captured video from scanned 8mm film

Explorer ,
Mar 18, 2021 Mar 18, 2021

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I have an issue regarding the quality of captured video from a film scanner. Let me post you a background;

In early 2018 a got myself a small film scanner from Reflecta (may possibly also be manufacured as Wolverine) and with great help from Safeharbour11 in this forum, I managed to create a workflow creating a reasonably good result from scanning old 8mm film. In order to get an even better result I've got hold of a used but well kept professional scanner called Flashscan8 from a german firm named MWA. This scanner is outdated by todays standard but should be good enough for me to produce my scanned films on DVD. I use a JVC monitor with a SDI-connection to the scanner to check the running film and a firewire connetion between the scanner and my computer. I capture the film directly into Premiere Pro and here's the problem: The captured film looks out of focus and horisontal lines, or near horisontal lines, become jittery sometimes along with a color error. The film looks crystal clear on my JVC monitor (assuming its crystal clear on the original film) wich, to me, indicates that there's no problem within the scanning process itself. 

This is what I use:

Windows 10 pro 64 bit

Processor AMD Ryzen 7 2700x Eight Core 

RAM 32 GB

Monitor Eizo Color Edge

Flashscan 8 outputs 720x576 lines with 25 f/s and 25 Mbit/s on IEE 1394 (Firewire)

Though the scanning process is progressive, PP regards the film as interlaced when captured, so I change that in the sequence settings to progressive. I have tried to leave it interlaced but there is no difference to the quality other than when useing Neat video the picture is extremely distorted (from expected 4:3 to something like 16:3) but back on the timeline after filtering the aspect ratio is back to expected. 

Much appreciate some help.

 

TOPICS
Error or problem, Import, Performance

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 18, 2021 Mar 18, 2021

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The scanning process is a nonissue. If you used a Firewire device the video is interlaced to PAL specs.

Your scanning method may or may not have had good results. You can drop the video in a 1920 X 1080 60P timeline and resize it as you wish and export at 60P.

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Explorer ,
Mar 19, 2021 Mar 19, 2021

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Hi Andy,

Thnks for your rapid reply. I must admit I don't understand your suggestions. I tried my best to follow and made a new sequence from AVCHD 1080i in order to get the frame size 1920x1080. The 60P bit I didn't follow at all. In Sweden (or Europe if you wish) PAL is associated with 50P and furthermore I couldn't find a place to make that adjustment. I tried this sequence on a few clips but the picture is very small in the program monitor and to resize it to fit I had to zoom in A LOT and the sharpness didn't exactly benefit from that. When useing the Neat Video to reduce noice the picture becomes so stretched in width so it is hard to work with. Have I got everything wrong?? 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 19, 2021 Mar 19, 2021

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Forget about 60p does not apply to Europe or 50p for that matter.

SD PAL is 720x576 25 fps interlaced also noted as 50i.

You are trying to upscale SD to (HD 1080i) which will be very disappointing.

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Explorer ,
Mar 19, 2021 Mar 19, 2021

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Hi Ann,

Thanks for your reply. I must have misenterprited Andy when he suggested dropping the film in a 1920x1080 timeline and resize it. I am certainly not seeking to upscale the 8mm film from SD to HD. Furthermore I print the finished film on DVD so there is no use in trying to make it in HD.

Ok, so after capture I'll go on editing in SD PAL interlaced. Is there a way to make the picture in Neat Video stay as 4:3? It is quite hard to tell the optimal noise reduction when the picture is distorted, wich incidently it was not when I tried working in progressive mode.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 19, 2021 Mar 19, 2021

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quote

Is there a way to make the picture in Neat Video stay as 4:3?


By @P.Daguerre

 

Premiere Pro do sometimes interpret footage incorrect and when that happens or when the end use use a non-matching timeline those things may happen. Make sure that the clip is 720x576 (1.0940) and make sure to edit in a timeline that is DV PAL Standard. 

 

Since the clip is interlaced, make sure to know if the clip is either Lower Field First (LFF) or Upper Field First (UFF). Placing a UFF clip on a timeline that is LFF will give you interlace artifacts. If unsure about the field dominance, open the clip in After Effects to check it. After Effects reads the correct filed dominance almost always while in Premiere Pro it is more of a lottery. 

 

In Premiere Pro i make sure to enable the Preview for a more detailed info about the clip. (See the attached image)

 

Hälsningar från Roger i Sverige! 🙂

 

Averdahl_0-1616169752684.png

 

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Explorer ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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Hej Roger, hälsningar tillbaka till dig!

I have checked and edited as you suggested and it didn't make that much of a difference.

So I still have two issues:

1) Although the film looks perfect on my JVC monitor connected to through SDI to my scanner, it is not perfect when captured into PP. Is the Firewire (IEE 1394) not the ultimate way to get the material into my computer? If so, what is?

2) When working with Neat Video in interlaced mode the preview displays the picture in 720 x 288. After the filter processes are accepted and done,  back on the timeline, the picture goes back to normal 720 x 576. Perhaps this is a question a shall pop to the Neat Video support instead?

 

Peter 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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quote

1) Although the film looks perfect on my JVC monitor connected to through SDI to my scanner, it is not perfect when captured into PP. Is the Firewire (IEE 1394) not the ultimate way to get the material into my computer? If so, what is?


By @P.Daguerre

 

Standard defenition does not look good on the timeline, especially if you are used to working with HD material. The SD material in Premiere Pro would look good if you had a Blackmagic Design Decklink card used to send the signal from Premiere Pro through it´s SDI output to your JVC monitor. Do a test and burn let´s say one minute to DVD, burn it and sit down in the TV sofa and watch it. How does that look?

 

FireWire is a great capture interface but you could gain a tad if you let the scanner feed the signal to  a Blackmagic Design Decklink´s  SDI input and capture uncompressed. It will not double or triple the quality though. Premiere Pro does interpret all SD material from Blackmagic Design as progressive, so you must manually use Interpret Footage in Premiere Pro and set the clips to UFF since all SD material from Blackmagic Design are UFF.

Link: DeckLink | Blackmagic Design

 

quote

2) When working with Neat Video in interlaced mode the preview displays the picture in 720 x 288. After the filter processes are accepted and done,  back on the timeline, the picture goes back to normal 720 x 576. Perhaps this is a question a shall pop to the Neat Video support instead?

 

Peter 


By @P.Daguerre

 

I would contact NeatVideo and give them all details, version of Premiere Pro, version of NeatVideo with a detailed description of the issue.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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Averdahl,

Do you have a Blackmagic Design product or a Firewire based DV converter? The BM products may not work without at TBC. Even if the BMD products worked without at TBC I would not capture uncompressed because the payoff in quality is not worth it when compared to DV-25. 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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Andy,

 

Yes on both, Intensity Pro and Canopus ADVC300. I have experience with the Decklink cards as well. Capturing uncompressed or not is a personal preference. I think it´s worth it with VHS since i get a tad better colors thatn with the DV codec.

 

BMD products do not need or demand a TBC per se. You can capture from video cameras straight into BMD cards, with cameras that do not have TBC. BMD are finky about frame rates, but a Flashscan 8 can be fine tuned and should have no issues spitting out 25 fps continuously. 

 

 

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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Averdahl,

As I stated for some task the Intensity Shuttle needs a TBC. I would be hesitant to recommend the Intensity Shuttle without testing it out first but perhaps that is just me. My thought is the Flashcan8 has Firewire output to DV-25 for a reason.

For game console capture the Intensity Shuttle does not need a TBC because DVD games will not get stretched out like VHS tapes or film.

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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2021 Mar 22, 2021

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Hej Roger,

1) Got it

2) I am just about to to that.

 

Thanks

 

Peter

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Explorer ,
Mar 23, 2021 Mar 23, 2021

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Averdahl,

Hej igen Roger!

Just recieved an answer from Neat Video support. What I described is not a bug of some sort. It is just the way that Neat Video handles interlaced video!

 

Regards/Hälsningar

 

Peter

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 19, 2021 Mar 19, 2021

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In your case 50P would be best for social media but for Blu-ray 50i would be best. The video below will demonstrate a very productive work flow for both options. You will also get to see the video quality of 60P upscaled. You can only upscale so much before human hair looks lke rabbit fur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUxRkPMdA

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Explorer ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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Hi Andy,

Thanks for your thoughts. Blue-ray is not an option for me - its a simple SD-DVD that counts. I have looked at the video you suggested and I'll need to look back into it a couple of times to grasp all the finesse. 

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Guide ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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double check sequence settings and aspect ratio. this isn't brought up much but if the source is interlaced, going to DVD means that you keep interlaced throughout the entire process. there is no de-interlacing since DVD is also an interlaced standard. if you render out to a mezzanine codec, make sure you render out interlaced as well! there's PAL DVD's and NTSC DVD's each which are a little different.

 

also, there's a thing called progressive fields, so double check your capture device uses  25 f/s which i'm guessing is frames per second, so i'd play around with the capture settings to see if its an alternating field(movement changes over time or progressive field(per time interval of movement)

 

You can check this with a quick test, place video into a double the fps composition in after effects. if you click next frame and next frame, see if the movement changes.

 

I'm dubious about the defualt scanning settings because what would be the point of scanning a film frame in interlaced?

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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2021 Mar 22, 2021

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Hi Chris,

 

I share your doubts about the point in scanning a film fram in interlaced mode, but that's the name of the Firewire-game, and once in interlaced mode I stay there the whole process just as you mention in your first paragraph.

 

Peter

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 20, 2021 Mar 20, 2021

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P.Daguerre,

You are welcome.  The most impotant part for you in the video is after the six minute mark. That being said why do you have to use DVDs instead of Blu-ray? 

Placing SD video in 1920 X 1080 timeline and upscaling will not look bad if you don't upscale to much. Keep in mind a DVD will be upscaled to fit the whole screen. It is best to create a Blu-ray disc as opposed to a DVD so you have full control over the quality as seen at the six minute mark in my video. 

If you work with PAL and are exporting for social media then exporting at 50P would be your best bet.

If your work with PAL and want to go to Blu-ray or DV interlaced video is best. Keep in mind editing interlaced video on a computer monitor is not wise. That is where the AJA and BD products come in handy. Interlaced video looks awesome on broadcast compliant hardware. What you see is exactly what you get including motion, color space and composition.





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Explorer ,
Mar 22, 2021 Mar 22, 2021

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Hi Andy,

 

I use SD DVD because Blu-ray isn't very frequent around here.

 

I got your other advices. Thanks

 

Peter

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Explorer ,
Mar 26, 2021 Mar 26, 2021

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I would like to thank all of you who have contributede in finding the right answer to my problem. To quote a person who came out from a lecture somewhere and stated: "I am still confused, but on a higher level". But, this thread has helped me to find the correct answer for me wich follows:

My scanner works in a progressive mode, wich to me seems logical. What comes out in the other end of the firewire is still progressive. What PP does is to regard the clips as interlaced, or transform them if you wish, wich incidently is not what I wish so in the sequence settings I change that to progressive. In this way I don't get any jittering of horisontal or near horisontal lines and the image is sharper. As a fringe benefit the picture in Neat Video is displayed as a full frame, in my case 720x576 and much easier to work with than when it is displayed  interlaced 720x288. When it comes to exporting I choose uncompressed AVI to a program that can create an iso-fil or burn to disk.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 26, 2021 Mar 26, 2021

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If Premiere sees the clips as interlaced go up to modify clip and interpret to progressive and drop them in a progressive timeline.

Exporting to uncompressed AVI will give huge files.

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Adobe Community Professional ,
Mar 26, 2021 Mar 26, 2021

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I think you are getting confused. I doubt it is progressive if the Flashscan 8 outputs 720x576 lines with 25 f/s and 25 Mbit/s on IEEE 1394 (Firewire). Sounds like it is PAL DV-25 codec and broadcast compliant. Progressive SD was never broadcast compliant so I doubt the Flashscan 8 outputs in progressive mode. How could you have played progressive video on your TV 19 years ago? 18 years ago video equipment tended to stay broadcast compliant knowing people will see the end result on thier TV not a computer. Don't be fooled by your computer monitor and Neat Video. Interlaced video never looks good on the computer screen but if you played the intelaced video out to broadcast comlaint hardware (burned a DVD) it would look awesome. AJA and BD make 3rd party products for a reason. Neat video displays at 288 because it is eliminating the upper or lower field. You are not seeing what your end result will look like on broadcast compliant hardware without 3rd party hardware.

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