is designed screwy. Those are a MAPPING of the image data. Pro video rigs that shoot in Rec.709 do NOT shoot 0-255. They're all 'limited' unless recording to a couple 4/4/4/4 formats ... which are so freaking huge in file size I don't think anyone actually uses them in-camera. Pro colorists work in limited in Rec.709 ... period. 8-bit/10-bit doesn't matter. Rec.709 in all but a few specific 4/4/4/4 and uncompressed format/codec options IS 16-235 (8-bit) or 64-940 (10-bit).

In any decent system, you will see 0-255 media and 16-235 "inhabiting" the same pixel range.

If you're having an issue with tonal variations inside of Pr compared to outside Pr on your computer, you've got a rig NOT set up for working with Pr and pro-broadcast media. Premiere is built for pro broadcast standards ... color space of video sRGB, Rec.709 profile including a gamma of 2.4 and brightness of 100 nits. If your OS and monitors are carefully set up for that, all is fine.

AND ... off your computer, your work will look the same as pro-produced material does on whatever computer/screen combo it is viewed on.

Most computers and devices are set up in such odd and strange ways, they do NOT follow any recognized standard in how they display media. It's really the Wild Wild West out "there" ... and you have no freaking control whatever.

But then, neither does any pro colorist working to broadcast standards.

All you can do ... like they do ... is set your system to a standard that is used by the main pro media producers. Match your media to that standard. Follow the scopes and the eyes ... learn how the scopes are great reference data, your eyes a master of only relative data. Use the appropriate "instrument" for judging. On a carefully thought out and built-by-choice system.

And let your media be seen as it will, as any pro colorist does. You will NEVER see any movie or TV show exactly how it was viewed by the colorist. Hopefully, close enough at least at times the colorist won't feel too much pain.

There is no Exact Standard available across all devices and platforms and players.

Neil

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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There seems to be a lot of room for discussion about this stuff, and Neil is correct in my opinion, re: broadcast standards. He is also a very accomplished Still photographer who has more than 40 years experience shooting very high quality photographs with cameras that are high end ( 35mm, 6x7, 4x5, 8x10, etc.) Both black and white and color !  He is very very into color and learning everything about film in general.

Thank you Neil !

With regard to what clipping occurs when shooting with a professional digital film camera ( which most of us cannot afford with a full assortment of prime cine lenses, which means most people ( including the producers of AVENGERS THE LAST STAND ) have to rent them for the photography portion of the production .  Otherwise you would have to be a moron to buy all that stuff for one movie production.

Now, the question is, are we dealing with projection ( digital film ) or broadcast standard ( based on old CRT TV standards ).

That's an interesting question when dealing with new technology of VIEWING via HD, UHD, XUHD, WCG, 4K, 8K and 8 bit 10 bit, and all the rest of the stuff going on. As described re: "the wild west ".

It's not REALLY the wild west, and beyond making something linear vs. log for the purpose of editing, the spaces involved are quite adjustable BEYOND broadcast ( dinosaur ) standards.

Adobe has NO clue what that is and will probably never be able to re-write ( from the bottom up ) the whole structure of dealing with color.

Although I admire the desire to sell adobe despite the stupid rec 709 clipping that is inherent in that program, I would love to sit down and actually SHOOT something with a modern professional DIGITAL FILM CAMERA and compare notes about the accuracy and handling of that material … even though the camera may be 'screwy'.

hehe... What was it Jim said the other day ??  He likes to work with ACES in resolve as a rule ? Even though his exports are rec709 mostly ??

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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=========

If you're having an issue with tonal variations inside of Pr compared to outside Pr on your computer, you've got a rig NOT set up for working with Pr and pro-broadcast media. Premiere is built for pro broadcast standards ... color space of video sRGB, Rec.709 profile including a gamma of 2.4 and brightness of 100 nits. If your OS and monitors are carefully set up for that, all is fine.

========

bottom line... adobe can help you if you are shooting for old TV standard rec 709 for broadcast. If you are shooting for web streaming or projection or anything else, you are out of luck.

It ONLY gives you 16-236 based on old 8 bit conversion of IRE from old CRT TV's.  It imports stuff that way and it exports stuff that way, no matter what.

Even if you try to export something with a wider gamut and so on... it will clip it and deny you the product.

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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It ONLY gives you 16-235

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May 21, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 21, 2019

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Actually, I've spent hours with an Adobe color engineer over the last couple months dealing with Pr and color management/handling. More than an hour on one phone call, another hour over a BlueJeans connection between our computers, many emails/texts, and hours in person at NAB. Then more emails/texts since. I gave a presentation on this in the Flanders/MixingLight booth at NAB, and I have a tutorial coming out in the next few days over at mixinglight.com on this, all the details of color management/handling from SDR/Rec.709 through HDR.

Premiere uses a Rec.709 "pipeline" but works easily enough with nearly all pro formats out there. Up through HDR, ​if ​you have the gear to work HDR needed by Premiere. It works with HDR media as "over-range Rec.709" clear to 10,000 nits. Not that anything currently can display that, but ... it is The Standard for the top right now. All HDR is run as Rec.2020 within Pr.

The RED, Arri, Sony, BlackMagic and other cameras, when using some proprietary RAW or Log formats, all have settings in-cam that can be adjusted in post-processing. For that media, Premiere uses the Master Clip options to allow the maker's controls to be accessed with Premiere.MasterClip Controls.PNG

This is a RED demo media clip, for example. You have the full range of controls for 'normalizing' that media into Pr's Rec.709 working space. I see this exactly the same on my fully​calibrated ​and profiled!​ monitor as I do when I open the clip in Resolve 15 Studio's Color tab in RCM color managed mode.

Premiere takes any imported file, at whatever bit-dept it is at, converts to Rec.709 32-bit float for all internal processing. Then at the far end, converts from 32-bit float into the range and bit-depth of whatever media format/codec you've chosen for your export, at that format/codec's standards for range/bit-depth and all.

And if you look at the right-side scales of the scopes in that image .... the RGB Parade is showing 0-255, while the Waveform YC is showing 16-235. The two "YC" forms of the Waveform scope show limited-range media with the correct mapping to numbers for 8 bit media, so you need to realize that if the clip is 10-bit the 16 is really 64 and the 235 is really 940, though the numbers of the scale don't change.

The RGB Parade is showing essentially a "monitor mapping" of the media signal to the monitor space. Which in Pr's internal monitors is assumed to be video sRGB/Rec.709/gamma-2.4/100 nits. 16-235 "limited range" is always shown full 0-255 in any properly managed player. And all colorists I know scoff at the concept of handling Rec.709 media in "full data range" as something only the great unwashed would think of doing. Which is why so many look at the RGB Parade scale and conclude Premiere is not handling the media correctly. Which, in reality, it is. They just use screwy numbers on ​some​ of the scope scales.

The left-side scope scales show the nits/IRE numbers, btw.

If you've got a monitor profile in the OS set to something else, you can always try the "Enable Display Color Management" option. However ... that is an attempt to attain a ​perceptual​ match between the Rec.709/etc. of Pr's internal pipeline to the monitor as set in the ICC profile the OS shows for the monitor. Depending on a number of things ... including how tightly you have your monitored calibrated ​and checked by profiling!​ ... it may or may not show a fairly accurate view of your media in another color space.

You need to test that thoroughly to see if you get results that are what you'd expect.

Neil

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May 21, 2019 0
New Here ,
Sep 03, 2020

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==========   

...... I have a tutorial coming out in the next few days over at mixinglight.com on this, all the details of color management/handling from SDR/Rec.709 through HDR.

==========

(R_Neil_Haugen)

 

Thanks for your input on this subject Neil, very informative.  Did the above tutorial ever get published? I've looked over at mixinglight.com and found a couple of your tutorials but couldn't find this specific subject...... (I may be completely missing it !) 

 

Thanks,

 

neil

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Sep 03, 2020 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 03, 2020

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This was it ...

 

How Do You Finish at the Highest Possible Quality in Premiere Pro CC?

 

They found it long enough (yea, it is ... ) they wanted to split it into two sections. The first, on general CM in Premiere, is this one ... and it's free for all outside their paywall. The other section on HDR and especially dealing with the Mac situation is for members only.

 

But then, they've changed the software enough that the HDR stuff in that is out of date and Mac has changed their ColorSync utility (again ... ) though not brought it into line with normal pro standards. Among other things, if a QT file has a particular tag, Apple will actually mostly sort of treat it appropriately.

 

In another thread yesterday, I answered a bit about how to get Resolve to add that tag ... which is in the Deliver page, use both the Rec709 option and for color space, the Rec709-A ... depending on how you have the Resolve setting for using/not using the Mac ICC profiles. Here's the link to that post ...

 

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro/footage-appears-darker-after-imported-into-premiere-pro/...

 

There's an article I've linked to in there on the Mac option "for use in things bound for the internet" ...

 

https://www.thepostprocess.com/2020/07/17/color-on-mac-displays-from-davinci-resolve-to-the-internet...

 

As noted in the other thread, I asked this on the MixingLight member's Slack, and got a fast LONG discussion going. Basically, no one of the many colorists popping in would use the Rec709-A color-space/tag on any media for normal broadcast/streaming work. Period. It's only for web stuff to try and get around the Macs and some other odd things.

 

And as far as Premiere's HDR options, here's the most recently updated FAQ for this forum I made a couple months back.

FAQ: Setting up for HDR work in Premiere 2020

 

They do have a few more options in the public beta, so this will be changing again sometime over the next few months.

 

Neil

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Sep 03, 2020 0
New Here ,
Sep 04, 2020

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Thansk Neil, I had spotted the article about finishing at highest quality, just didn't realise thet was the one you were referring to.

 

 

 

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Sep 04, 2020 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
Sep 04, 2020

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Yea, the title they chose wasn't to me as obviously linked to the content ... ah well!  😉

 

Neil

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Sep 04, 2020 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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==========

I gave a presentation on this in the Flanders/MixingLight booth at NAB, and I have a tutorial coming out in the next few days over at mixinglight.com on this, all the details of color management/handling from SDR/Rec.709 through HDR.

===========

do you stand to gain money wise by promoting your tutorial(s) and the promotion of Adobe editing in general ?

In other words, are you selling the product and your own involvement in order to make money ?

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May 21, 2019 0
Guide ,
May 21, 2019

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And when you say, all the pro cameras ( alexa, red, Panavision, etc. ) can be imported properly to PPro with attention to the in camera settings .. do you mean a look applied to an SDI output file or are you talking about the log files etc. ???

After all, some of those cameras shoot for movie screens... and you're saying PPro allows you to adjust it's color space to allow for that representation ???

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May 21, 2019 0
Adobe Community Professional ,
May 21, 2019

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The tutorials at mixinglight.com I reference will be outside the paywall for all to view freely. "Adobe" will even link to them as soon as they're up. They've given amazing tech support for this effort, all of it intentionally to get the information out. And much of what I cover in the two parts I'm recording is not actually covered together, let alone at all for some of it, in any Adobe documentation.

For most serious users pro or amateur, it would be useful to watch them. Both presentations I gave at NAB had colorists scribbling data furiously.

For anyone who knows much of my postings here and elsewhere, one thing I am very consistent on: Adobe's product manuals and documentation suck big time. Meaning so much of what people "know" ... even experienced pros ... about how Premiere works for this instance is pure speculation, and often way off from what actually happens within the app.

Premiere is regularly used to cut major features, in the US and elsewhere. With some of those productions using a slightly different 'version' of Premiere, as they need a ton more metadata capabilities. The basic tools are the same in both versions, it's mainly the metadata stuff in the "Hollywood" version that has been juiced up. And over time, those extra meta capabilities are coming into the "public" Premiere.

If you can work in Pr up to the max of 10,000 nits with the right gear ... yea, you can cut anything in it. You need to know how to "normalize" the file for Pr, just like you would need to know how to work with any particular media in Avid or Resolve or whatever. And how to set up your system.

Neil

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May 21, 2019 1