Highlighted

Adobe Premiere and Colour Gamut limited to BT.709

Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Is it true that if I import video footage shot in a wider colour gamut the BT.709 (such as S-Gamut, S-Gamut3 or S-Gamut3.Cine) , Adobe Premiere will clip the wider colour space to BT.709?
While doing some research I found that if I import footage into Adobe Premiere and drop it in a timeline and if I do any colour grading inside Premiere using the lumetri colour, the colour space will be reduced to BT.709. This made me worry because I shot footage with the Atomos Shogun Inferno and the Sony FS700R which allows to record Sony RAW. When recording I set the Gamut in the Atomos Shogun Inferno to S-Gamut. I know should had use a smaller colour space such S-Gamut3.Cine. But I used what was set by default in the Atomos Recorder. I was planing to do the editing and the colour grading in Premiere CC 2018. But then I read some people saying that if I do grading inside premiere, Adobe Premiere will convert the orignal  colour space to a reduced BT.709.

If this is true, Adobe Premiere is not recommended at all if you want to do colour grading for films that will be screened in theatres / cinemas. The wide colour space is clipped by premiere.
If so, doing colour grading in Adobe Premiere is not recommendable if one is working with footage that was recorded in colour spaces wider than BT.709. The only solution is to edit in Premiere but not apply any colour correction or grading and export the timeline in a XML format that can be used by a Professional Grading Software such as DaVinci Resolve. !
Is this true?

 

Thank you in advance

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by R_Neil_Haugen | Adobe Community Professional

I just got a reply to my request for information from a color engineer for Premiere Pro, and permission to share ... so here's the full scoop on exporting HDR/wide-gamut from Premiere 2019 ...

Neil

PPro currently is hard-wired to Rec709 – so everything needs to get converted into Rec709 at some point.  But we do this conversion in such a way that we retain the data that is outside the Rec709 gamut – we call this over-range 709.  Grading operations can recover this data, but upon export, detail outside the Rec709 gamut is definitely clipped.  The only way to retain wide gamut data is to choose an HDR output, but this only really suitable for HDR workflows.  I have attached a doc on encoding HDR.  I don’t know of a way to export P3 specifically.

Topics

Effects and Titles

Views

4.7K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more

Adobe Premiere and Colour Gamut limited to BT.709

Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Is it true that if I import video footage shot in a wider colour gamut the BT.709 (such as S-Gamut, S-Gamut3 or S-Gamut3.Cine) , Adobe Premiere will clip the wider colour space to BT.709?
While doing some research I found that if I import footage into Adobe Premiere and drop it in a timeline and if I do any colour grading inside Premiere using the lumetri colour, the colour space will be reduced to BT.709. This made me worry because I shot footage with the Atomos Shogun Inferno and the Sony FS700R which allows to record Sony RAW. When recording I set the Gamut in the Atomos Shogun Inferno to S-Gamut. I know should had use a smaller colour space such S-Gamut3.Cine. But I used what was set by default in the Atomos Recorder. I was planing to do the editing and the colour grading in Premiere CC 2018. But then I read some people saying that if I do grading inside premiere, Adobe Premiere will convert the orignal  colour space to a reduced BT.709.

If this is true, Adobe Premiere is not recommended at all if you want to do colour grading for films that will be screened in theatres / cinemas. The wide colour space is clipped by premiere.
If so, doing colour grading in Adobe Premiere is not recommendable if one is working with footage that was recorded in colour spaces wider than BT.709. The only solution is to edit in Premiere but not apply any colour correction or grading and export the timeline in a XML format that can be used by a Professional Grading Software such as DaVinci Resolve. !
Is this true?

 

Thank you in advance

Adobe Community Professional
Correct answer by R_Neil_Haugen | Adobe Community Professional

I just got a reply to my request for information from a color engineer for Premiere Pro, and permission to share ... so here's the full scoop on exporting HDR/wide-gamut from Premiere 2019 ...

Neil

PPro currently is hard-wired to Rec709 – so everything needs to get converted into Rec709 at some point.  But we do this conversion in such a way that we retain the data that is outside the Rec709 gamut – we call this over-range 709.  Grading operations can recover this data, but upon export, detail outside the Rec709 gamut is definitely clipped.  The only way to retain wide gamut data is to choose an HDR output, but this only really suitable for HDR workflows.  I have attached a doc on encoding HDR.  I don’t know of a way to export P3 specifically.

Topics

Effects and Titles

Views

4.7K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
LEGEND ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The only solution is to edit in Premiere...export the timeline in a XML [for] DaVinci Resolve.

The other (better) option is to do all the work in Resolve.  It's leaps and bounds ahead of PP on Color, but fairly equal for Editing.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I'll put in 2 cents so I can follow the thread. Is interesting.

I don't think it's that easy ( just using Resolve for everything ). For one thing you may have a monitor or two. Let's say you have a good primary monitor ( Eiso or something) and a secondary for more real estate ( I have junk one not used for viewing images, just panels) and a third one ( video ickygamma ) via SDI out of computer. How those monitors are calibrated is very important to your working color space. By default Resolve has input, timeline and export set to rec 709 2.4.  When importing stuff like S log ( or black magic raw ) you can 'assign' it a color space ( like Ari, Red, etc. )… so you'd have to research what you need to VIEW your color space for export to cinema standard and I have no clue what that is.

Generally I think the scopes ( nits in resolve) would give you what you need to stay legal in your range, and you can customize your calibrations to accommodate what you need to be seeing what you get in cinema. No clue what that would be.

No two movie theatres in the entire world will SHOW your movie the SAME COLOR .. just a fact of life, like no 2 TV's will show you exactly the same stuff.  But why get picky ?

hehe, I look forward to following this thread.

Thanks for the post.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Premiere will convert all media on a sequence to 32 bit float for internal processing. With the exception of a few "Obsolete" color tools/effects that very few use.

The scopes scaling in Lumetri are confusing. The standard RGB Parade and Waveform scopes have a right side scale with numbers 0-255, which causes people to think it works in 8 bit "full" or "data" levels.

Wrong. It always processes in 32 but float. Period. The right side scale shows essentially "monitor" values. Set the Waveform scale type to YC, suddenly the right side scale for most formats/codecs is 16-235.

Well, that's still 8 bit, right?

Wrong. The bit depth is whatever the media started as. They just don't have the UI set to change numbers on the screen according to a clip's individual bit depth. You have to know that with 10-bit media the bottom number is actually 64.

On export, the range and bit depth are determined by the format/codec chosen for the export. Use say an image sequence format, you might be exporting 12 bit at whatever dynamic range the original clip possessed.

The export processing is original media/32 bit float/export format-codec. Rec.709 would be involved for any format/codec chosen that by standards is Rec.709.

The problem working with wide gamut media in Pr is the app is set to *display* Rec709 sRGB and gamma 2.4. Clicking the HDR options in the Lumetri header menu and the Scopes menu change the scales for scopes and give you controls for wider range in Lumetri including a fourth color wheel for HDR highs.

However, you have to work from the scopes reading as the program monitor can't properly display HDR imagery.

There are a lot of wider gamut and HDR material edited in Pr. But much as I can do with color in Pr, I would not work wide-gamut or HDR media in Lumetri. That's best done still in an app with controls for color spaces like Resolve or Avid or Baselight.

And yes, they need to add user control of color space/profile and the ability for internal monitors to be set accordingly with the user needs.

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks Neil!

But what about the colour space? Does Premiere clip it to BT.709? For example if the source material was recorded in a colour space such as s-gamut or s-gamut3.cine?
this is my concern. For me is much easier to keep with the workflow and edit all in Premiere and is not much of a problem (I just graded a 6min teaser for funding purposes). So is not a huge problem to do the grading in Resolve. I can send it to a post-production house. But the editing will be much easier for me if I do it in premiere. So I am wondering if I shall keep the editing in premiere (and I will be filming more) or if is a good idea to change now to Resolve and avoid any problems with Premiere and Colour Spaces.

Best regards,

Diogo

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Doesn't go into Rec.709 if you don't export to a Rec.709 format/codec.

Original/32-bit float/export format-codec.

There's a ton of RED and Alexa media edited inPr daily.

Neil

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I just did a test and I dropped in the timeline a ProRes file with S-Gamut3 Colour space. I did not apply any effect. I exported directly without changing the file in the timeline. The export format was ProRes HQ 422. I checked the file that was exported and it did change the colour space to BT.709.

I see different opinions regarding this issue and more than one person told me that premiere will clip wider colour spaces to BT.709 if I apply an effect such as the lumetri colour. But in my test I did not change anything neither applied any effect to the clip in the timeline. But the exported file is in BT.709 color space. I selected export using max bit depth and max quality.

I did the test with Premiere Pro CC 2019.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Things appear to be changing rapidly with all technology including TV's and Computers etc.

In old days TV's hated closed black and hot white. Hence, 16-235 scale. That was safe for old TV's. New TV's can show more than old ones.

The 0-255 number is what your computer monitor ( typical computer monitor ) can display.  It doesn't mind closed black or hot white like old TV's did.

Those numbers and the old IRE scale are changing to meet new stuff, including High Dynamic Range ( HDR) and Wide Gamut cameras and TV's and computer monitors.

PPro cannot SHOW ( in the program viewer or the source viewer ) anything other than REC 709.  It is not clipping the source material. But if you shot wider gamut than that you can't see it no matter WHAT kind of monitor you have.  If you go to resolve you can't SEE a wider gamut there either, unless your monitor is a wide gamut monitor. And that will be limited to specific color stuff and frame rates .. a lot of research necessary to pick the right monitor to edit final grading for cinema projection...

When you have THAT monitor than you can use Resolve and see what you have for real.

If you don't have that monitor you will be limited to the monitor you actually have.  Most monitors ( like mine ) is limited to full HD and Rec 709.  So that's OK, cause I'm never gonna edit a movie for projection.

I do use Resolve, so when I put raw (cinema DNG ) into it I start a new project and tell the program I am using that stuff ( which is raw 12 bit (in this case nothing to do with color bit depth , like 4.2.2. etc. and most raw cameras need to be debayered before it becomes an issue re: color bit depth ..

In my case I just get the flat stupid high dynamic range of the cinema DNG, like pro res looks flat too, right ?? -- and I set my timeline to black magic film setting and I can start doing color stuff.  To Rec 709, which is the only thing my monitor can display.

If you don't have a monitor you can calibrate to something for color work you'll be stuck with adobe RGB ( bad cause that's for printing photos) or sRGB.  You need to calibrate a monitor to be Rec 709.

So first off, you can't see stuff your monitor can't show you.

You can't see anything other than rec 709 using ppro.

People shoot a lot of episodic TV with Arri and Red cameras. TV is rec 709. That's why they can use ppro to do the work.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

rodney, the main question here is not about displaying the wider gamut but maintaining it and not change it. The Atomos Shogun Inferno is an HDR monitor / recorder and I do see differences when I select different gamuts. The BT.709 has less saturation / vibrance. Colors look more flat on screen than for example s-gamut or s-gamut3.cine. And in my editing system I am using a SDI output. I can connect the Atomos Shogun Inferno to the SDI output from my computer. So I think I can monitor the videos in my computer in HDR mode.
I just want to avoid a situation where I start with footage with a gamut suitable for cinema projectors such as s-gamut3.cine and then end up with a file with a reduced colour space such as BT.709. And it seams Premiere is doing this to all footage even if I do not apply any effect to the footage.
I see it like in photoshop. You can work RAW files with a sRGB 8 bit monitor. But Photoshop won´t change the file while editing and you can have more colour information to play with. Then export to whatever you want. Your reference will be 8 bit sRGB but your source is 10bit and is in AdobeRGB 1998 colour space.

And you know you can keep that colour space when you export the file after editing.
The problem with Adobe Premiere is that it seams to convert and clip the colour space to BT.709 and if it does, you may be loosing colour information in the editing stage of your project and when you export it, for example for cinemas, you will be exporting from a reduced colour space to an wider colour space.
This does not make much sense to me. This is why I am wondering if Premiere is a good solution when you want to produce films recorded with hi-end cameras and thinking in cinema distribution.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I wish I had seen the atomos thing. I use the ninja for dslr stuff using DNxHD. It isn't flat like pro res. It's normal for pro res to be flat, and same with S log I had. Some friend sent me some from Delaware (saved as mp4 h264, 4.2.0 ). It was really flat in resolve. I kinda made a couple grades from 2 clips (one for night shots and one for late day ), and applied them to stuff to get in ballpark, which sped things up.

I wish I knew what your atomos is doing when you record and play back where it isn't flat … cause if you have like 14 stops or whatever, it's like impossible for it not to look flat until you start your basic luminance adjustments to lift gamma gain.  Then it gets nice.

Sorry I'm such an idiot, but unless you're really going to project in a cinema movie theatre real soon, just do your work in PPro and I think it will be fine... You won't lose anything, cause all this is non destructive ...your original stuff will always be what you shot.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

how did you deliver that 6 minute teaser ??

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The footage is flat not because of the codec but because of the gamma curve you use (such as s-log2 and s-log3). This is what allows you to get an HDR file and this is why it looks flat. This is due to the gamma curve. But you can have ProRes that is not flat at all if you use for example Rec709 gamma curve.
Then there is the colour space or gamut which is related with colour.
So gamma curve is related with luminance and this is what makes the footage look flat or not and what allows you to have more or less dynamic range.

Gamut or color space is related with how much color information you can get / record / display.
The wider the color gamut the more colors you can get. You can get more colour information and the colours will also look more vivid.

Please check this link

What is S-Gamut? | Sony UK

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It's probably silly of me to say this.. but I'm a retired grip that worked on movies and episodic TV stuff and TV commercials ( film only, not video ). Mostly panaflex and arri when it was film, then mostly alexa when digital came around.  My experience, even with low budget films, is that a lot of money is sorta needed to do that stuff. Like, even just to do the pre production stuff ( after you get financing), like scheduling ( strip boards, etc. ), location scouting, office space and furniture and telephones, tons of things.. then hire crew, rent equipment, and start praying you don't go over budget before the first day of shooting ends.

At that point you'll NEED a post production workflow for dailies and final edit and grading and music and all kinds of stuff, not to mention distribution and advertising, etc.

Not trying to discourage you but no sense getting hung up on this color stuff if you don't have the monitor to see the HDR wide gamut stuff to begin with... do what you can and take it a step at a time...and you'll do great.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

the 6 min teaser will be deliver in a video file. I will send it via internet. But that is not the point because I can send any file. My concern is when doing the grading, if the colour space is reduced inside premiere I am not taking advantage of the full colour I have in the original source files. And the same applies when sending the final version to cinemas. Makes no sense to me to have a wide colour space, reduce it during editing and then try to increase it again for distribution at cinemas.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

as i told before. I do have a HDR monitor and the idea, even if I didn´t have one, is to keep the wide colour space during the editing process. I can always send the final edit for a pos-production house. And it seams that if I edit the film inside premiere I will lose the wide gamut from the source files unless I export in XML. and if I export in XML I will have to deliver all single source files to the post production house. Not just one single file (edited footage)

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Good link re: S log stuff.

OK... then my suggestion is to get yourself a decent wide gamut monitor that has color calibration. NEC makes some that are a couple thousand bucks ( like 27" or something ), and Eiso too. If you're in UK then Eiso is up your alley cause their site points to UK places that sell and service them, etc.  Same deal, can calibrate and do what you want.  Maybe call them just to talk to sales rep or something.

Round tripping from resolve sucks. There are so many stupid things that happen from PPro to Resolve and back. Mainly it's effects, transitions, titles, and stuff like that... basically everything...hehe... but some will of course disagree.

Just do everything in resolve. It will only get better. You're gonna need a real powerful computer with lots of ram and many internal hard drives and set it up right. O.S. and programs on root drive. Source on another. Cache on another. Exports to another ( some could be raid 0 config, like source stuff ).

I learned it using the book (hard copy ) essential stuff about resolve 15 … and you can download the lesson files after you get book. Buy the studio version. B&H sells the cards with the numbers you need for about $300.  It will take a while to get used to the new UI.

Use TWO monitors. Primary is the good one for both source and program viewers. 2nd one can be junky for panels and scopes, etc.

If you don't have 2 monitors you won't like it.  Too crowded and stupid. and only one viewer at a time ( source OR program ).

If you want, stick a black magic 4k extreme pro SDI thing into computer and to to a good reference video ( not computer...real video ) monitor.  It will give you a nice full screen of the the program monitor. You can adjust it to match your desired color space, etc... cause good monitors will have lots of adjustments.  Probably close enough for you to work with it.  Maybe ask eiso people about that if you call them.

should be fun !

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

you're not LOSING the gamut you have from source. You just Can't SEE IT using ppro. The scopes may not be much help either, cause it's not in NITS and uses what Neil told you about … obviously you know that cause you have the program.

If you can't SEE it, then why edit with it if you don't have to. Or else, you're right.. you have to xml it or edl or whatever, along with all files, and pray you didn't edit something into your timeline that screws up the timeline in resolve.

I didn't see that you already have the HDR monitor. You need two for resolve or you'll hate it.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

probably my last post for a while...

this is kinda interesting … and you'll want to get into it ( and deal with the 99% of dci p3 monitors are limited to ) and make decisions.

Color Managed Workflow in Resolve: ACES – Prodicle

There's other links in the article too.  This pertains to Netflix but also is related to cinema.

There's quite a few people doing stuff for projection, using rec 709 2.4, who end up going to cinema projection to do final tweaking ( make notes and go back to editing to fix various things ).. but everything is sorta relative. I'm glad I'm not doing what you're doing cause it's pretty complicated.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Participant ,
Mar 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Soooo, in conclusion....

you need a monitor that can show you what you want to see (4k wide gamut, etc. etc. with DCI P3 for cinema.)

You can't do that with PPro right now.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 24, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

you made me start looking online for cinema dci p3 monitors and I started drooling and wishing I had more money and could buy new cameras and all sorts of crazy stuff.... I was happy before this thread got started. Now I feel sorry for myself...

just kidding...

hehe , good luck !

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...
Guide ,
Mar 25, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It might be wise to read that stuff the link above refers to, so that when you start using Resolve with your material you set it up right when you start a new project for it.

That would probably be AFTER you do the tutorials to learn the program via their book and downloaded files. You'll get a good idea from tutorials how to use the UI for media, edit, fairlight ( sound), fusion (VFX and compositing), and delivery.

The book assumes one monitor so some tool locations are different when using 2 monitors. But if I could do it you sure can.

good luck

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community Guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
Reply
Loading...